So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Starberry Passion]

5 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

Which BeBe body though? They have a baby/toddler body, and a youth body for age 5 ish to 11 ish.

I'm only aware of the toddler body, I have no idea about the others.

[MissSweetViolet]

1 minute ago, Starberry Passion said:

I'm only aware of the toddler body, I have no idea about the others.

They have a youth one too, if you search their shop Bad Seed on the MP and narrow down to the complete avatar category you'll see them both.

Edited May 3 by MissSweetViolet
Spelling corrections.

[Ineffable Mote]

16 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

AI is still pretty bad at determining age. I wonder too if a racial bias might be part of the problem, or if it's just a gender bias based on how the media expects women to look so young.

I wouldn't expect there to be a lot of virtual photos of cartoony looking virtual kids to be included in the data set, for whatever AI 'training". Even with everything skimmed off of Flickr.

Edited May 3 by Ineffable Mote

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

AI is still pretty bad at determining age. I wonder too if a racial bias might be part of the problem, or if it's just a gender bias based on how the media expects women to look so young. You know there are people who a assume a young black girl is more "mature" than they would assume for a white or Asian girl of the same age.

I'd guess the girl in that picture is no more than 8 years old, based on both her facial features and her neck and shoulder width.

I agree.  She looked much younger than 15 to me, too.  Racial bias does.play a role.  Interestingly, as we get older, we tend to not look as old as we are!  

[Love Zhaoying]

22 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

My guess is no: that LL's investigation of any ARs that resulted would make it clear that this was not the fault of the landowner.

This makes sense.  After all, a landowner cannot control if someone TP's onto their land who should not be there. Or for example, if someone TP's onto their land as an "adult avatar", then changes to a "child avatar".

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

I agree.  She looked much younger than 15 to me, too. 

One of the pics reminded me of the "baby beauty queens", where the young girl is made up to look much older for a "beauty pageant".  

[Youri Ashton]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

I agree.  She looked much younger than 15 to me, too.  Racial bias does.play a role.  Interestingly, as we get older, we tend to not look as old as we are!  

Problem is more with mostly Asian people being small already, on top of that you have people who were born with a disability that get affected too. So would these people now suddenly be not allowed to use what is reality for them IRL? This sounds rather a problem if it comes to race and disability already. Now, I think we can be sure Linden Lab didn't intend it this way at all, but I have no doubt in my mind that these new rules are going to be heavily abused to get people banned for no good reasons.

[Starberry Passion]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

One of the pics reminded me of the "baby beauty queens", where the young girl is made up to look much older for a "beauty pageant".  

Make up does age a person greatly, especially heavy use.

[Madi Melodious]

17 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

If you are a child avatar, that won't work. All child avatars, if you dress like a child, act like a child, look exactly like a child you're still going to be seen as a child.

Define child avatar?   Size, look, shape.  LL needs to clear that up.  If I wear tshirts, jeans and sneakers, am I a child?  What about my height?   The girl in the apartment next door to me looks like she is 12. I know she is in her mid twenties.    She is just small. 

So how big do I have to be fore I'm no longer a considered child?   Does my breast size count?  What about size of my waist?   These may seem like nonsense questions to you but to me they are real because one of the options I'm considering is "aging up." 

So how big do I have to be?

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Youri Ashton said:

Problem is more with mostly Asian people being small already, on top of that you have people who were born with a disability that get affected too. So would these people now suddenly be not allowed to use what is reality for them IRL? This sounds rather a problem if it comes to race and disability already. Now, I think we can be sure Linden Lab didn't intend it this way at all, but I have no doubt in my mind that these new rules are going to be heavily abused to get people banned for no good reasons.

I don't actually think.it will get more.people banned from SL.  I do think owners of adult regions will be more critical of those that might be of questionable age regardless.of their height/weight/boobs/butt size.

 

[Youri Ashton]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

I don't actually think.it will get more.people banned from SL.  I do think owners of adult regions will be more critical of those that might be of questionable age regardless.of their height/weight/boobs/butt size.

 

That sounds more like discrimination based on looks. Not on actual age. Now don't get me wrong, if it's very clearly a child or even baby avi, then yes that person shouldn't be in such a sim and should get banned. But to be fair, SL has seen such problems before in the past and history seems to be doomed to repeat itself. So yes I do worry about it.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I don't actually think.it will get more.people banned from SL.  I do think owners of adult regions will be more critical of those that might be of questionable age regardless.of their height/weight/boobs/butt size.

 

I think that since "Asian people look younger" keeps coming up, that will probably be taken into account with any Governance review of reporting. Easy peasy. (At least to me, it's "common sense".)

[Istelathis]

You guys are making this way too complex, LL could write a guide that was ten pages long and it still wouldn't cover it, worse yet it would just leave more questions open to interpretation.  We would have an even longer TOS with a bunch of meaningless jumble that is left to interpretation, which would never be airtight.

 

In the US (Florida)when selling alcohol, the employees are not required to go through a long checklist, it is left to common sense.  If a person looks as though they are under 40, ID them.  If they look older, just sell.  

If your avatar looks as though it is under 25, be cautious.  If you are not sure if it looks under 25, then come to the forums and ask, or use one of the multitude of sites out there that guess your age.  It does not need to be that complicated, if you think you are skimming the line, then you already have your answer.  

Edited May 3 by Istelathis

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I don't actually think.it will get more.people banned from SL.  I do think owners of adult regions will be more critical of those that might be of questionable age regardless.of their height/weight/boobs/butt size.

 

I also think it sends a message to online pedophile communities that they're not  going to be welcome to establish themselves in sl anymore. 

[MinkBlueleaf Fyrewik]

6 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

Define child avatar?   Size, look, shape.  LL needs to clear that up.  If I wear tshirts, jeans and sneakers, am I a child?  What about my height?   The girl in the apartment next door to me looks like she is 12. I know she is in her mid twenties.    She is just small. 

So how big do I have to be fore I'm no longer a considered child?   Does my breast size count?  What about size of my waist?   These may seem like nonsense questions to you but to me they are real because one of the options I'm considering is "aging up." 

So how big do I have to be?

https://lindenlab.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/31000173097-child-avatar-faq/#Q%3A-How-do-you-define-a-child-avatar? Don't take this wrong way but Linden Lab has already said they ain't gunner clear it up. "Creating a list of specifications for something like this can be a slippery slope, and we certainly don’t want to give out directions on how to circumvent any policies." 

[MissSweetViolet]

6 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

You guys are making this way too complex, LL could write a guide that was ten pages long and it still wouldn't cover it, worse yet it would just leave more questions open to interpretation.  We would have an even longer TOS with a bunch of meaningless jumble that is left to interpretation, which would never be airtight.

 

In the US (Florida)when selling alcohol, the employees are not required to go through a long checklist, it is left to common sense.  If a person looks as though they are under 40, ID them.  If they look older, just sell.  

If your avatar looks as though it is under 25, be cautious.  If you are not sure if it looks under 25, then come to the forums and ask, or use one of the multitude of sites out there that guess your age.  It does not need to be that complicated, if you think you are skimming the line, then you already have your answer.  

Agreed, and should also be added too that unless someone is engaging in adult content/at adult places, how you look shouldn't even be an issue so long as things are covered up per parcel rating requirement/ToS.

Edited May 3 by MissSweetViolet
Spelling corrections.

[Youri Ashton]

2 minutes ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

I also think it sends a message to online pedophile communities that they're not  going to be welcome to establish themselves in sl anymore. 

I think no one sane has any sympathy for these individuals getting banned finally. Something that should have happened a long time ago. I rather think those that abuse anime/manga characters for their deviant thoughts should also get a serious problem, but that's me I guess.

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Youri Ashton said:

That sounds more like discrimination based on looks. Not on actual age. Now don't get me wrong, if it's very clearly a child or even baby avi, then yes that person shouldn't be in such a sim and should get banned. But to be fair, SL has seen such problems before in the past and history seems to be doomed to repeat itself. So yes I do worry about it.

Yes, it very much is discrimination based on looks and has been that way as.long as I've been in SL.  The new rules may make it worse.  Region owners have always had the last word in who or what they allow.  One place I visited years ago did not allow human male avatars but did allow human females.  Some don't allow male avatars at all.  

Regardless.of what others in this thread have implied, I have no problem with petite females.  Those that use them to hover near the line of what is and isn't adult...yeah those are the ones people take issue with.

[Starberry Passion]

6 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

Define child avatar?   Size, look, shape.  LL needs to clear that up.  If I wear tshirts, jeans and sneakers, am I a child?  What about my height?   The girl in the apartment next door to me looks like she is 12. I know she is in her mid twenties.    She is just small. 

So how big do I have to be fore I'm no longer a considered child?   Does my breast size count?  What about size of my waist?   These may seem like nonsense questions to you but to me they are real because one of the options I'm considering is "aging up." 

So how big do I have to be?

Height doesn't matter

The other stuff, that's the thing. I can't help you there, Linden Lab is leaving it to the community.

I, personally, know that it is very hard to determine what a child avatar. You can clearly see what a toddler looks like, a baby looks like but after you hit a certain level It is difficult without other cues to give off that childness. Then you have adults that just like cute things, love being cute. Even if you're short you can be big in size and still be a child, then you had tall people as tall as 6 still considered a child, I've seen people considered a woman in a reborn a child, she was taller and bigger than I am, had on a Briannon head.

It's more how you act, what you're saying, if you're acting like a child, pretending to be underage, saying you're under 18, if you're wearing clothing only children would wear like a diaper with a onesie over it.

They already said it's a slippery slope, as well so people will have to look at such cues.

[Katherine Heartsong]

1 hour ago, Daniel Regenbogen said:

No, it isn't. It is something forbidden now, but it still isn't doing anything adult. Walking down a street isn't an adult action. Fixing a rental box isn't an adult action. Shopping (for non-adult items) isn't an adult action. Heck, skinny dipping isn't an adult action.

It feels more and more like "Moms for Liberty" have taken over the policy making.

Yup. It's forbidden by the ToS you agree to when you use SL. No child avatars on A-rated land. What is the point of keeping bringing intent/actions up? Intent, adult or not, does not matter.

Not permitting child avis on A-rated lands is about the simplest way to address bad actors, and whatever LL needs to address, given the whole BoM loophole that still needs addressing/explaining and potential lack of updated child avatars available that meet the other requirements being brought into force.

Still have not heard a good reason (in 50 pages) beyond "Its annoying" or "I don't wanna to be made to do that" why taking 5–10 seconds and changing avatars to go onto A-rated sim seems so problematic. Frustrating, perhaps. Annoying? Perhaps. Personally don't like it? Perhaps.

An actual issue, as in "I can't do that"? No, everyone has access to free adult avatars to go and fiddle with a rental box or shop on A-rated land.

The exit door's here if anyone doesn't like the new rules that much.

PS. Mom's for Liberty would be fine with SLs sexy side. That's the one co-founded by Bridget Ziegler, the school board trustee turned threesome-loving lady. She might have fun, in fact. But I tease with this fact, I know what you were implying.

[Starberry Passion]

16 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think that since "Asian people look younger" keeps coming up, that will probably be taken into account with any Governance review of reporting. Easy peasy. (At least to me, it's "common sense".)

It's true for most Asian people, for example both of these women are  50 years old.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Hmm, now that I think of it, the ToS change will "kill" the "Family-Friendly Nude Beach" business.

I shall not shed a tear for them.  They can put up signs, "no nude children".

Are children even allowed at such places even if the child is fully-clothed now?

[Katherine Heartsong]

48 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

AI is still pretty bad at determining age. I wonder too if a racial bias might be part of the problem, or if it's just a gender bias based on how the media expects women to look so young. You know there are people who a assume a young black girl is more "mature" than they would assume for a white or Asian girl of the same age.

I'd guess the girl in that picture is no more than 8 years old, based on both her facial features and her neck and shoulder width.

I was thinking about 8 as well. Especially given the look of a bit of baby fat still in the rounded face shape and the proportions of th head to body.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

3 hours ago, Leslie Trihey said:

This punishes everyone BUT the people that need to be punished.

NO IT DOESN'T.

It punishes the over-entitled pint sized anti-adult-activities walking ToS violations who used to attack adult parcels., and others who look just like them.

 

This is just stage one, today they punish the walking ToS violations, but we're still waiting for the OTHERR shoe to drop.

The one where they impose some draconian checks on those of us who are not part of the walking ToS Violation community, EVERYONE ELSE..

 

We're all going to get slammed for the "non-rights" of a noisy over-entitled minority who should NEVER have been allowed oon A Rated land in the first place.

 

2 hours ago, Leslie Trihey said:

I feel as a few people aren't even reading the concerns of people against these TOS changes

As somebody who has been an admin on A rated land, I STOPPED caring about the butthurt of Walking ToS Violation avatars years ago, when I realised just how many of them were willing to spend as long as you could stomach them prattling, trying to defend theirr fraudulent claims that the parcel owners rules and LL ToS somehow magically didn't apply to their over entitled little butts, because "My Little Paedo-Bait - 10 Year old Japanese Comic Book streetwalkers  are MAGIC!".

 

Now, for whatever time is left before LL drop the anti-adult "other shoe", A rated admins can relax, as they no longer have to listen to an hour of pathetic laughable excuses for breaking the ToS, and can instead simply go straight to "Abuse Report, Ban, and Puntkick home"

 

Bliss!

 

And for the record, I've spent more than 8 years  in SL being 1) less than 7 ft tall ( my avi is 5'7" in flat feet, 6'1" in 6 " heels, so the same height as my FirstLife avi ), 2) not a "Kupra Karen", and NEVER been accused of having a child avatar, so no, the whining pro Walking ToS violation members of the Campaign for Real Height, who constantly kvetch about female avatars over 5'4" being "giants, are not "in danger".

 

 

[brodiac90]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Hmm, now that I think of it, the ToS change will "kill" the "Family-Friendly Nude Beach" business.

I shall not shed a tear for them.  They can put up signs, "no nude children".

Are children even allowed at such places even if the child is fully-clothed now?

Can I just say that as a child avatar I agree. Many kids hated those places and avoided them like the plague.