Community Roundtable May 20, 2024

[Chery Amore]

To me it comes across as we cannot live in a vacuum.  Second life needs new membership or it's going to continue to limp along and eventually die.  We can sell it or we can make it work. They have to work with outside companies that don't want to be associated with scandal or really bad press. Bad press is fast now especially over things that they are changing the TOS for. They and we have to clean up our act to move forward.

They seem to want to progress to get this rating thing in order... have more structured rules about maturity ratings and a  place for everyone.  It does sound like a slow clean up and reorganization is coming in regards to maturity rating stuff.

Personally I'm good with moving with the times. I'd rather people that know about how second life really is be in charge of the clean up. Am I completely sold on we have your best interests at heart? I never am in any situation where I'm paying for a service.. but yeah I feel pretty good about it. He sold it well.

[Arielle Popstar]

Problem as I see it is that SL can't retain new users because of its steep learning curve. Instead of dealing with that, thinks the way forward is tightening its lax Maturity ratings. That has up to now been one of its main selling features. With the new policies, they are losing that edge with no change to its learning curve.

Users from The Sims, IMVU and other virtual worlds with draconian maturity policies will have less motivation now to go through the pain of learning how to get around SL instead of staying where they are.

Sure the talk is that they are keeping other adult content but how long can they keep that up? If today's new policies are being brought in at the insistence of a third party like Apple, how long will it be before they start coming after other adult rated content?

I used to think IMVU was so puranical because of its Mormon owners but now suspect it is in a large measure because their own dealings with Apple and other business interests, forced them to clean up its act to a point where even 13 year olds are ok to join. Is that where SL is going to be forced to go for its new financial overlords? I suspect so.

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 hours ago, Starberry Passion said:

But paypal has been enforcing it, lately.

They can be partners all they want but this year is the year where they've become savage.

Wow, you sure have changed your tune on all this. All it took was the CEO to say what and why they are doing this instead of us?  Glad you are on board now.

[Starberry Passion]

42 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Wow, you sure have changed your tune on all this. All it took was the CEO to say what and why they are doing this instead of us?  Glad you are on board now.

You're assuming everything. I listened to what was said and relayed to what he has to say. I've said before that I'd rather Second life grow and stay alive. 

My tune has never changed.

[Starberry Passion]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Problem as I see it is that SL can't retain new users because of its steep learning curve. Instead of dealing with that, thinks the way forward is tightening its lax Maturity ratings. That has up to now been one of its main selling features. With the new policies, they are losing that edge with no change to its learning curve.

Users from The Sims, IMVU and other virtual worlds with draconian maturity policies will have less motivation now to go through the pain of learning how to get around SL instead of staying where they are.

Sure the talk is that they are keeping other adult content but how long can they keep that up? If today's new policies are being brought in at the insistence of a third party like Apple, how long will it be before they start coming after other adult rated content?

I used to think IMVU was so puranical because of its Mormon owners but now suspect it is in a large measure because their own dealings with Apple and other business interests, forced them to clean up its act to a point where even 13 year olds are ok to join. Is that where SL is going to be forced to go for its new financial overlords? I suspect so.

 

From what I've seen, it was not the learning curve alone, it was the behaviours of the community, the fees and expensives, people telling you what to do and how to look and people bullying new players. Also, as I have relayed, he stated that the BBG community and DDLG community and stuff like that is not seen as A.P as long as both are consenting adult and portray themselves as adult, the Mommy/Daddy Dom/Domme is not grounds, alone, to A.R. you.

Anime avatars are not going to be subjected to the A.P minority rules, unless that person is presenting as a child avatar.

He said Second life has always been for adults and he doesn't want to ride any community of its flavor, so you're safe to do what you've been doing really.

Edited May 21 by Starberry Passion

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 hours ago, Chery Amore said:

To me it comes across as we cannot live in a vacuum.  Second life needs new membership or it's going to continue to limp along and eventually die.  We can sell it or we can make it work. They have to work with outside companies that don't want to be associated with scandal or really bad press. Bad press is fast now especially over things that they are changing the TOS for. They and we have to clean up our act to move forward.

They seem to want to progress to get this rating thing in order... have more structured rules about maturity ratings and a  place for everyone.  It does sound like a slow clean up and reorganization is coming in regards to maturity rating stuff.

Personally I'm good with moving with the times. I'd rather people that know about how second life really is be in charge of the clean up. Am I completely sold on we have your best interests at heart? I never am in any situation where I'm paying for a service.. but yeah I feel pretty good about it. He sold it well.

That noob you saw standing in the back corner was a potential buyer, wanting to see how LL will clean everything up before making a firm offer 😬

[Rowan Amore]

Isn't PayPal used to buy Lindens or pay SL expenses and when cashing out?  I know you CAN make MP purchases using PayPal but is that something people actually do?

PayPal wouldn't have access to what we spend out Lindens on or whether it's an adult product or not.

[Starberry Passion]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Isn't PayPal used to buy Lindens or pay SL expenses and when cashing out?  I know you CAN make MP purchases using PayPal but is that something people actually do?

PayPal wouldn't have access to what we spend out Lindens on or whether it's an adult product or not.

It doesn't matter, Pixiv sells art through Pixiv Booth and paypal just handles the money. However, in April of this year, they told Pixiv to story selling any type of sexual art, regardless of what they looked like, in the West or they would pull their business out.

So Pixiv had no choice but to comply, because that's a loss of money as a whole.

Forgot to say (Either stop it all together or they told them to censor everything sexual. I forgot about that as well.)

Edited May 21 by Starberry Passion

[BilliJo Aldrin]

9 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Isn't PayPal used to buy Lindens or pay SL expenses and when cashing out?  I know you CAN make MP purchases using PayPal but is that something people actually do?

PayPal wouldn't have access to what we spend out Lindens on or whether it's an adult product or not.

Second Life is the adult product

Edited May 21 by BilliJo Aldrin
changed LL to Second Life

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

It doesn't matter, Pixiv sells art through Pixiv Booth and paypal just handles the money. However, in April of this year, they told Pixiv to story selling any type of sexual art, regardless of what they looked like, in the West or they would pull their business out.

Yeah...  NO.

A Japanese website selling Hentai Anime, with those badly drawn 10 y old faces on 15 yr old bodies.

You're comparing oranges with orangutangs.

 

SL doesn't violate the PayPal terms, it's not a porn download site, nor is it a subscription based online porn gallery, nor is it an RL sexy singles hookup site, nor is it an online store for mail-order sex toys and xxx rated dvds/bluerays, nor does it allow porn involving minors.

 

SL doesn't break Paypal's rules, Pixiv does.

 

 

 

[brodiac90]

7 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Why should they ban them though? I mean I think people should be able to express themselves however they please. As long as they follow the rules. What is with this absolute hate for them?

Yeah if you're all for freedom of expression, your SL, your life, then you kind of need us child avatars to stay around as a sort of salt test. You either have freedom of expression or you don't. Obviously there has to be rules about the sort of things you can and can't do, but that's very different to limiting what you can and can't be. 

You don't have to like us or even engage with us (there's an entire child free continent) but wishing us gone is foolish. 

[Starberry Passion]

1 minute ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Yeah...  NO.

A Japanese website selling Hentai Anime, with those badly drawn 10 y old faces on 15 yr old bodies.

You're comparing oranges with orangutangs.

 

SL doesn't violate the PayPal terms, it's not a porn download site, nor is it a subscription based online porn gallery, nor is it an RL sexy singles hookup site, nor is it an online store for mail-order sex toys and xxx rated dvds/bluerays, nor does it allow porn involving minors.

 

SL doesn't break Paypal's rules, Pixiv does.

 

 

 

No, the reason why Paypal did what it did is because Pixiv banned members for uploading photo realistic art of underage stuff of fictional children indistinguishable  from actual children and then paypal told pixiv to censor everything, or stop it all together because of community outcry and laws that was broken by people who cannot read or follow the rules, that messed it up for everyone else as a whole.

You don't know what you're talking about.  https://www.unifans.io/blog/pixiv-deleting-r18-and-banning-creators

[Starberry Passion]

So because this happened, Mastercard and Paypal cracked down hard on sexual material, what is second life known for to several people? A sexual platform and what happened recently?

An outcry about child avatar in sexualized A.P.

Of course Paypal will say something about that, after it was public and it is removed even more because Apple, since Linden lab wants a phone app

which I am not against because I want second life to spread and become livelier.

But all it took was just a few people to cause a public outcry to make changes, in which happened to Second Life because a few bad apples and a mysterious blog that may or may not have been true, but it was seen.

That was enough.

[Kathlen Onyx]

11 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

So because this happened, Mastercard and Paypal cracked down hard on sexual material, what is second life known for to several people? A sexual platform and what happened recently?

An outcry about child avatar in sexualized A.P.

Of course Paypal will say something about that, after it was public and it is removed even more because Apple, since Linden lab wants a phone app

which I am not against because I want second life to spread and become livelier.

But all it took was just a few people to cause a public outcry to make changes, in which happened to Second Life because a few bad apples and a mysterious blog that may or may not have been true, but it was seen.

That was enough.

First there a more than a "few" bad apples. 

Second, what is Paypal going to do when people put naked art on their walls on M Rated land and don't lock it down?  That seems more invasive to me.

Also, it's a mobile app not a just a phone app. A LOT of children have access to tablets more than phones.

[Rowan Amore]

You're still buying a specific Adult product with PayPal or a credit card on Pixiv.  In SL, your purchase is of Lindens.  Lindens aren't an adult.product.  PayPal has no idea what you're spending your Lindens on.  Since PayPal does allow purchases of physical adult products, they are not completely against ALL adult products.  

What LL could do is stop the option of paying for MP adult purchases with PayPal.  

[Innula Zenovka]

As I recall it (I'm sorry, but I can't be bothered to listen to the whole thing again), PayPal and the Apple App store were mentioned in different contexts.  

The requirements of the App Store and Google Play apply to the mobile SL viewer that's under development, and constrain what you're allowed to access using the mobile viewer (and that's why, at least at the moment, the mobile viewer can't be used to access Adult regions).

Oberwolf used PayPal as an example, about 23 minutes in, of one of the external factors the Lab has to consider when drawing up various policies, in this case the new ToS about Child Avatars.  If you're PayPal, he says, and you read in the press a story about child avatars and adult activities, you're not going to think, "this is two adults role-playing".   You're going to think "This is the sort of thing we don't want to be involved in" and drop support for SL.

That is, when working on the Mobile viewer, LL has to make sure it complies with the specific policies of Apple and Google.   When working on the ToS and Community Standards in general, LL has to keep in mind the need to avoid the sort of reputational damage to SL that certain activities might cause, and the impact that would have on the Lab's relationship with people like PayPal.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, brodiac90 said:

Yeah if you're all for freedom of expression, your SL, your life, then you kind of need us child avatars to stay around as a sort of salt test. You either have freedom of expression or you don't. Obviously there has to be rules about the sort of things you can and can't do, but that's very different to limiting what you can and can't be. 

You don't have to like us or even engage with us (there's an entire child free continent) but wishing us gone is foolish. 

First they will ban the kids, then they ban “perverted” adult activities, then they will ban ALL adult activities.

And then SL will die 😂

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

First they will ban the kids, then they ban “perverted” adult activities, then they will ban ALL adult activities.

And then SL will die 😂

I seem to remember you making that argument in a few other threads. Unless you're just making a joke.

"Ha-ha"?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, brodiac90 said:

Yeah if you're all for freedom of expression, your SL, your life, then you kind of need us child avatars to stay around as a sort of salt test.

Irony, that "salty" has a certain meaning in popular slang these days!

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

Yeah if you're all for freedom of expression, your SL, your life, then you kind of need us child avatars to stay around as a sort of salt test.

No, we really don't.

Your mere existence in SL poses a threat to the whole platform. Your tiny toxic terror tot gang, threatens the freedom of expression for the 99% of us who are not part of your gang. As long as people are allowed to pretend to be kids, on an ADULT platform, outsiders will assume that ***-play is happening.

 

2 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

You don't have to like us or even engage with us (there's an entire child free continent)

It wasn't fake-child free a couple of weeks ago, and since most people STILL don't know the ToS changed and that your lot are now walking ToS violations, it's STILL not faker-child free.

I was on an Adult rated Zindra region on Sunday, I mentioned the ToS changes in a crowd of about 20 people, and TWO knew about it.

TWO.

 

Fear-mongers like Arielle claim there will be mass abuse reports of 50% of the female avatars in SL, she's dreaming.

Based on the number of Zindrans I've seen who seen noticed that the ToS had changed, let alone what the changes actually WERE. the fake-children will still infest and threaten Zinda.

 

2 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

but wishing us gone is foolish. 

Gangrene. You treat it by amputating the affected area, before the rot spreads far enough to kill the patient.

 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Starberry Passion said:

From what I've seen, it was not the learning curve alone, it was the behaviours of the community, the fees and expensives, people telling you what to do and how to look and people bullying new players. Also, as I have relayed, he stated that the BBG community and DDLG community and stuff like that is not seen as A.P as long as both are consenting adult and portray themselves as adult, the Mommy/Daddy Dom/Domme is not grounds, alone, to A.R. you.

Anime avatars are not going to be subjected to the A.P minority rules, unless that person is presenting as a child avatar.

He said Second life has always been for adults and he doesn't want to ride any community of its flavor, so you're safe to do what you've been doing really.

The learning curve is why new users don't log in twice, long before any of the other problems come into play. SL hasn't grown in concurrency since before 2009, way before the fees came into it and the expenses have dropped over time. The learning curve meanwhile just gets steeper and steeper.

 

Quote

He said Second life has always been for adults and he doesn't want to ride any community of its flavor, so you're safe to do what you've been doing really.

Well he is the owner of the platform he has invested millions into it, so I expect him to say whatever will keep residents paying their tier and buying the content while at the same time try to better the reputation of the platform for other investors and business partners.

I been a heavy promoter of a mobile viewer since 2018, but with the hoops Apple is requiring, I feel they should just drop it or just make it a sideload that doesn't require their store. It is costing SL too much which I don't think the platform will see the benefit of.

[Katherine Heartsong]

16 hours ago, Madi Melodious said:

I waked to through a few adult regions over the weekend in my new adult shape and nobody said 'boo' to me.

[snipped]

Great. That sure triggered my arachnophobia something bad this morning.  Up to 15% of the population has arachnophobia. A warning next time I beg you.

Edited May 21 by Katherine Heartsong

[Sadvhi]

1 minute ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Great. That sure triggered my arachnophobia something bad this morning.

I have a cockroach avatar but never wear it because I know a lot of people (including myself, ironically) have a phobia of roaches lol

[brodiac90]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The learning curve is why new users don't log in twice, long before any of the other problems come into play. SL hasn't grown in concurrency since before 2009, way before the fees came into it and the expenses have dropped over time. The learning curve meanwhile just gets steeper and steeper.

The learning curve really is one of the biggest issues. Even operating something as simple as the camera is not at all intuitive or like other platforms. 

Then people compare their dorky noob avatars with the latest mesh goodies from Lelutka and Maitreya etc and feel disheartened. 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I don't personally think all this is going to work (cleanup on aisle Mobile). Have they seen M land lately? 👀

I couldn't even shop for an animesh pet this past weekend without getting spammed by adult gestures.

Hopefully there are no plans for voice chat on mobile, either. I keep mine off (and all sounds), but I've been watching some of those new to Second Life videos out of curiosity (mostly to see how new people take to the Senras) and...oof. M sims are lit.