Lillani Lowell Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 PBR is great, but made worse by everyone using mirrrors for everything. Turn off the mirrors, ban them from your lands. They are the most performant sucking things ever created-- and is why game developers don't use them except in VERY rare instances in a game; let alone dozens of them, or on outfits. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriannaLovey Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Lillani Lowell said: PBR is great, but made worse by everyone using mirrrors for everything. Turn off the mirrors, ban them from your lands. They are the most performant sucking things ever created-- and is why game developers don't use them except in VERY rare instances in a game; let alone dozens of them, or on outfits. Give idiot creators an inch, and they will take a mile. Many people have said that PBR will compensate for high-poly mesh by allowing people to create material maps for use in place of the extra geometry. The competent ones will do this, but the vast majority will not; in fact, they will probably use high geometry, multiple high-res PBR materials, and mirrors all in the same object! Edited July 2 by BriannaLovey 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaylinbridges Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 11 hours ago, Porky Gorky said: f you want SL to look realistic then PBR is what will help to achieve that. PBR materials authored using real world data values, combined with physically accurate lighting will result in the realism you seek. It might just take a while to get there. Well it is not there yet in SL. I know what RL scenery looks like - I've had many years to check it out. And the PBR materials in SL do not look like RL. It is what graphics designers think RL looks like - that is the point. But if they want those plastic artificial flowers from the Walmart flower shops to compare with, they might think PBR is equal to RL, just not real living plants. But those plastic flowers are perfect for basement dweller gamers - never need to feed or water them, let them sit on top of the router rack. and shine an LED light on them. Perfect! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 4 hours ago, Lillani Lowell said: PBR is great, but made worse by everyone using mirrrors for everything. Turn off the mirrors, ban them from your lands. They are the most performant sucking things ever created-- and is why game developers don't use them except in VERY rare instances in a game; let alone dozens of them, or on outfits. I am not a fan of the mirror implementation, but only one mirror renders at a time, even if there are multiple mirrors. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 5 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said: I am not a fan of the mirror implementation, but only one mirror renders at a time, even if there are multiple mirrors. That limitation refers to mirror probes rather than mirrors. You can have multiple mirrors rendering simultaneously but only the mirror probe closest to the camera will affect them (any mirrors not sufficiently aligned with that probe will fail to reflect correctly). (excerpt from LL blog) Quote For example, you can create a big wall of mirrors and have minimal performance impact regardless of how many mirrors are on that wall. As long as they’re aligned with the mirror reflection probe, they can all show a mirror reflection. To conserve performance, mirrors are subject to some limitations. The Viewer will show the effect of only one mirror reflection probe at a time -- the one closest to your camera. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said: Well it is not there yet in SL. I know what RL scenery looks like - I've had many years to check it out. And the PBR materials in SL do not look like RL. It is what graphics designers think RL looks like - that is the point. But if they want those plastic artificial flowers from the Walmart flower shops to compare with, they might think PBR is equal to RL, just not real living plants. But those plastic flowers are perfect for basement dweller gamers - never need to feed or water them, let them sit on top of the router rack. and shine an LED light on them. Perfect! Yep I agree, at best the current PBR system is a stepping stone and not a viable solution for realism. Hopefully LL will realise that and edge towards more realistic lighting and materials over time. My point was that PBR is a good solution for realism, it just needs to be implemented correctly, which has not happened yet. Edited July 2 by Porky Gorky 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahKB7 Koskinen Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 (edited) PBR viewers aren't even necessary to see "mirrors". For several years, I had already seen reflections on all water surfaces using ordinary Firestorm EEP settings. Some examples using a non-PBR viewer: Edited July 2 by SarahKB7 Koskinen 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 8 minutes ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said: PBR viewers aren't even necessary to see "mirrors" But they are necessary in order to allow residents to create their own mirrors which reflect something other than the default environment map and the output from reflection probes are an astronomical improvement over that old generic environment map. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeathcliffMontague Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 I saw the sky reflected on my motorcycle fender on the Mainland. Kinda cool, I guess, in a way, but also very - I dunno - unnecessary? Granted, the bike is by a builder who loves shine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 2 hours ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said: That reminds me, I've been meaning to ask (since LL are in the process of improving tools and options available to creators)... When are they going to allow residents to apply water shaders to mesh/prims so they can make more realistic water features? Also, adding a few extra shaders for effects like fire and smoke would be handy. (While they're at it they could even add some cell-shader effects and maybe some matching PBR-compatible EEPs to appease the anime fans/community?) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 6 hours ago, Lillani Lowell said: PBR is great, but made worse by everyone using mirrrors for everything. Turn off the mirrors, ban them from your lands. They are the most performant sucking things ever created-- and is why game developers don't use them except in VERY rare instances in a game; let alone dozens of them, or on outfits. I don't know about banning them from your lands entirely (unless you're on extremely low-end hardware in which case you should probably avoid them at all costs), but you're certainly right about them being extremely resource intensive and best used very sparingly. One important thing to note is the difference in the achievable quality of the image reflected compared to a lot of mirrors in conventional games. A large number of residents in SL enjoy creating very attractive and detailed avatars and environments, so of course when selecting the resolution and frequency for generating reflection maps a lot of folks are most likely going to go for "as detailed and as fast" as possible, otherwise the low resolution and "laggy" response of mirrors will look out of place in any highly detailed environment. Maxing out those two settings can impact overall performance pretty heavily and when you compare the results to the majority of mirrors found in conventional games it's clear that most (by default at least) don't use anywhere near the resolution SL is currently capable of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florence Firehart Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 On 6/22/2024 at 4:22 AM, RicDelMoro said: My experience with EEP : I made some very simple skies and I use them everywhere I go. With PBR I try to deactivate the maximum of features as possible. I hated all these arrogant changes that force us to buy stronger computers. With the PBR it is worse, it puts more strain on the machine and socialization is becoming unfeasible. Users who like simple things like driving and doing some roleplaying in door don't care at all about these "improvements" that LL introduced. If you're the type of guy who goes out to buy a new computer every time Lindelab's mood changes, congratulations, but not me, I'm a normal person who plays just for fun and I have thousands of other leisure options on the Web. As a result of these beautiful news,my gameplay has deteriorated,caused an effect opposite to that desired by LL. It's sad to say, but currently I avoid places with more people and very complex landscapes, I've been playing in a kind of "survival mode". I know if I step outside my box my PC will overheat or crash. And the time I spend online in SL has decreased. I keep logging into SL out of sheer stubbornness, even though my rational side is saying: "go do something else"...This is just my opinion, if you are happy with all these changes tell us here. 100% agree, I don't need technological cures for problems that don't exist. Just keep it simple and fun. Sure some things are nice to look at but, more complex stuff is exactly as you say. A new computer, and Im not investing more in SL if its not the SL I want. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 5 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: That reminds me, I've been meaning to ask (since LL are in the process of improving tools and options available to creators)... When are they going to allow residents to apply water shaders to mesh/prims so they can make more realistic water features? Also, adding a few extra shaders for effects like fire and smoke would be handy. (While they're at it they could even add some cell-shader effects and maybe some matching PBR-compatible EEPs to appease the anime fans/community?) You're just out of control now. Someone, bring the sedatives. Fluffy's gone rogue again. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristiano Midnight Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 8 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: That limitation refers to mirror probes rather than mirrors. You can have multiple mirrors rendering simultaneously but only the mirror probe closest to the camera will affect them (any mirrors not sufficiently aligned with that probe will fail to reflect correctly). (excerpt from LL blog) Right but how do you do a mirror without a reflection probe set to mirror? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: You're just out of control now. Someone, bring the sedatives. Fluffy's gone rogue again. Oh believe me if I let my imagination run away with me I'd be spouting ideas for features that would make even the most technophilic among us wince, but I do try to show at least a little restraint most of the time! 😅 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 1 hour ago, Cristiano Midnight said: Right but how do you do a mirror without a reflection probe set to mirror? You can't make a mirror without at least one reflection probe set to mirror, but you can make multiple mirrors and have them all working from the same mirror probe. You can even have multiple mirror probes rezzed, but only one of them will be generating the reflections for all the mirrors. So, unless they're all facing roughly the same direction, some of them may fail to work properly and which mirrors fail and which don't will depend on exactly where your camera is and how accurately the probe nearest to it is aligned with each mirror. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 7 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: I don't know about banning them from your lands entirely Yeaaah. Ban them. The performance hit is brutal. Even with a 4080 super there is no chance. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 15 hours ago, Lillani Lowell said: Turn off the mirrors, ban them from your lands. That sounds like something a Vampire would say! Speaking of, now that we HAVE mirrors in Second Life, I haven't seen any vampires weigh in yet on that. "Follow me for more insightful content!" 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 43 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: Yeaaah. Ban them. The performance hit is brutal. Even with a 4080 super there is no chance. I'll admit I haven't seen them running on a 4080, but then I haven't seen anything running on a 4080 (I haven't even seen a 4080 at all, merely heard of them through incredulous rumours whispered in awe-struck tones.. but from what I've heard they sound kinda neat!) My tests of mirrors have all been done on low-end hardware in carefully controlled conditions (i.e. standing on a platform at around 3500m with a draw distance in double digits, nobody around and no overly complicated assets to render) so I can't comment at all on the performance of mirrors "in the wild". They seem kinda cool and work okay but they are most definitely way too fancy for my poor little GPU so they'll remain off unless I really need to test something out (or I decide it's time for my PC to go out in a blaze of glory and a puff of magic smoke!). Honestly I'm not overly invested in mirrors, in fact I almost get the feeling they were thrown in as an attempt at further justifying the performance loss of PBR, kinda like "hey, we know we just screwed all your frame rates and you're probably suffering short term hearing loss due to excessive fan noise, but look... you can make mirrors now! Y'all wanted those right?" . So I wouldn't be completely mortified if they got nerfed or disappeared, although I'd be even be likelier to hop on the "Ban Them All!" bandwagon if flexi-prims were to suffer the same fate since they're almost equally performance crushing! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fauve Aeon Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 Just now, Love Zhaoying said: That sounds like something a Vampire would say! Speaking of, now that we HAVE mirrors in Second Life, I haven't seen any vampires weigh in yet on that. "Follow me for more insightful content!" I wonder if they are grumpy that their avatars DO show up in mirrors? Does it give them identity crisis and break their immersion? I’m sure the novelty will wear off with mirrors soon enough but it’s fun to play with them right now. New shiny is almost always amusing and many of us are metaversal magpies. 3 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: So I wouldn't be completely mortified if they got nerfed or disappeared, although I'd be even be likelier to hop on the "Ban Them All!" bandwagon if flexi-prims were to suffer the same fate since they're almost equally performance crushing! Good thing both can be turned off with a couple of clicks in FS. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 2 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said: Honestly I'm not overly invested in mirrors, in fact I almost get the feeling they were thrown in as an attempt at further justifying the performance loss of PBR, kinda like "hey, we know we just screwed all your frame rates and you're probably suffering short term hearing loss due to excessive fan noise, but look... you can make mirrors now! Y'all wanted those right?" . Uh huh. Exactly. The excited squeals and hand-clapping when it was first suggested that PBR might produce mirror-like reflections convinced them, I'm sure, that this might be one way to mollify the otherwise horrified masses. (I'm being cynical, of course: it might also be that LL simply decided to give us something that a lot of people wanted. But like you, I think they are more of a novelty and a toy than a game-changer, and I look forward to the not-too-distant future when people get bored of them and move on to the next shiny.) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 2 minutes ago, Fauve Aeon said: 8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: That sounds like something a Vampire would say! Speaking of, now that we HAVE mirrors in Second Life, I haven't seen any vampires weigh in yet on that. "Follow me for more insightful content!" Expand I wonder if they are grumpy that their avatars DO show up in mirrors? Does it give them identity crisis and break their immersion? Idea for a feature request: turn off the ability for "my avatar" to reflect in any mirrors, without affecting other avatar's ability to reflect. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 2 minutes ago, Fauve Aeon said: Good thing both can be turned off with a couple of clicks in FS. True, and to be clear I'd miss flexi-prims if they were removed entirely, one of my most favourite pieces of content was made primarily out of flexi-prims (shortly after they were first released). However if we're speaking in purely practical terms about things that adversely affect performance they're right up there with mirrors. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: and I look forward to the not-too-distant future when people get bored of them and move on to the next shiny Well, if LL manage to come up with something shinier than mirrors then I hope it comes with complimentary health insurance that covers burnt retina! 😄 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 Just now, Fluffy Sharkfin said: Well, if LL manage to come up with something shinier than mirrors then I hope it comes with complimentary health insurance that covers burnt retina! 😄 Excellent point. I think we've all had our fill generally of "shiny" recently. It's like when bling first infected the grid. Except worse, because it's EVERYWHERE. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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