Regarding privacy and legality of products sold on Marketplace

[Solar Legion]

1 hour ago, SandorWren said:

IM you inworld about this? What? Why not use forum messaging?

 

7 minutes ago, Caitlin Tobias said:

I have no idea....(not that I would have answered it in a forum message either). I always find it odd to get told off in an IM inworld, when it's about a forum thread. I prefer to keep it here.

Taking Forum things in world is one of the things I cover in my signature section here. As far as Forum PMs go? Want to explain yourself? Fine. Keep it civil enough. Want to continue your rant from a thread/hurl insults and such? Do not bother.

[SandorWren]

19 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

 

Taking Forum things in world is one of the things I cover in my signature section here. As far as Forum PMs go? Want to explain yourself? Fine. Keep it civil enough. Want to continue your rant from a thread/hurl insults and such? Do not bother.

I don't believe in taking forum grievances inworld. I meant that forum disagreements should stay on the forums. Whether it be public, or in PM. And yes, it should be civil. No point in sending someone a PM just to hurl insults. That defeats the entire purpose in my mind. It should be to resolve an issue, not add to it.

 

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

This issue probably best left to PMs instead of the open board or maybe lodge a support ticket if the issue with the Resident in question is serious. I see this thread heading to Fire 13 in the Mod area.

[Sid Nagy]

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

A lesson here -- if you expect a merchant to help you with a product don't call them an arrogant c**t or tell them to go F themselves!   Merchants are less inclined to help you then! LOL

I'd say very few would ignore such abuse and honor the request.

No, I would go F myself.
😂

[Kore Jardberg]

11 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i wonder why somebody starts a topic ánd another one takes over the conversation... 

Her messages were capped early on yes, she will be answering in a few hours when (and if, depending on the capping) she's allowed to. Not sure what's the exact rank vs number of messages per day relation. The discussion didn't seem to head in a productive direction to me although other contributors started bringing more interesting contributions later on. We do know each other and I'm familiar with the issue at hand: the product does vanish after a few seconds being worn, redelivery didn't change anything so I assume there is a blacklisting happening on a remote object or server. She received IMs and DMs regarding this and could engage in conversations regarding what happened, so even with all that gossip and nonsense going on, I don't think posting this here was a complete waste of time.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Kore Jardberg said:

Not sure what's the exact rank vs number of messages per day relation.

It's not a "rank" . If you are "new to the forum", then you are only allowed a few posts until some "timer" resets, to prevent automated SPAM from new accounts.  After that time period, then more messages are allowed.  Before long, you get "unlimited messages".

[Kore Jardberg]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

It's not a "rank" . If you are "new to the forum", then you are only allowed a few posts until some "timer" resets, to prevent automated SPAM from new accounts.  After that time period, then more messages are allowed.  Before long, you get "unlimited messages".

Ok thanks for clarifying. Anti-SPAM does make sense yeah.

[Marianne Little]

1 hour ago, Kore Jardberg said:

------------- redelivery didn't change anything so I assume there is a blacklisting happening on a remote object or server. -------

If she tried a redelivery already, we can cross off the option that the product became broken when she tried all the buttons on the HUD.

Merchants in SL does not have 24/7 customer service, they are mostly one or two persons, and they need to sleep and eat, and such things as spend some time out in RL with friends.

 For the unlucky customers, they can wait several days, or maybe never get a reply.

I did not read the transcript, did it include the first messages or only the final one? @Rowan Amore?

If the merchant logged in after waking up, and had a long list of IM's from same customer getting nastier and nastier... Then maybe we can understand that she responded a bit curt.

Merchants on the Marketplace can flag a review, and if the review is calling the seller a stupid c*** , never buy from this b****, LL would take it down. I belive that's what happened. LL removes reviews that contains profanities. I have read many reviews about bad customer service that does not have profanities, so LL let them stay if it is written in a more controlled language.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I belive it is possible to make a script that let the seller control the product after it is sold, and disable the product.

I am not sure HOW... But I am certain a "kill switch" can be made.

I think it is wrong to disable a product you have sold because somebody leaves a bad review, justified or not.

To destroy the product you sold and got payment for, that sounds like really, really petty revenge.

She have already did what she can and submitted a ticket to LL. But LL never do anything about disputes between residents, so I would be very surprised if LL makes the creator give you back your money.

[discussionbot]

3 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

She have already did what she can and submitted a ticket to LL. But LL never do anything about disputes between residents, so I would be very surprised if LL makes the creator give you back your money.

I know the narrative of ‘LL doesn’t get involved’ is frequently quoted and often true, but surely if there’s some form of creator malpractice on their own marketplace they should take a look into it. Especially for products rendered useless for no good (assuming) reason, after paying for it. 

[Kore Jardberg]

7 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

If she tried a redelivery already, we can cross off the option that the product became broken when she tried all the buttons on the HUD.

Merchants in SL does not have 24/7 customer service, they are mostly one or two persons, and they need to sleep and eat, and such things as spend some time out in RL with friends.

 For the unlucky customers, they can wait several days, or maybe never get a reply.

I did not read the transcript, did it include the first messages or only the final one? @Rowan Amore?

If the merchant logged in after waking up, and had a long list of IM's from same customer getting nastier and nastier... Then maybe we can understand that she responded a bit curt.

Merchants on the Marketplace can flag a review, and if the review is calling the seller a stupid c*** , never buy from this b****, LL would take it down. I belive that's what happened. LL removes reviews that contains profanities. I have read many reviews about bad customer service that does not have profanities, so LL let them stay if it is written in a more controlled language.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I belive it is possible to make a script that let the seller control the product after it is sold, and disable the product.

I am not sure HOW... But I am certain a "kill switch" can be made.

I think it is wrong to disable a product you have sold because somebody leaves a bad review, justified or not.

To destroy the product you sold and got payment for, that sounds like really, really petty revenge.

She have already did what she can and submitted a ticket to LL. But LL never do anything about disputes between residents, so I would be very surprised if LL makes the creator give you back your money.

I personally have never heard of that store before, it could seem it's a one person project. It's not a popular product. The full conversation between the OP and the seller was included in the original post and was apparently removed by moderation. I disagree with Rowan statement that the OP is responsible alone for the tone of the conversation, I do think the seller did mock her inability to find how to use the HUD by herself and should have seen it coming. The seller does sound arrogant in the full conversation. I guess it's a matter of interpretation though, I can see why Rowan would have a different analysis. No, the review was not included in the original post. And yes, regarding LL (non) involvement in MP issues, I also have submitted support tickets in the past and they couldn't care less, just keeping the 10% MP fee and sweeping the problem under the carpet. Not sure they could sustain such a business in Europe for long before getting fined as a business.

[Rowan Amore]

9 minutes ago, Kore Jardberg said:

I can see why Rowan would have a different analysis

And why would that be?

I did stipulate that the creator did seem a bit short with the OP asking why they did a certain thing.  The OP seemingly fixed whatever issue they had by simply getting a redelivery of the product BEFORE the creator contacted them.  

The creator asked why they reset the HUD.  The OP replied..."well, that's what happens when you expect your customers to wander in the buttons to find their role". Downhill from there.

The creator's reply was a bit short to that comment as I said.  Up until then, it was all good.  Then more remarks from the OP about customers not being mind readers and telling the creator they were just bad at documentation.  The creator remarks that if they listened to every suggestion,.they might as well just have 2 big buttons that say Get Hard and C**.

Then ensues the arrogant c*** comment from the OP and Go F Yourself.

Nowhere did I say the creator had the right to disable a product.  I do, however, understand their knee jerk reaction after being called a c***.

[Rick Nightingale]

53 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I am not sure HOW... But I am certain a "kill switch" can be made.

Yes, quite easy. Just needs to contact an external webserver when it's rezzed and if the server replies with "kill yourself", the script does whatever it likes to the object. The script would pass the avatar's UUID to the server for the check.

If it's no-mod, there's nothing the owner could do to stop every copy doing that as soon as it's rezzed/worn. Rezzing in a script-disabled parcel would temporarily stop it on that copy of the object, but only while there.

I've written external server code for stuff, like trackers (legitimate ones, like an SL GPS for sailors), and my own vendor system. It's not hard at all for a programmer to do stuff like that.

I have to add... if a seller did something like that, they should absolutely be named and shamed and never be bought from again. No matter how rude the buyer was, there's no excuse to effectively steal the product back off them.

Edited August 16 by Rick Nightingale

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Rick Nightingale said:

Yes, quite easy. Just needs to contact an external webserver when it's rezzed and if the server replies with "kill yourself", the script does whatever it likes to the object. The script would pass the avatar's UUID to the server for the check.

If it's no-mod, there's nothing the owner could do to stop every copy doing that as soon as it's rezzed/worn. Rezzing in a script-disabled parcel would temporarily stop it on that copy of the object, but only while there.

I've written external server code for stuff, like trackers (legitimate ones, like an SL GPS for sailors), and my own vendor system. It's not hard at all for a programmer to do stuff like that.

And it happens by accident.

I (and many others) discovered a few years ago that the HUDs for the hair we had bought from a particular, relatively popular hair creator, had stopped functioning. It appears that the HUDs had been "calling home," and that whatever web resource it had been using to do so was no longer functional -- so the HUDs just "broke."

That particular creator offered "fixed" versions of all the broken hair via redelivery.

So long as the object or its HUD is connecting to something external, I'd say that deliberately breaking something is pretty trivial.

[Kore Jardberg]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

And why would that be?

I did stipulate that the creator did seem a bit short with the OP asking why they did a certain thing.  The OP seemingly fixed whatever issue they had by simply getting a redelivery of the product BEFORE the creator contacted them.  

The creator asked why they reset the HUD.  The OP replied..."well, that's what happens when you expect your customers to wander in the buttons to find their role". Downhill from there.

The creator's reply was a bit short to that comment as I said.  Up until then, it was all good.  Then more remarks from the OP about customers not being mind readers and telling the creator they were just bad at documentation.  The creator remarks that if they listened to every suggestion,.they might as well just have 2 big buttons that say Get Hard and C**.

Then ensues the arrogant c*** comment from the OP and Go F Yourself.

Nowhere did I say the creator had the right to disable a product.  I do, however, understand their knee jerk reaction after being called a c***.

Not sure how much can be quoted here since the conversation was removed but since you insist on quoting this IM, I will suggest you read above the lines you mentioned. The seller said "everything is labeled" after she asked for a proper documentation. Then the reaction of the seller to her using the reset button is definitely weird, to say the least: the seller makes it look as if it didn't make sense to reset the HUD. Why would you add a button for it on your HUD if it shouldn't be used? If I have a bug in a HUD, I think it's pretty standard to try to reset it if other methods didn't work. Since the seller didn't provide any documentation, the OP had to go and try buttons on her own.

Regarding the rest of your post, I didn't suggest you said the creator had the right to disable a product, but if I did, please point me to the post and I will gladly edit it to make myself more clear. What I understood from your words is that you condemn the OP insults and this is why I said I saw why you would have a different analysis. I maintain this is subject to subjective interpretation though.

[Rick Nightingale]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It appears that the HUDs had been "calling home," and that whatever web resource it had been using to do so was no longer functional -- so the HUDs just "broke."

Yeah... that's really poor (or nasty!) programming. The default action if the call back doesn't arrive should be to just carry on regardless, not fail.

[Rowan Amore]

Just demoed the product.  I was able to retexture it within 5 minutes.  Clicking each button (they are NOT labeled as the hud is very small) brought me to the texture section where I could make a choice of how to texture...bom, Velour, and a couple of others.  Also an input section for RBG values.  Nothing I haven't seen before on numerous HUDs.    There is, as mentioned, no documentation on the website as to what the buttons are but clicking each one let me know what they did.

The OP seemed to be ok once they had a redelivery but was upset that the hud wasn't as easy as they would have liked.  That's ok.  I hated the Genus HUD even AFTER reading the documentation.  We all have issues with one thing or another.  

38 minutes ago, Kore Jardberg said:

egarding the rest of your post, I didn't suggest you said the creator had the right to disable a product, but if I did, please point me to the post and I will gladly edit it to make myself more clear.

My only response to you directly was the first line.  The rest was for others who mentioned disabling it was bad business which I do agree with but completely understand why the seller was upset and did so.

Edited August 16 by Rowan Amore

[Istelathis]

/me stands from a distance, waiting in anticipation

 

Forum fight!

[SandorWren]

3 hours ago, Kore Jardberg said:

Her messages were capped early on yes, she will be answering in a few hours when (and if, depending on the capping) she's allowed to. Not sure what's the exact rank vs number of messages per day relation. The discussion didn't seem to head in a productive direction to me although other contributors started bringing more interesting contributions later on. We do know each other and I'm familiar with the issue at hand: the product does vanish after a few seconds being worn, redelivery didn't change anything so I assume there is a blacklisting happening on a remote object or server. She received IMs and DMs regarding this and could engage in conversations regarding what happened, so even with all that gossip and nonsense going on, I don't think posting this here was a complete waste of time.

How does this work?  Public Forum messages can be capped?

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, SandorWren said:

How does this work?  Public Forum messages can be capped?

New forumites are restricted to 5 posts.

[Kore Jardberg]

1 minute ago, SandorWren said:

How does this work?  Public Forum messages can be capped?

Yes, apparently this happens to people newly joining the forum to avoid SPAM someone said above.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, SandorWren said:

How does this work?  Public Forum messages can be capped?

Noobs are restricted to the number of posts for a while, not sure of the specifics.

Everyone else can post once every thirty seconds

Edited August 16 by BilliJo Aldrin
added a line

[Arielle Popstar]

31 minutes ago, Kore Jardberg said:

Yes, apparently this happens to people newly joining the forum to avoid SPAM someone said above.

Some days you'd think that they should apply that restriction to senior high volume posters. 😏

[Rick Nightingale]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Some days you'd think that they should apply that restriction to senior high volume posters. 😏

I can hear the gnashing of teeth in my head now, if that were to happen 🤣

[TrishAce]

A shame that the hostility between people in the comments is taking away from the topic.

Items being potentially rendered unusable either via controlled means or servers going offline is something I feel isn't considered or talked about often enough.

The former, what OP experienced, shouldn't even exist in my opinion (unless you are refunded).

As for servers going offline, it would at least be nice to require some transparency from creators.  Some are obvious and more transparent about it (such as anything with a web portal, you would expect the product to be worthless if the shop goes out of business), but some other items might not appear to require a server at first sight.

[Luna Bliss]

All the new people on this thread wow!  Welcome to the forum!