So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Zalificent Corvinus]

4 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I had left this thread open in a browser last night.  I logged in to see this:

10 new pages.   *sigh*

You think this is bad ?

The forum at Star Trek Online, after the devs did something unpopular and basically stupid, produced a thread with over 1100 replies in about 16 hours.

I felt sorry for the community manager who logged in the next morning and found the boss's announcement had 1100 replies, ALL of them angry, and had to go tell him the bad news.

About half an hour later, there was a post announcing a partial climbdown.

 

[Madi Melodious]

5 hours ago, brodiac90 said:

I also got that panic button Hud that Madi posted about it does the above but will also TP you home to safe land if the G or M sim you're currently on suddenly changes to A land while you're on it. 

The other thing that hud does it take you to a safe zone if you accidentally wander on to adult land while out exploring.  I'm not sure but I don't think the rating in the Viewer will stop you from walking on to adult land, just from teleporting on to it.   Mind you I'm not completely sure about that but the hud will take you to safety if that was to happen. 

[Starberry Passion]

People still talking about anime and furry avatar.

I don't think second life will discriminate against these two, in the slightest. I think you should stop worrying,

I believe you will still be allowed on adult sims, as long as you are an adult and not try to act like a child.

Linden Lab would not intentionally discriminate or witch hunt any group or groups of people, just because they have a different outlook or approach to second life. Some of the Lindens might even watch anime and I know that some of them are apart of the furry community and there is nothing wrong with that.

The main goal is to allow people to express themselves inside of second life,

all they did was separate second life children from second life adults and censor child avatars.

I've seen people continue to talk about height, second life would not, in my opinion, discriminate against height, no matter the height of an Adult body, they already said that it has nothing to do with height. If someone calls you a pedophile without proof or because of their own biased opinion, that is false accusations thrown your way. 

So don't worry too much,

Most of the younger Generation that come on here, a lot of the Millennials and Gen Z are into the E-girl looks or Asian looks or like being cute as an adult and I've seen Linden lab interview several of these women, they didn't treat them like children or try to accuse them of anything.

so don't panic so much. I think it'll be fine and I think these new rules are fine.

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I do see some discussion that hints "protecting Child avatars from Adult Content" is necessary because Child avatars may be driven by actual Children.   I think that is a topic not really covered by the TOS changes; the general assumption is that Child avatars are driven by Adults.

Actual children as in those ALLOWED to join SL which I believe are 16 and 17 years old, are already restricted to General regions.  There's no need to address it in the ToS changes as nothing has changed about that.

[Dorientje Woller]

Now the elephant in the room ... which has been addressed in that article that caused these ToS changes: What if a store, in world, for child gear is situated in an "A"-rated sim?

[Qie Niangao]

16 minutes ago, Vanity Fair said:

We are never going to get details of the "personnel changes." These are internal Linden Lab HR matters, and at most all we can do is watch the Linden Lab executive chart to see if there are any changes  made at the top level. That's it.

Absolutely, and that's only reasonable given standard HR privacy practice. My point was, by now, that top management chart would have changed in one specific way if the investigations hadn't found at least the juiciest parts of the accusations to be simply false. 

[Qie Niangao]

37 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

[stuff I said about nude beaches]

This is covered in  the FAQ:

More generally, this might go some way to reassuring people who are worried about a permaban because of an innocent mistake or trivial infraction:

Thanks. I'm actually not all that worried, though, about the prospect of overzealous acts by Governance, but rather the diluting effect of trivial reports slowing down response to real offenses needing to be dealt with efficiently. 

From an earlier post: "If I see a child avatar on a nude beach in a M rated region, I am going to make an AR." I guess that's a violation now, but if I were DA of Governance I'd slot that prosecution to start right after all the dangerous sidewalk-spitters were safely behind bars.

(And personally, if it weren't for this current PR nightmare, I'd table anything a child avatar can get up to until every extortion-priced microparcel ad prim were flushed from the grid. But with this crap now, I can't expect any progress at all against that blight.)

They might save some pain by refining communication of AR policy, to discourage useless distractions.

[Roxy Couturier]

2 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Now the elephant in the room ... which has been addressed in that article that caused these ToS changes: What if a store, in world, for child gear is situated in an "A"-rated sim?

Then to follow their clientele, they would need to relocate to either a G or M sim. I'm not even sure why that's a question.

[Aya Sweetheart]

5 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Most of the younger Generation that come on here, a lot of the Millennials and Gen Z are into the E-girl looks or Asian looks or like being cute as an adult and I've seen Linden lab interview several of these women, they didn't treat them like children or try to accuse them of anything.

so don't panic so much. I think it'll be fine and I think these new rules are fine.

I have noticed RL older people like to dress very differently from RL younger people, even in SL... I like more cute, kawaii, type stuff that a lot of the older people (most of SL) thinks is only for children. This comes across in SL fashion a lot, where I roll my eyes at 99.9% of outfits made.

The rules aren't really the issue, they seem good.  Its about the people reporting and harassing... even replies in this thread wandering into bigotry... I just hope LL has some wiser people making decisions than some of the community here.

I also noticed that this thread reminds me a lot of Twitter/X... which is not a good thing.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Yes? I don't have adult rated land... I mean, where do I find it? do I get a complimentary parcel? Also they'd have to make Beli 'adult'...

 

no you gotta pay big bucks for adult mainland, and dont expect LL to ever make Beli adult, it would look to much like LL was condoning and promoting SL’s dirty little secret 😁

[Innula Zenovka]

9 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Now the elephant in the room ... which has been addressed in that article that caused these ToS changes: What if a store, in world, for child gear is situated in an "A"-rated sim?

Presumably the owner would be advised to consider moving to a region more readily accessible for their customer base.  Either that or people will need to change to another avatar when they go shopping. 

[Rowan Amore]

57 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Child avatars can always report the others. That's the point.

Not exactly.  If it's moderate land, there is always the expectation of seeing nudity as it's allowed.  The change now makes it the responsibility of the child-presenting avatar to not be around that.  Before, it was often the region owner who was held accountable for allowing it.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Again, though, how do the new rules make that kind of look more vulnerable to being ARed?

It's still going to be a judgment call, and that's how it's always been. As proof of that, you have the fact that she was banned before the new rules, no?

Just to chime in on this (I just caught up...whew...), I see Coffee already explained why looks like this and others are now going to be under new scrutiny, so I'll contribute my own thoughts to the A land ban...

Every single one of my avatars are adults, most landing in the 30+ age demographic, but they're also extremely non-standard and much of the time, not even human, so if some random person tries to guess their age, it may be difficult. I don't hang out in adult-rated sims much at all, but I do shop a LOT. A lot a lot. You know how I do. And I never pay much attention to the land rating the store is in.

Do I have to worry about teleporting into a store on Adult-rated land as a non-binary android or doll/marionette now or nah? These things look completely fine and mature to ME, but if some are struggling with adult vs. teen human/anime in this very thread, good luck judging some of the ball-jointed, plastic, wires coming out my head, LED power suit wearing flat gender non-conforming nonsense I make and roll around in.

How old is Cthulhu in a dress? What about a horror head full of razor teeth but a rather young 20-something face slapped on a V-Tech-wearing body? Asking for a me. 

 

(More seriously, I'm 100% aware I have very, very little to worry about and I've got plenty of avatars to shop in, but I see some of the age guessing and it's got me like ... brah...braaaah.) 😂 

Though, perhaps when you consider non-binary and/or fantasy avatars, there's definitely room for ambiguity there. We're not direct targets of this action in any way, but now I'm going to have to be very mindful about which avatars to take shopping, which is definitely a change (especially for those quick runs to the store to grab something I realized I need during a photo shoot). A very slight inconvenience to be sure, but ehhhh, just more to think about that makes me less excited to log in (I come here to turn off my brain and chillax, dontchaknow).

[Starberry Passion]

1 minute ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

I have noticed RL older people like to dress very differently from RL younger people, even in SL... I like more cute, kawaii, type stuff that a lot of the older people (most of SL) thinks is only for children. This comes across in SL fashion a lot, where I roll my eyes at 99.9% of outfits made.

The rules aren't really the issue, they seem good.  Its about the people reporting and harassing... even replies in this thread wandering into bigotry... I just hope LL has some wiser people making decisions than some of the community here.

I also noticed that this thread reminds me a lot of Twitter/X... which is not a good thing.

That is an issue, but I don't think you have to worry about that either. Look at Second Life's youtube channel and tell me what you see.

It is true that a lot of older generation play second life and it is true they see a lot of things are childish and want everyone to be 40 - 50 years old. They don't want things to change and want things to be how they were when they were our age, but it's no longer like that. You're an adult, your fashion is different, they should understand more instead of try to banish you for being younger.

Some have made this forum something more than child avatars, which is unfair.

I don't think Linden Labs will destroy their player base because if you look on twitter, majority of Women on there look like you and I, scept tall.

[AmeliaJ08]

Just now, Innula Zenovka said:

If you contrast the example you gave -- you sitting on a regular beach on the Blake Sea enjoying the sunset and some naked adult avatars passing by on their boat (I wonder how often this happens) vs you sitting on a "Family friendly" nude beach, then I think the meaning of "the context of a location" is clear. 

The context of the location itself is separate though, my confusion is related to the word 'engaging' - I mean aren't we engaging in a location by enjoying a Blake Sea sunset?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but... Blake Sea is definitely one of the places you will frequently to the point of it being a near certainty encounter nudity and often outright sexual activity despite being on Moderate land.

For me the rules as written seem ambiguous and I don't think I'd feel safe somewhere like that if I was a child avi, I can just see how that could go very wrong and I doubt it'd be the adult avis who get the blame for such a situation.

I feel any venture outside of a G region is fraught with risk for a child avi despite assurances regarding accidental exposure etc, I just don't think that is something people are going to want to leave up to the gods to decide.

Edited May 5 by AmeliaJ08

[Innula Zenovka]

3 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

The context of the location itself is separate though, my confusion is related to the word 'engaging' - I mean aren't we engaging in a location by enjoying a Blake Sea sunset?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but... Blake Sea is definitely one of the places you will frequently to the point of it being a near certainty encounter nudity and often outright sexual activity despite being on Moderate land.

For me the rules as written seem ambiguous and I don't think I'd feel safe somewhere like that if I was a child avi, I can just see how that could go very wrong and I doubt it'd be the adult avis who get the blame for such a situation.

I feel any venture outside of a G region is fraught with risk for a child avi despite assurances regarding accidental exposure etc, I just don't think that is something people are going to want to leave up to the gods to decide.

If people are engaging in sexual activity in public on M land, whether it's the Blake Sea or anywhere else, that's clearly against the ToS and Adult Content policy, so I'd suggest you AR them.    

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

It does present an issue... I mean how does Moderate work any more?

Say you're a child avi and on the Blake Sea, a yacht enters the same region you are in and on the deck are naked people. Is this a TOS violation for one or both parties?

total violation for the kid, you see a naked adult, you better skedaddle😁

[Starberry Passion]

Adults wear outfits like this, people should get over it/

many women in second life look like this and a lot of women look like this irl, this isn't a child

or this

these are all adult women

[Katherine Heartsong]

22 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Now the elephant in the room ... which has been addressed in that article that caused these ToS changes: What if a store, in world, for child gear is situated in an "A"-rated sim?

Move? And profit by selling your A-rated land and buying cheaper M or G rated land!

In most cases A-rated land costs more than M or G rated land so the store owner makes money doing it. So you move to keep your store open and you profit. Win-win!

(And before anyone complains "That's so onerous!" I operate a full gallery/store and separate cafe I could package up using the build tool grabbing everything, right-clicking and say "take copy", and move to a new location and re-rezz it all in under 10 minutes. Five more minutes to set up the EEP, making sure the land description and group was right, and music stream on the parcel and done. So it's 15 minutes of annoying to do, but not difficult.)

My question back would be ... Why'd the owner have set up a kid's store on A-rated land in the first place? Wjat would make them think that made sense knowing that there could be a brothel or beast-sim right next door? That doesn't seem logical to me.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

51 minutes ago, Roxy Couturier said:

They did. They did away with the teen grid and raised the minimum age to access SL to 16. iirc, from 16 until they turn 18, they can only access General rated sims (for the people that correctly report their underage) So any 'driver' behind an avatar on M or A land is representing themselves as an adult. I operate on that assumption. If they happen to be underage in RL, that's not my concern nor is it my burden. They have certified they're an adult.

in the over 15 years that I've been on SL, I've only encountered -one- person I thought was an underage 'driver' in an adult venue.

To be clear, this isn't about 'save the kiddos', there are no kiddos to save.. it's about 'stop the pedos'. Full stop.

The psychology of it is, that the pedo 'practices' the act. Doing this in SL is a very visual way to practice. This virtual practice, leads to finally advancing their fantasy to RL. Virtual pedo-ing is practice to get up the nerve to do the real thing. Anything that stymies that fantasy is actually a good thing.

does it encourage them to go to rl, or does it gjve them a safe (safe for rl kids) outlet for their urges?

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

does it encourage them to go to rl, or does it gjve them a safe (safe for rl kids) outlet for their urges?

WT actual F?

[Starberry Passion]

4 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

does it encourage them to go to rl, or does it gjve them a safe (safe for rl kids) outlet for their urges?

If they are fictosexual, probably not because they are someone who is only attracted to fictional beings.

If they carry it to real life then they become actual pedophiles by the actual definition, literally a pedophile and then they will be arrested and prosecuted by the law and treated as a pedophile.

A pedophile is a person who pray on or is attracted to real life human children. The reason why people are upset when someone is doing it with a child avatar is because the audacity.

But I fear that if one was an actual pedophile and they were playing second life to keep away from real life and they are banned, they might start to try to hurt real life children as well.

Then there is the possibility of the opposite happen where a child can try to prey on adults, which has happened, believe it or not, blackmailing the adult by pretending to be an adult online over Second life to try to ruin someone's life when they are not attracted to minors and now they are in serious trouble.

All of these are high possibilities that could happen.

[Katherine Heartsong]

17 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Adults wear outfits like this, people should get over it/

many women in second life look like this and a lot of women look like this irl, this isn't a child

or this

these are all adult women

Top one is more than fine.

That bottom one is one of any number of popular brand kids face from Heaux or whoever slapped onto the ever-popular kawaii chubby avatar bodies where curves are supposed to imply not kid. I don't buy that as an adult, but I'm in the more real the more I enjoy your look camp, but I'd let it go because this look is everywhere. That face on a really slim, short body at an adult pick up place like Hotwife though? Hmmm.

Also ... context. Context matters. I don't just look at an avatar because all of us can look like anything we want. I'm checking out your groups, your profile, the way you chat in Nearby, whether you're next to Daddy who's 4 feet taller than you and has you on a leash like a dog, does your a$$ slapper giggle and spew out baby talk every five seconds when you're slapped, etc. The holistic package, not just some chub cute kawaii look.

What I mean by that is that the avatar at bottom could be played as a cute adult, or a ultra-curvy younger teen, especially with a face with baby fat curves and proportions in it. Context would help define my overall opinion.

(Caveat ... This, and the ever bruised/scarred, battered hardcore grunge waif looks, are my least favourite looks in all SL, but I don't discriminate (be whatever in SL!) and would never call you out as a under-18 unless the whole package indicates it. Just use your best judgement. LL isn't going after this look. Aside: The ones I surprisingly like who aren't going for human are some of the fantasy/elf/drow maiden looks. My goodness they are stunning sometimes despite a youthful yet eternal appearance.)

Edited May 5 by Katherine Heartsong

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Starberry Passion said:

If they are fictosexual, probably not because they are someone who is only attracted to fictional beings.

If they carry it to real life then they become actual pedophiles by the actual definition, literally a pedophile and then they will be arrested and prosecuted by the law and treated as a pedophile.

A pedophile is a person who pray on or is attracted to real life human children. The reason why people are upset when someone is doing it with a child avatar is because the audacity.

But I fear that if one was an actual pedophile and they were playing second life to keep away from real life and they are banned, they might start to try to hurt real life children as well.

Then there is the possibility of the opposite happen where a child can try to prey on adults, which has happened, believe it or not, blackmailing the adult by pretending to be an adult online over Second life to try to ruin someone's life when they are not attracted to minors and now they are in serious trouble.

All of these are high possibilities that could happen.

I never thought of a child avi blackmailing an adult of some pedo activity. its bad all around.

[Starberry Passion]

5 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Top one is more than fine.

That bottom one is one of any number of popular brand kids face from Heaux or whoever slapped onto the ever-popular kawaii chubby avatar bodies where curves are supposed to imply not kid. I don't buy that as an adult, but I'm in the more real the more I enjoy your look camp, but I'd let it go because this look is everywhere. That face on a really slim, short body at an adult pick up place like Hotwife though? Hmmm.

Also ... context. Context matters. I don't just look at an avatar because all of us can look like anything we want. I'm checking out your groups, your profile, the way you chat in Nearby, whether you're next to Daddy who's 4 feet taller than you and has you on a leash like a dog, does your a$$ slapper giggle and spew out baby talk every five seconds when you're slapped, etc. The holistic package, not just some chub cute kawaii look.

What I mean by that is that the avatar at bottom could be played as a cute adult, or a ultra-curvy younger teen, especially with a face with baby fat curves and proportions in it. Context would help define my overall opinion.

(Caveat ... This, and the ever bruised/scarred, battered hardcore grunge waif looks, are my least favourite looks in all SL, but I don't discriminate (be whatever in SL!) and would never call you out as a under-18 unless the whole package indicates it. Just use your best judgement. LL isn't going after this look. Aside: The ones I surprisingly like who aren't going for human are some of the fantasy/elf/drow maiden looks. My goodness they are stunning sometimes despite a youthful yet eternal appearance.)

If those are children, then this woman is a child 

and this woman is a child