LL Reaches Out on PBR

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

15 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Because you're contrasting the social aspects with the technical ones. Some have a talent for the one and not the other. Same as some are good at math and some are good at languages but it is rare for one to be proficient at both.

All you're doing here is advocating that people participate without wanting to do or understand the bare minimums of what's involved in participating, though. If anything, that harms them more than anyone else.

Nobody's asking users to identify BUS speeds or know the math of voltage to CPU hertz.

I don't think "post your system specs, let's see what we can improve" is some kind of complex, insurmountable hurdle that we need to shield people from.

But Paul, we need a SL Wiki everyone can understand.  I'm envisioning a Wiki where Happy Harry in huge, colorful mascot form, utters in chat bubble:

"Now don't forget folks, blow out your dust bunnies once a month"!!

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

All you're doing here is advocating that people participate without wanting to do or understand the bare minimums of what's involved in participating, though. If anything, that harms them more than anyone else.

Nobody's asking users to identify BUS speeds or know the math of voltage to CPU hertz.

I don't think "post your system specs, let's see what we can improve" is some kind of complex, insurmountable hurdle that we need to shield people from.

Performance on various generations of NVidia's seems all over the place from reading here and over on Reddit, with users reporting good and bad results on cards like 3050, 3060, 3080 and even a couple of 4090's. Then others having no issues with cards like 1070's and 2060's.

I'm advocating the Lab get its a** in gear and put out PBR code that has some reliability in how it will perform on various cards so I can determine what card I should buy next. At this point I am in the dark and doubting those who proclaim newer is better. I have a number of different computers to test on and yet there seems little rhyme or reason for what will be acceptable and what won't be. Anyone claiming different is just seemingly lucky or unlucky whether it works for them or doesn't.

I've dealt with enough people to know that no matter how many times you tell or show them what a browser is, what a folder is and on and on, they will not remember it the next time because they simply don't have a head that can wrap around digital. Yet these same people are very intelligent and talented in other areas of life that I don't understand.

Bottom line is you need to accept the fact that we all have differing talents and that one should not need to know the ins and outs of computer equipment for what is supposed to be a pleasurable pastime. The onus is on the Lindens to program the viewer and recommend computer equipment that can handle it or they need to find someone who does and pay them rather then relying on the free advice on the forum or volunteers on FS.

[Paul Hexem]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Performance on various generations of NVidia's seems all over the place from reading here and over on Reddit, with users reporting good and bad results on cards like 3050, 3060, 3080 and even a couple of 4090's. Then others having no issues with cards like 1070's and 2060's.

I'm advocating the Lab get its a** in gear and put out PBR code that has some reliability in how it will perform on various cards so I can determine what card I should buy next. At this point I am in the dark and doubting those who proclaim newer is better. I have a number of different computers to test on and yet there seems little rhyme or reason for what will be acceptable and what won't be. Anyone claiming different is just seemingly lucky or unlucky whether it works for them or doesn't.

I've dealt with enough people to know that no matter how many times you tell or show them what a browser is, what a folder is and on and on, they will not remember it the next time because they simply don't have a head that can wrap around digital. Yet these same people are very intelligent and talented in other areas of life that I don't understand.

Bottom line is you need to accept the fact that we all have differing talents and that one should not need to know the ins and outs of computer equipment for what is supposed to be a pleasurable pastime. The onus is on the Lindens to program the viewer and recommend computer equipment that can handle it or they need to find someone who does and pay them rather then relying on the free advice on the forum or volunteers on FS.

Wanting LL to get their act together is like betting on winning the lottery.

In the mean time, there's no harm in getting people to understand what kind of computer they have and what it's suited for.

Edited August 26 by Paul Hexem

[Zalificent Corvinus]

13 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

with users reporting good and bad results on cards like 3050, 3060, 3080 and even a couple of 4090's.

Some 3050's are closer to being 3030's, some 3060's are practically 3050's, some 3080's are about on par with a 3060.

They have even done this to some 40x0 series cards. Watch the video on this I posted earlier.

 

NVidia have a habit of releasing multiple cards, with different specs, but EXACTLY the same name, and that's before you even consider the "mobile" versions which can often be a grade or two below the performance implied by the name.

 

So the user THINKS they have a 3060, like the person boasting of "good FPS", but the users 3060, is a cut down cloned name card, and the mobile version at that, so it's more like a 3010.

And without knowing about ram types, and buffer sizes, and bus width, and how many microns used in production etc., they have NO ideas why their "3060" isn't giving them the same FPS as some tech-fail forum guru bragging about "leet performance".

 

Edited August 26 by Zalificent Corvinus

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

LL getting their act together is like betting on winning the lottery.

In the mean time, there's no harm in getting people to understand what kind of computer they have and what it's suited for.

Except that in terms of performance in SL, very few know for sure except for their own personal machine. I could tell you what works for me but it is no guarantee that if you have the exact same setup, it will give you the same performance.

[Paul Hexem]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Except that in terms of performance in SL, very few know for sure except for their own personal machine. I could tell you what works for me but it is no guarantee that if you have the exact same setup, it will give you the same performance.

All the more reason to empower people to understand what they've got.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Paul Hexem said:

All the more reason to empower people to understand what they've got.

And you'll fail and just be beating your head in frustration. Been there, got the head dents.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Performance on various generations of NVidia's seems all over the place from reading here and over on Reddit, with users reporting good and bad results on cards like 3050, 3060, 3080 and even a couple of 4090's. Then others having no issues with cards like 1070's and 2060's.

Yes the results seem to vary wildly, in fact they vary in almost proportional wildness to the variety of complexity of places, content and avatars that you'll find in SL.  It's almost as if there might be some correlation between performance issues and the sheer amount of content that a user expects their hardware to cope with or the types of places they frequent or activities they participate in. 🤔

Edited August 26 by Fluffy Sharkfin
typo

[Flea Yatsenko]

1 hour ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

There's a lot of truth in your post but, while I agree that the vast majority of SL users are now "consumer brained" rather than being interested in creating things for themselves, I still don't see the harm in having more "building blocks" for people who are interested in "crafting" to play with.  You may never be able to recapture the spirit of creativity that residents had back in the early days (and even then I knew plenty of people who never so much as tweaked a prim or linked two of them together) but perhaps if there were more people posting pics of content they've pieced together saying "Hey, look at this cool thing I made!" it would attract just a few more new residents that think "Hmm, that does look cool, I want to try making something too!".

The entire internet has become more consumer brained. The most popular devices on the internet are phones that can't really create much content besides pictures and videos.

[AmeliaJ08]

54 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Yes the results seem to vary wildly, in fact they vary in almost proportional wildness to the variety of complexity of places, content and avatars that you'll find in SL.  It's almost as if there might be some correlation between performance issues and the sheer amount of content that a user expects their hardware to cope with or the types of places they frequent or activities they participate in. 🤔

Hehe, you got it

Series of Nvidia card doesn't matter too much, I'm sure some of the specifications of each GPU are responsible some of the performance variation in SL but yeah, the different results are because we're all using different settings, visiting different places and quite possibly running different drivers and even different operating systems entirely. It is also the case that the engine is not good at exploiting the available resources, a mid range GPU produces embarrassingly similar results to a very high end GPU in Second Life simply because a lot of the limitations are on the engine.

To get geeky: I hesitate to say it but I suspect a 3000ish shader core (for example) 10 series GPU probably performs very similarly to a 3000ish shader core 30 or 40 series GPU in Second Life. It might not be identical due to some other architectural changes and improvements like faster memory etc between the generations but given this is OpenGL and given we're not really using any of the fancy features of any of these GPUs that are limited to more modern graphics APIs the results will probably be similar.

 

Edited August 26 by AmeliaJ08

[Charlotte Bartlett]

4 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Box building and other components

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Box-building-and-other-components/5818177

 

Already available, FREE, courtesy of the forum's own @Chaser Zaks.

 

I like these!

Perhaps LL could work with @Chaser Zaks to incorporate these into the build menu (with credit) in the viewer if both agreed (and if it didn't make the viewer fall over). 

 

3 hours ago, Orwar said:

   This guy and his pitchfork disagrees! Mostly just for the sake of disagreement. It's kind of what he was made for. Um. I kind of forgot what I meant to say with it though, but hey, 3 minutes of having fun with prims - go me!

I have a script if you want his head to follow you as you walk near him - just to really take it up a retro notch!  (I like him)  

 

Edited August 26 by Charlotte Bartlett

[HeathcliffMontague]

4 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

I don't think "post your system specs, let's see what we can improve" is some kind of complex, insurmountable hurdle that we need to shield people from.

It certainly shouldn't be. But it has become sort of a flex and a put-down too. Things have gotten a bit... weird

Edited August 26 by HeathcliffMontague

[Nagachief Darkstone]

20 hours ago, gwynchisholm said:

I feel like just the other lighting settings like shadows and stuff do a lot more to negatively impact performance than PBR does

Example, heres a place that is oriented around PBR content with all the fancy settings turned off, no reflections, no mirrors, no shadows, etc

and here it is with all those settings turned on

PBR materials and stuff are hard carrying making this look good, with very little impact on performance compared to the lighting, i get like 50fps in this scene with all the lighting and reflection stuff turned off, and maybe 10-15 with it on, and it still looks really good at 50fps with all the lighting off because of the PBR objects

i try not to think of it like, PBR is tanking performance, i think its more like you can really reduce a lot of other settings that more heavily impact performance, and the game will still look pretty good because of PBR

 

context:

"CPU: Intel(R) N100 (806.388 MHz)
Memory: 8015 MB (Used: 4768 MB)
Concurrency: 4
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 8.1 64-bit (Build 9600)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750 Ti/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 4009 MB
Graphics Card Memory (Detected): 4009 MB
Graphics Card Memory (Budget): Unlimited

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 30.0.14.7212
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 472.12"

This is not a fancy computer, i got rid of the fancy computer because it was a waste of time, money and electricity. And im staring at PBR stuff and having no issues. Im not really understanding where this gripe about the performance impact is coming from, because im barely seeing it. If this nugget of a computer is playing SL fine, what on earth are some of you playing on?

 

I feel like this isn't a very good example, I can tell there are no manual reflection probes in this scene, else there would be a pretty dramatic change in the image otherwise.

I do have better examples.

Probe Coverage None + Shadows

Probe Coverage Manual/Everything + Shadows

And since my home scene has specgloss materials as well since it has existed before PBR:

Non-PBR Viewer

PBR Viewer

[HeathcliffMontague]

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

New users will never know anything EXCEPT post-PBR Second Life.

 

Yeah, most likely not. So there is that.

[WeFlossDaily]

14 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

And that closed-minded, dogmatic attitude is exactly why I don't really have much interest in your opinion on the subject.

I'm just going to take dogmatic as a compliment and discard the rest.

[WeFlossDaily]

13 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

There are viewers that allow PBR and forward rendering to coexist, and the main viewer you actually use doesn't have PBR at all. Perhaps your time would be better spent trying to convince the maker of that viewer to continue to support forward rendering.

Unless your efforts were of a type that would inspire the maker to not continue to support it out of personal spite, that is...

 

They don't like me, either.

[Ksenia Elcano]

15 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Of course you didn't, nobody ever does.  Everyone loves to sit around and berate LL for every idea they have while conveniently sidestepping the fact that they don't personally have any ideas at all about what LL should do to solve the problem.

Not true. Many people have posted ideas about what LL should do to solve the problem. A couple of people people posted LL needs to advertise more. One person specifically mentioned posting in AARP.

 LL should focus on what captivated people in the past to join and remain in SL, which is the social aspects and work on enhancing that. If they can't get people to provide the social interaction, then substitute for it with AI. I saw one report that LL is working on AI mentors. That's a move in a generally promising direction, but should be focused on AI companions.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Ksenia Elcano said:

One person specifically mentioned posting in AARP.

This is a great idea! "MEET LONELY SENIORS AROUND THE WORLD!"

[Extrude Ragu]

8 minutes ago, Ksenia Elcano said:

One person specifically mentioned posting in AARP.

I had to look that up. American Association of Retired Persons.

Second Life has been around for a while and so it has a lot of oldbies, but I also think that the vast majority of people who signed up were not old when they signed up and probably didn't want to live in a retirement home.

I am not sure marketing this place as a virtual  retirement home will really be the marketing win that draws in the crowds.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I am not sure marketing this place as a virtual  retirement home will really be the marketing win that draws in the crowds.

It might help retain the ones already here! 👵

[Ksenia Elcano]

10 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I am not sure marketing this place as a virtual  retirement home will really be the marketing win that draws in the crowds.

I agree, and I don't think advertising to any demographic will solve SL's problems because the product is bad. At this point, SL is basically a Microsoft Zune. No amount of advertising will save it; the product must first be made desirable, and adding PBR is not going to improve SL's desirability.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

7 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

There's a lot of truth in your post but, while I agree that the vast majority of SL users are now "consumer brained" rather than being interested in creating things for themselves, I still don't see the harm in having more "building blocks" for people who are interested in "crafting" to play with.  You may never be able to recapture the spirit of creativity that residents had back in the early days (and even then I knew plenty of people who never so much as tweaked a prim or linked two of them together) but perhaps if there were more people posting pics of content they've pieced together saying "Hey, look at this cool thing I made!" it would attract just a few more new residents that think "Hmm, that does look cool, I want to try making something too!".

To me it's not spirit, it's the fundamental platform strategy.   I never post the sky is falling as I do think SL can continue on with the revenue levels they have based on region number without too much effort.  I am passionate about it however, as there is so much we could be and do with what started out as Ruth and the cod piece guy (that's how we come about right?)...

This isn't directed at you but generally my soapbox today for some reason has been activated.

I don't think even if you made large improvements you can generate enough crafters to come back into world or find it anew. Even pictures would not likely generate much of an uptick as the community is so thin around inworld crafting and folk then hear blender - and back to what I first posted.  

A few yes for sure, but many crafters became "creators" who sold things.   If you can't sell crafts at the end point,  because it cannot compete with externally made content from creators, that's one more pathway that doesn't evolve for some folk (e.g. to cover land costs, or investment into SL) so the limitation continues to a subset of users and the numbers remain low.

It doesn't matter what new build tool you add, or slice tool etc.  It may move numbers a little, but it is not going to feed the machine enough to bring in a new generation of users who get the spark but then stay.    I mean could LL do in-world build competitions with meaningful prizes (free year's premium plus), provide free regions on a lottery once a year to 20 crafters who apply to create best in region show with only inworld tools and gasp just textures from the library (that would be brutal LOL ok first part of that to coincide with an annual update to the textures in library)....

Now if we revert to the problem of crafting - the feeding of the machine is becoming a monster for creators.  2010,  A prim house - 1 day done I was a crafting wizard yes it was white, yes probably from most directions it looks like a cube with a pool, but it was fun!

Do not read the next paragraph unless you really want to:

2024, a mesh home, with oh god what to make this week, style, poll customers, ideas, then build it, with the two versions of materials, the custom LODS, the ***** ups (yes I said that) and fixes, the probes, the bit you then missed again between two material slots and the complexity, scripting bits, lights wait do I put lights in this one, those need scripts and set up, the boxing, the drop boxing, the caspervending, the vendors reset, wait upload the images now I have to resize, a logo, details we need details people what is the LI, then the event fees, the event set up, the photography, now the new batch of EEPs I need time to make custom clouds, new lighting settings,  as folk are having lighting issues with the P word, the twelve different social media posts and now another new internal one starting with Prim (oh that really kicks), the customer questions, oh god it needs to now go on marketplace and I need to move the store around to fit this one in, the genuine support needed from customers "what is EEP, what is PBR, what is this doing etc as LL doesn't well - have that channel" , the need for updates, the "can't this be free questions (weekly)", the update to another ***** up you noticed due to fixing the first ***** up and then redelivery to customers, , then wait oh crap  I need to feed the machine again next week I have to start now now now. 

You can resume reading here:

Well that 1 day is now a week and what insane hobbyist sells a house for 33 cents to a tiny user base for a week's work?   (Yes me but I am weirdo and still gently enjoy making things).  Why can't we sell them for 33 dollars and profit! - well guess what we can't,  because the solo creator cannot compete with the folk who brought in poorly made off the shelf content (because it looks pretty with 239043024930249 verts and 400 x 1024 textures so must be "quality" as they zero'd out all the LODs bar high) and they can't compete with the folk who had 12 offshore freelancers working for 20 bucks a custom model that they slap their own label on and if you don't put in a weekend sale, the 4 people who visit your four costly regions to show all the demo's you have, can't cover that cost to LL and the cut they take for Lindex and marketplace and any cash out,    

All that pain is directly linked to opening the platform to imported mesh in 2011. And even if we then use normal pricing after sales, the marketplace is so broken even a brand like mine that has been doing this for 18 years and has some recognition with a very loyal (and kind) following  (yes I started SL at age 5) barely get found.  Fashion folk have similar issues but higher profits (perhaps I should do fashion!).

That's the reality of a crafter who now creates these days and sells for profit is that above.  So perhaps that profit bit is the issue too.

Now if I was ScarletCreative Linden for a day, I would say forget the Sansar's and shiny and go for wait for it..... SL2000!   They could connect with nostalgia and the charm of retro and have a prime focus on in-world creation, crafting and collaboration. Social interactions and shared experiences are what originally made SL special, I truly believe and we all navigated the inworld learning experience as it was level for all.  

I mostly jest on SL2000 but I don't think unless all the small incremental ideas are aligned to a specific strategy to bring in the new generation (and was that is that the mobile version?) the machine is going to run out of purchasers (we won't run out of historical content though for sure).

[WeFlossDaily]

19 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

I don't think even if you made large improvements you can generate enough crafters to come back into world or find it anew.

/me admires your impressive wall of text.

I like the idea of adding more build tools for the average user. I don't think LL needs to change any of the existing ones. But it probably couldn't hurt to add some new ones.

For example: The poser/animator made by Black Dragon and adopted by Alchemy is a great example of cool and useful tools made more available to the average user. And it didn't require a ton of work on the part of LL to even make happen. Black Dragon just had to figure out how to get them to permit it, which they did.

Any type of simplified mesh-building or simple-rigging tool that would make building more accessible to the average user would likely be greeted with a good response by the community at large.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 hours ago, WeFlossDaily said:

Any type of simplified mesh-building or simple-rigging tool

And after tackling HARD stuff like that with ease, LL could do some easy things like discover cold fusion power, cure cancer, and invent faster than light space warp technology, all in time for SL22B next summer!

 

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

the solo creator cannot compete with the folk who brought in poorly made off the shelf content (because it looks pretty with 239043024930249 verts and 400 x 1024 textures so must be "quality" as they zero'd out all the LODs bar high) and they can't compete with the folk who had 12 offshore freelancers working for 20 bucks a custom model that they slap their own label on

I didn't know that was happening specifically with homes. I wish I knew who was doing that and I wouldn't buy from them, no matter how nice the home. To relax I buy various homes and decorate, then live in them awhile to chill-out from other SL activities.

I've always wished there was some way to support only the true residents of SL, those part of the community, and not those who just shovel stuff in to sell, money-making being their only concern.

However people have said on this very forum  "I just buy what I like" with no regard for creators. In fact it seems quite often creators are now placed in the same category as LL (perceiving both as a type of corporation trying to take advantage of them or extract as much as possible from them, and so they feel no qualms about sucking as much as possible from these faceless entities).

The creator community of long ago is mostly gone, too often replaced by crass commercialism.

One hope I see though, regarding creativity and those you call 'crafters', is all the people who are amazingly creative as they go about assembling their homes and gardens. They use mesh created by others, but still what they do is a creative skill (interior/exterior design), and often overlooked by many.

Edited August 27 by Luna Bliss