Beq Talks About The Future Of Firestorm And PBR

[HeathcliffMontague]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is a laptop.

 

 

Yes, and I have an 18 kg desktop that I try to keep healthy with fans and such. Most of SL I think is done by laptop, though. Not desktop, not mobile, but laptop. They can usually be upgraded unless it's soldered.  Most folks won't even consider even a RAM upgrade, though, and with even some recent in-built CPU graphics it can be decent for some things. Even basic SL in some instances, for now.

[Coffee Pancake]

9 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

well I video weddings the clients may not like all their gests as jelly dolls! LOL

You need a lot more PC than you have.

[Katherine Heartsong]

11 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Your desktop CPU and 3060 beats up his mobile 3070 and steals it's lunch money.

These things are not the same. Not even a little bit.

Mobile, oops missed that.

[Anna Salyx]

I remember last year at the Relay For Life event I had ~200 avatars on screen and while the experience wasn't 100% pleasant, I also didn't crash.  I'm interested in seeing how the PBR Firestorm handles it.  I'll report back later this month. 

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Anna Salyx said:

I remember last year at the Relay For Life event I had ~200 avatars on screen and while the experience wasn't 100% pleasant, I also didn't crash.  I'm interested in seeing how the PBR Firestorm handles it.  I'll report back later this month. 

You had a dozen avatars on screen tops, and 190 imposters .. imposters are 2d rendered low resolution sprites that aren't updated every frame.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

7 hours ago, Jackson Redstar said:

what hardware is that? I have a i7-10700k, a 3070, 32gig ram and all m2 SSD and with 'everything on' in a crowded event maybe 10-16fps - empty sims or a few people no problem but it is always the large amount of avi's that drop the FPS like a rock! just reading about the new PBR it seems like that rock is gonna get even bigger

I just have a :

CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-8700 CPU @ 3.20GHz (3192 MHz)
Memory: 16309 MB (Used: 3001 MB)
Concurrency: 12
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit (Build 19045.2251)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 8192 MB
 

And I was getting around 35-40 FPS at a club with 38 avatars within 20 meters. Shadows on or off didn't make that much difference. I am using the latest FS beta PBS viewer 64.7.1.7.73900. Might want to look at what else is potentially causing a problem?

[Anna Salyx]

2 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

You had a dozen avatars on screen tops, and 190 imposters .. imposters are 2d rendered low resolution sprites that aren't updated every frame.

 

fair point, but even so, i"m going to be experiencing it again in a couple of weeks* so we'll see how things work out.

 

*probably, if they do the same thing this year that they did last year.

Edited May 31 by Anna Salyx

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This is a laptop.

You have a mid range mobile edition GPU and a CPU that's 4 generations old  limited to PCIE 3.0

A desktop 3070 comes with a heat sink the size of a house brick and consumes 220 W. This power consumption is converted to heat at an almost 1:1 ratio (a PC is almost as efficient as a space heater at heating space). A laptop can't even supply a chip with 220W let alone get rid of that much heat.

A 3070 GPU can consume 220W because at full beans, it needs 220W. if you can't give it that much power, it will never run with full beans.

If it can never run at full beans, why should the manufacturer put a desktop binned chip in a laptop .. they use laptop variants, that run slower, even if it is a "3070", it's really really not a 3070.

All of that .. everything I just wrote, applies to the CPU too.

 

Desktop computers don't have bigger circuit boards and massive power stages just for fun, just the combined CPU & GPU VRMs (power delivery) from a desktop take up more PCB space than an entire laptop motherboard.

 

Why do you think we always say buy a deskop PC not a "gamers" laptop.

 

 

Jackson is not on the laptop, I am.  He asked me for my specs because I'm running better than he is on his desktop with roughly the same configuration.

Edited May 31 by Rowan Amore

[Jaylinbridges]

Maybe Rowan's 40+ events have more skimply dressed avatars?  

Where you have Max # of non-imposting avatars set to can make a difference too.  When we had 85 avatars in the club for a popular event, I had to turn that # from my usual 40, to 10 to keep a decent frame rate.  You can't have imposters when you are doing a wedding video, although better than jellydolls.  This was with an earlier version of the FS Beta PBR viewer, with shadows off.  We never crashed during the 1 hour event.

 

 

Edited May 31 by Jaylinbridges

[Nagachief Darkstone]

In terms of hardware requirements for PBR: My personal recommendation is 3 GB of VRAM and 16-24 GB of RAM. Below that you're gonna run into issues such as textures failing to load (as is already the case now before PBR). In terms of GPUs, that suggests probably something like a GTX 1060, which should be enough for an ok experience if you have shadows off. 10-series and equivalents should be fairly cheap on eBay.

On Alchemy, I did a quick test to see if Intel's UHD 770 (The iGPU on my 14700K and appears to be what 12th Gen also uses) can handle PBR. I did my testing in Gale Crater Cantina @ 2560x1080. It ran and looked correct, though I had to use a bit of upscaling to bring the FPS up to around 20-30 FPS. If you didn't want to upscale, you can get barely acceptable performance. Granted, Gale Crater is already well optimized and built around PBR so it might be worse in other areas.

[Rowan Amore]

30 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Maybe Rowan's 40+ events have more skimply dressed avatars?  

Where you have Max # of non-imposting avatars set to can make a difference too.  When we had 85 avatars in the club for a popular event, I had to turn that # from my usual 40, to 10 to keep a decent frame rate.  You can't have imposters when you are doing a wedding video, although better than jellydolls.  This was with an earlier version of the FS Beta PBR viewer, with shadows off.  We never crashed during the 1 hour event.

 

 

I was at Fogbound so mostly normally dressed avatars.  

[Arielle Popstar]

One peeve about the beta FS's is that the Complexity keeps reverting to 350,000 even though I always reset it to No Limit. I hate jellydolls and find they make little difference anyway whether they are jelly or fully rendered.

[Arielle Popstar]

11 hours ago, Beq Janus said:

There have been some recent OpenSim specific fixes, mostly contributed/collaborative with myself and non-FS devs. I am currently working on a replacement for the mindnumbingly awful gridlist. The problem of grid discovery is really not a viewer problem to solve it is something the OpenSim community needs to deal with but in the meantime I am trying out a new "self managed" gridlist. Not sure if it will be ready in time for the release. We shall see. 

 

My own opinion would be to dispense with the gridlist and just have a couple like Osgrid and Kitely and leave it to the residents to input their grids of choice though perhaps that's what you mean with "self managed". I'd be more then happy if that Grid list only had a couple of the bigger grids and let the rest of us put in our own manually. 

Would be nice though if FS would allow one to input a grid even if it is not online like some of the other TPV's do. Would also be nice if we had a working teleport history for hypergrid locations

[Anna Salyx]

4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

One peeve about the beta FS's is that the Complexity keeps reverting to 350,000 even though I always reset it to No Limit. I hate jellydolls and find they make little difference anyway whether they are jelly or fully rendered.

I keep the limit at 350k not because I have issue with high complexity avatars, but it also kicks in protections for other things.  Mainly weird griefer mesh things.  if someone has a very low complexity (<50k even), but exceedingly high texture surface area (over 1000 sqm by default) they will also render as jellies. There might be very reasonable, and innocent, reasons for a sky high surface texture area, but there my be malicious reasons as well. This gives a buffer warning to be aware.  To date since the introduction of the jellydoll system,  I've see the high surface area jelly kick in a total of 4 times.  So its not a common thing and should raise a caution flag when if you see it.

[Extrude Ragu]

They should display senra's instead of jelly dolls, that'd get people to bring their av complexity down

[Beq Janus]

16 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

My own opinion would be to dispense with the gridlist and just have a couple like Osgrid and Kitely and leave it to the residents to input their grids of choice though perhaps that's what you mean with "self managed". I'd be more then happy if that Grid list only had a couple of the bigger grids and let the rest of us put in our own manually. 

Would be nice though if FS would allow one to input a grid even if it is not online like some of the other TPV's do. Would also be nice if we had a working teleport history for hypergrid locations

This is what I mean. The grids.xml that we distribute and host will be pruned back to nothing (just the SL grids and localhost), even picking "bigger grids" suggests some favouritism and does not stand up over time.

So, on a clean install, you'll get a nearly blank list. It will respect your locally configured grids as previously. However, you will now have the new " + click to add more grids," which pops up the grid selector. The selector list is derived from Hypergrid Business' list with Maria's permission. Over time, if OpenSim gets its act together and provides a de facto live list, then it can be easily switched. 

This image shows the list partially filtered (there are about 300 grids listed). this video clip shows it in action https://gyazo.com/15ef28838964f3210172082e9eb8f829 . (This is running locally on my machine, as it is still in dev)

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

12 hours ago, Anna Salyx said:

I keep the limit at 350k not because I have issue with high complexity avatars, but it also kicks in protections for other things.  Mainly weird griefer mesh things.  if someone has a very low complexity (<50k even), but exceedingly high texture surface area (over 1000 sqm by default) they will also render as jellies. There might be very reasonable, and innocent, reasons for a sky high surface texture area, but there my be malicious reasons as well. This gives a buffer warning to be aware.  To date since the introduction of the jellydoll system,  I've see the high surface area jelly kick in a total of 4 times.  So its not a common thing and should raise a caution flag when if you see it.

I set my complexity limit at 20 K, I'd go lower, but it won't let me 😂

I liked it better when jellies were all different colors, now they are all grey

Edited June 1 by BilliJo Aldrin
added a line

[Arielle Popstar]

12 hours ago, Anna Salyx said:

I keep the limit at 350k not because I have issue with high complexity avatars, but it also kicks in protections for other things.  Mainly weird griefer mesh things.  if someone has a very low complexity (<50k even), but exceedingly high texture surface area (over 1000 sqm by default) they will also render as jellies. There might be very reasonable, and innocent, reasons for a sky high surface texture area, but there my be malicious reasons as well. This gives a buffer warning to be aware.  To date since the introduction of the jellydoll system,  I've see the high surface area jelly kick in a total of 4 times.  So its not a common thing and should raise a caution flag when if you see it.

Some of the Grids I visit,  the resident complexity numbers are high with just a mesh hair being 300K. I've only experienced one crash due to a griefer item in 15 years on any grid so "knock on wood", I don't worry about that so much. 

I'd be curious what sort of complexity would actually cause one to crash. I've been in places with a total complexity of over several million without seeing a problem.

[Arielle Popstar]

12 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I set my complexity limit at 20 K, I'd go lower, but it won't let me 😂

I liked it better when jellies were all different colors, now they are all grey

You know you can use the shortcut CTRL+Shift+ALT+4 and you won't have to see anyone right? Really boosts your FPS too!

[Harper Held]

2 hours ago, Beq Janus said:

This is what I mean. The grids.xml that we distribute and host will be pruned back to nothing (just the SL grids and localhost), even picking "bigger grids" suggests some favouritism and does not stand up over time.

So, on a clean install, you'll get a nearly blank list. It will respect your locally configured grids as previously. However, you will now have the new " + click to add more grids," which pops up the grid selector. The selector list is derived from Hypergrid Business' list with Maria's permission. Over time, if OpenSim gets its act together and provides a de facto live list, then it can be easily switched. 

This image shows the list partially filtered (there are about 300 grids listed). this video clip shows it in action https://gyazo.com/15ef28838964f3210172082e9eb8f829 . (This is running locally on my machine, as it is still in dev)

 

The HGB list? I wonder if it's too late to dig Admeja grid (my grid) out of mothballs? I only shut it down a year ago 🤣️🤣️

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

You know you can use the shortcut CTRL+Shift+ALT+4 and you won't have to see anyone right? Really boosts your FPS too!

yes but i dont want to feel like in there all alone. Besides , i like rendering people one at a time, to see what they look like. sometimes the jelly looks better 😬

[Anna Salyx]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Some of the Grids I visit,  the resident complexity numbers are high with just a mesh hair being 300K. I've only experienced one crash due to a griefer item in 15 years on any grid so "knock on wood", I don't worry about that so much. 

I'd be curious what sort of complexity would actually cause one to crash. I've been in places with a total complexity of over several million without seeing a problem.

in the case of texture area, it's really less about complexity and more about other things.  Usually when someone has triggered a high texture area jelly for me, their complexity  was only around 30 to 50k, but they've had a texture area over 1000m^2 ( think one was near 2km^2). For reference, at my most complex I don't think I've ever gone over 300m squared of surface area, and that would be considered high.  In most of the cases, the person was wearing a dance group choreography helper thing that added texture surface area, and one was wearing an environment cube that completely blocked from seeing the surrounding world.  a D/s thing. 

The griefer things are doing things that I don't understand with vertices and stuff, to overwhelm the rendering outside of complexity issues. I did encounter one once but not as a wearable.  Just an object rezzed on the land called "lots of vertices" with a description of "crash" that was causing some people with lower end system big problems.  I can show a picture if anyone is interested. As said, that wasn't a wearable but the principle applies, so I leave a trigger in place to block the chances for those types of things. 

[Anna Salyx]

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I'd be curious what sort of complexity would actually cause one to crash. I've been in places with a total complexity of over several million without seeing a problem.

I once saw an avatar with a ~2million complexity.  Very pretty.  Very detail. Lots of fire.  didn't really seem to be causing anyone any problems.

[Modulated]

15 hours ago, Anna Salyx said:

I once saw an avatar with a ~2million complexity.  Very pretty.  Very detail. Lots of fire.  didn't really seem to be causing anyone any problems.

Thank LL for complexity sliders, anyone walking around with that amount of foolishy high complexity deserves to not be rendered. I can bet it was causing someone problems, that is just far too high. I keep my complexity capped at 100k, and my own is usually 50 or below. It can be done.

[Fauve Aeon]

I have some older no mod items that bump mine easily into the 400,000 - 800,000 range, some prim fur items, some older flexi hair, some jewelery, some flexi parts on dresses. I should just wear them for a photo and pack them up, a few were gifts made by long gone friends but I’m glad people can just easily  derender me automatically if my complexity exceeds their desire to render me. One particular pair of earrings adds 100,000. Each. To be fair, they are fully detailed miniature models of 1800’s frigates made from microprims. 🏴‍☠️