What is with the constant upgrades??

[Rowan Amore]

Minimum requirements for Firestorm on the left, recommended on the right...

	Minimum (you can probably log on and perform basic functions)
Operating system	Windows 10, 32-bit	Windows 10, 64-bit
	Linux 64-bit kernel 5.0	Linux 64-bit kernel 5.0 or newer 1)
	Mac OS 11 (Big Sur) 2)	Mac OS 11 (Big Sur)
Internet Connection	• 750 Kbps down, 100 Kbps up • Wireless connections3) may work, but are not officially supported by Linden Lab.4)	• 10 Mbps down, 1 Mbps up • A fast, hardwired connection.
Display	1024×768 pixels	1920×1080 pixels
Memory	8 GB for 64-bit systems 4 GB for 32-bit systems	16 GB
Disk Space	1 GB application, 1 GB cache	1 GB application, 10 GB cache
Processor5)	Dual Core @ 2.70 GHz	Quad Core @ 3.30 GHz 6)7)
Graphics Card(0)	Nvidia GTX 750Ti	NVidia GeForce GTX 980
		AMD Radeon R9 290X 1.12 GHz with 4 GB Memory 8)

 

Edited April 7 by Rowan Amore

[Bagnu]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

Minimum requirements for Firestorm on the left, recommended on the right...

	Minimum (you can probably log on and perform basic functions)
Operating system	Windows 10, 32-bit	Windows 10, 64-bit
	Linux 64-bit kernel 5.0	Linux 64-bit kernel 5.0 or newer 1)
	Mac OS 11 (Big Sur) 2)	Mac OS 11 (Big Sur)
Internet Connection	• 750 Kbps down, 100 Kbps up • Wireless connections3) may work, but are not officially supported by Linden Lab.4)	• 10 Mbps down, 1 Mbps up • A fast, hardwired connection.
Display	1024×768 pixels	1920×1080 pixels
Memory	8 GB for 64-bit systems 4 GB for 32-bit systems	16 GB
Disk Space	1 GB application, 1 GB cache	1 GB application, 10 GB cache
Processor5)	Dual Core @ 2.70 GHz	Quad Core @ 3.30 GHz 6)7)
Graphics Card(0)	Nvidia GTX 750Ti	NVidia GeForce GTX 980
		AMD Radeon R9 290X 1.12 GHz with 4 GB Memory 8)

 

I noticed the 2.70 Ghz minimum requirement when I was on that page. The OP's is running at 1 GH, but can turboboost to 3.60 Ghz. Which is an interesting question as to whether that "boost" makes is enough fit the minimum requirements. But still, if it works properly after a while, I tend to agree that it's possibly more of a paging issue. 

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

I noticed the 2.70 Ghz minimum requirement when I was on that page. The OP's is running at 1 GH, but can turboboost to 3.60 Ghz. Which is an interesting question as to whether that "boost" makes is enough fit the minimum requirements. But still, if it works properly after a while, I tend to agree that it's possibly more of a paging issue. 

As was already mentioned, though, the integrated graphics is a no go.

[AmeliaJ08]

15 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

I noticed the 2.70 Ghz minimum requirement when I was on that page. The OP's is running at 1 GH, but can turboboost to 3.60 Ghz. Which is an interesting question as to whether that "boost" makes is enough fit the minimum requirements. But still, if it works properly after a while, I tend to agree that it's possibly more of a paging issue. 

It does, we might just be seeing a rare occasion when the chip is sitting near its base clock of 1GHz but it also may mean the chip is throttling hard since you would expect it to be sitting in its upper boost clock range when running an application like SL and the iGPU enabled. The chip should comfortably sit for long periods at over 3GHz and should be boosting as fast as it can.

It could be throttling, it could be running on battery which will force lower clock speeds or a power saving Windows power profile might be enabled - hard to say from our end. Crashing etc makes me lean towards throttling due to excessive heat and iGPU basically just falling over dead due to ALM/PBR era SL just being too much for the integrated graphics at this point,

 

 

Edited April 7 by AmeliaJ08

[Red52]

On 4/6/2024 at 8:05 AM, AmeliaJ08 said:

 

Your CPU also appears to be throttling (slowing down) hard which suggests you are either running on battery power or have a thermal issue, the laptop might well need a good internal clean out and your report of crashes etc. make me think this might be what is wrong. They get very dusty inside and when they do they begin to struggle to cool themselves down and instability can be the result. If you aren't comfortable opening and removing internal components for cleaning etc I would suggest taking it to a repair shop for a service.

Really though you are asking a lot of a laptop that was never designed to run games or SL, it's just too intensive an application for the hardware.

Thank you for all of your help and information, Amelia!  SL with FS ran perfectly fine on this laptop for about a year/ year and a half, when I purchased it about 4 years ago.   I took it in to a repair shop to fix/ update the graphics card about a year ago; I don't recall what they actually did though and continued with FS problems.  That's when I switched to the official SL viewer.  I do understand it may need another clean out, and I will also check into whether I can add more memory as someone else suggested.  I appreciate you trying to help 🙂 

[Red52]

On 4/6/2024 at 12:16 PM, Bagnu said:

The present official release of Firestorm is the last one that supports 32 bit.

https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/changelog:firestorm_change_log_6.6.17.70368

Hi Bagnu- my laptop is 64 bit.  I always download the 64 bit viewer because I thought that's what I had to do? Will the 32 bit download work on a 64 bit laptop? Thanks!

[AmeliaJ08]

51 minutes ago, Red52 said:

Hi Bagnu- my laptop is 64 bit.  I always download the 64 bit viewer because I thought that's what I had to do? Will the 32 bit download work on a 64 bit laptop? Thanks!

It will work but will be of no benefit, it will likely be worse. 32 bits means it can only address 4GB of RAM (memory), your laptop has a lot more than that and Second Life would very much like to use it

But yeah you can run 32 bit applications on a 64 bit laptop if you want, there's just no reason to. The compatibility is there for older software.

 

 

Edited April 9 by AmeliaJ08

[Red52]

2 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

It will work but will be of no benefit, it will likely be worse. 32 bits means it can only address 4GB of RAM (memory), your laptop has a lot more than that and Second Life would very much like to use it

But yeah you can run 32 bit applications on a 64 bit laptop if you want, there's just no reason to. The compatibility is there for older software.

 

 

Thank you for the clarification, Amelia!  I looked up my RAM and it is currently 12 GB.  I also looked up if I can expand it, and I believe I can up to 20 GB. I researched more and cannot upgrade my graphics card on this laptop, unfortunately.  I will do more to learn what programs/ background processes I can turn off safely, so I (hopefully) won't mess up my computer further 😏

[Monty Linden]

50 minutes ago, Red52 said:

Thank you for the clarification, Amelia!  I looked up my RAM and it is currently 12 GB.  I also looked up if I can expand it, and I believe I can up to 20 GB.

Before you spend money, always do the cheap/easy/likely things first.  You can run 'Task Manager' and monitor memory usage while you're using SL.  If memory use isn't near capacity when problems arise, then adding more may not help.  Time to look elsewhere.

Windows' 'Event Viewer' very likely has a record of internal problems leading to your viewer woes.  But this is a tool that devs don't particularly like or use (though they should).  Teaching it is beyond a response in a forum thread.  But if you want to learn how to diagnose problems of any kind, this is where you might start.  It's where a rent-a-nerd will start...

[Red52]

10 hours ago, Monty Linden said:

Before you spend money, always do the cheap/easy/likely things first.  You can run 'Task Manager' and monitor memory usage while you're using SL.  If memory use isn't near capacity when problems arise, then adding more may not help.  Time to look elsewhere.

Windows' 'Event Viewer' very likely has a record of internal problems leading to your viewer woes.  But this is a tool that devs don't particularly like or use (though they should).  Teaching it is beyond a response in a forum thread.  But if you want to learn how to diagnose problems of any kind, this is where you might start.  It's where a rent-a-nerd will start...

Thank you, Monty! That's my plan before I invest in more memory and/ or replacing my laptop.  I'm trying to learn what I can do to free up RAM before spending (more) money 🙂 Thank you for the info!

 

[rasterscan]

On 4/6/2024 at 3:18 AM, Red52 said:

Are there any other decent third party viewers you would recommend? Thank you!

Genesis. TPV approved. It's a gem. Developed by the ex singularity crew I read, can't confirm though. Doesn't demand much of the computer. I love it.

Edited April 9 by rasterscan

[Nalates Urriah]

@Red52 Everyone is going way tech... Reading your computer specs, your computer is not THAT bad. But it is slow.

So do a simple thing and check if the Windows operating system has problems. Steps:

1. Open a Command Window as Admin- (Instructions for Win 10 and 11)
2. Type in SFC /SCANNOW Press Enter
3. Let it run. Takes a few minutes. It ends saying no problem, fixed problems, or can't fix problems.
   1. If no problems, close the window and use the computer
   2. If problems were fixed, restart the computer and use it.
   3. If 'can't fix', now you need grand-kids help. The fix is to run DISM - but it is complicated.

The SFC (System File Check) will fix a wide range of problems on a Windows machine. Many strange or odd problems are fixed by cleaning up Windows system files.

Once one is confident Windows is not the problem then look else where.

[Jaylinbridges]

15 hours ago, Red52 said:

I'm trying to learn what I can do to free up RAM before spending (more) money 🙂 Thank you for the info!

You have enough RAM (integrated graphics) to run SL in low populated regions.   I already suggested how you can free up Firestorm using less RAM.  Since you gave up on installing FS, you must not have used my settings.  

First, only install FS in a very low lag region, like one of the FS sandboxes or LL empty regions.  Your home location has a dozen stacked multi scene skyboxes you are sharing region resources with.  Depending on who moves there and what they rez, you could have Script lag, Physics lag, and Agent lag from all your neighbors.  So use a quiet empty region to install FS.

A clean FS install is probably needed too, if you last used FS 4 years ago.  You didn't say you did that.

Finally, after a clean install of the latest FS, at an empty region, go to FS Preferences and set Graphics as follows:

1) Set Your Performance to Low on the slider

2) In Graphics/Hardware Settings, Enable (check) Lossy Texture Compression.

3) In Graphics/Rendering, Enable (check) Restrict Maximum texture resolution to 512 px.

4) In Graphics/Rendering, Limit Framerate to FPS of 40.

5) And relog FS to save these settings.

That should help with your underpowered laptop.  I have helped many with laptops like yours, and tuning them down to the bare minimum has allowed them to stay in SL without buying a new computer (for now at least.)

As far as you giving up on FS because you could not move your avatar, that has nothing to do with your prior viewer.  It means FS is still trying to load everything for the first time, and will not enable your AO until the last.  It could also mean it crashed before finishing loading - another sign of too busy a region for the initial install. We also don't know the size and organization of your inventory.  A large and flat inventory can cause all the problems you are having as well.

And finally - the System Info you posted here from the SL Viewer shows they set your Performance to 1 out of 7, or Lowest possible.  That tells you they think your laptop must run an the very bottom of graphics features.   When you run the default Firestorm, it does not tune your Performance to the absolute bottom.  The Beta PBR FS does that, but not the FS Release.  So you need to make the settings above before you can get FS working for you.

BTW, for general information,  I usually run my system at Ultra, and have a mid range gaming system.  When I go to a loaded regions, the Belli 5th anniversary is a good example, my VRAM usage slowly moves up to 6000 MB.  If I use the settings above, and move all over the 4 regions, my VRAM usage maxes out at 650 MB.  So if low memory is your problem, using 650 MB is better than using 6000 MB.  Low memory will thrash and crash you eventually, with plenty of stalls just for fun.

Edited April 10 by Jaylinbridges

[AmeliaJ08]

On 4/7/2024 at 3:09 PM, Rowan Amore said:

Minimum requirements for Firestorm on the left, recommended on the right...

	Minimum (you can probably log on and perform basic functions)
Operating system	Windows 10, 32-bit	Windows 10, 64-bit
	Linux 64-bit kernel 5.0	Linux 64-bit kernel 5.0 or newer 1)
	Mac OS 11 (Big Sur) 2)	Mac OS 11 (Big Sur)
Internet Connection	• 750 Kbps down, 100 Kbps up • Wireless connections3) may work, but are not officially supported by Linden Lab.4)	• 10 Mbps down, 1 Mbps up • A fast, hardwired connection.
Display	1024×768 pixels	1920×1080 pixels
Memory	8 GB for 64-bit systems 4 GB for 32-bit systems	16 GB
Disk Space	1 GB application, 1 GB cache	1 GB application, 10 GB cache
Processor5)	Dual Core @ 2.70 GHz	Quad Core @ 3.30 GHz 6)7)
Graphics Card(0)	Nvidia GTX 750Ti	NVidia GeForce GTX 980
		AMD Radeon R9 290X 1.12 GHz with 4 GB Memory 8)

 

Had never seen that before, glad it exists. LL's own recommended specs are absolutely useless! I was hoping they might update it with the release of the PBR viewer since it really needs some quite specific hardware beyond what they are recommending on their website.

 

[JeromFranzic]

19 hours ago, rasterscan said:

Genesis. TPV approved. It's a gem. Developed by the ex singularity crew I read, can't confirm though. Doesn't demand much of the computer. I love it.

This... plus Cool VL Viewer with PBR and ALM turned off works well for PC's stuck with integrated graphics. Genesis and VL use a V1 type interface.

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Had never seen that before, glad it exists. LL's own recommended specs are absolutely useless! I was hoping they might update it with the release of the PBR viewer since it really needs some quite specific hardware beyond what they are recommending on their website.

 

LL doesn't even have a bare minimum graphics card mentioned anymore although they did in the past.   All they say now is minimum OpenGL 3.2 and recommended Open GL 4.1.   Being a non-tech person, that means nothing to me.  🤣

[Resi Pfeffer]

21 hours ago, Red52 said:

I'm trying to learn what I can do to free up RAM before spending (more) money

Its worth keeping the amount of open tabs in your internet browser to just a few, maybe even not using the browser at all for as long as you test the SL Viewer. 
Browsers like to eat up a lot of memory, especially when a lot of tabs are opened.

[AmeliaJ08]

6 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

LL doesn't even have a bare minimum graphics card mentioned anymore although they did in the past.   All they say now is minimum OpenGL 3.2 and recommended Open GL 4.1.   Being a non-tech person, that means nothing to me.  🤣

Yep, it's absolutely useless to list the API as a recommended specification... especially since OpenGL 4.1 released in 2010

Try and run SL on graphics hardware from 2010 and you're gonna have a bad time, that's GeForce 400 series era... it would probably catch fire.

 

[Perrie Juran]

On 4/9/2024 at 2:09 PM, rasterscan said:

TPV approved

From:   https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Third_Party_Viewer_Directory

Linden Lab does not give approval to any Third Party Viewers. The viewers in the directory self-certify that they are in compliance with the Lab's policies on Third Party Viewers. Should a TPV be found not in compliance, depending on the nature of the violation, LL will take appropriate measures up to and including removing that Viewer from the Third Party Directory.

We all use these Viewers at our own risk.

[Jaylinbridges]

2 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Try and run SL on graphics hardware from 2010 and you're gonna have a bad time, that's GeForce 400 series era... it would probably catch fire.

Actually would probably run cooler than today's high end cards.

That Firestorm Minimum requirement can do a lot more than "log in and do basic functions"  It is just someone's best guess, because they don't have an older optimized system to test.

They say a GTX750 Ti is the minimum graphics card.  Well I used a GTX550 Ti up to a couple months ago, and never had a performance issue.  My use was getting a smooth crash free operation in busy (40 avatar) clubs on overloaded regions.  30 FPS with that mess, and 80 FPS at my home, with 3000 LI rezzed.  I always limit my FPS to 40 fps because it makes no difference to my eyes on my 1920x1080 dual monitors.

The GTX 550Ti first came out in March 2011, and I bought mine with 2GB VRAM in May 2012.  The only reason I replaced it with a more modern NVIDIA card was to get more VRAM.  It has a higher FPS, but since I limit that to 40 FPS I see no difference.  Well my new card does handle some particles (fog) better, and of course I can run PBS full on with no issues.  

A Minimum spec should assume a PBR Viewer (no ALM) with NO reflections turned on, and no shadows, and a frame rate of at least 20 fps in a crowded club.  

Maybe if I used my old 550Ti card with a "2 core 2.7 Mhz GPU" it might be the minimum - but here they are mixing up graphics and GPU generations.  In 2012 there were 4 core, 3.9 Mhz GPU's available. 

They also say nothing about integrated graphics - because no one on the Firestorm team would be caught dead with one.

At least LL is setting the SL performance for weak integrated graphics as low as possible with their PBR viewer - turning all shaders off, so the majority of users with weak laptops can still log in.  Apparently marketing and retention is giving the viewer designers some feedback.

 

Edited April 10 by Jaylinbridges

[AmeliaJ08]

17 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Actually would probably run cooler than today's high end cards.

That Firestorm Minimum requirement can do a lot more than "log in and do basic functions"  It is just someone's best guess, because they don't have an older optimized system to test.

They say a GTX750 Ti is the minimum graphics card.  Well I used a GTX550 Ti up to a couple months ago, and never had a performance issue.  My use was getting a smooth crash free operation in busy (40 avatar) clubs on overloaded regions.  30 FPS with that mess, and 80 FPS at my home, with 3000 LI rezzed.  I always limit my FPS to 40 fps because it makes no difference to my eyes on my 1920x1080 dual monitors.

The GTX 550Ti first came out in March 2011, and I bought mine with 2GB VRAM in May 2012.  The only reason I replaced it with a more modern NVIDIA card was to get more VRAM.  It has a higher FPS, but since I limit that to 40 FPS I see no difference.  Well my new card does handle some particles (fog) better, and of course I can run PBS full on with no issues.  

A Minimum spec should assume a PBR Viewer (no ALM) with NO reflections turned on, and no shadows, and a frame rate of at least 20 fps in a crowded club.  

Maybe if I used my old 550Ti card with a "2 core 2.7 Mhz GPU" it might be the minimum - but here they are mixing up graphics and GPU generations.  In 2012 there were 4 core, 3.9 Mhz GPU's available. 

They also say nothing about integrated graphics - because no one on the Firestorm team would be caught dead with one.

At least LL is setting the SL performance for weak integrated graphics as low as possible with their PBR viewer - turning all shaders off, so the majority of users with weak laptops can still log in.  Apparently marketing and retention is giving the viewer designers some feedback.

 

Modern cards sit at 40-60% utilization at best in SL even on the newest PBR code, prior to that it would be rare to see 30% utilization... they don't heat up much since they're barely being used.

I'm surprised you found a 550Ti adequate, I found newer cards with more theoretical performance like the 600 series were pretty much unusable if ALM was enabled. I don't really tolerate anything below 30fps though, that might be the difference. I wouldn't mind so much if it was just the world view but I find the UI of all SL viewers I have found becomes very sluggish and annoying at lower frame rates.

Edited April 11 by AmeliaJ08

[Jaylinbridges]

3 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

I'm surprised you found a 550Ti adequate, I found newer cards with more theoretical performance like the 600 series were pretty much unusable if ALM was enabled. I don't really tolerate anything below 30fps

I always had ALM turned off with the 550Ti in any crowded situation. I only turned it on at home for some pics, but usually no ALM made better pics for the portraits I was  making.  Nothing I was photographing needed materials, and shadows were a joke to me.   The 550TI usually ran about 40 C max even when stressed.  EVGA cards with fan control can easily run cool.  Being air cooled, it depending more on room temperature.  When the room temp was 90 F (and 100F outside) the card ran about 12 C hotter than my normal 70 F RT, where it would idle at 35 C and hit 40 C in clubs.

It was always the increased VRAM requirement that affected me.  Especially since I normally run two instances of FS on the same video card, one account on each monitor.  Once 2GB was hit, it start to page, and soon crash.  This was when both accounts were in crowded clubs.  I could run 4 accounts at home forever with the 550Ti.

Most younger "gamers" with the latest hardware underestimate what an old system can do, IF you just turn off the extra features, and restrict memory by compression and texture size.  It is beyond their experience to have to make do with the same performance that they had in 2014.  But take away their income and savings, and see how they feel.

 

Edited April 11 by Jaylinbridges

[Red52]

On 4/9/2024 at 2:09 PM, rasterscan said:

Genesis. TPV approved. It's a gem. Developed by the ex singularity crew I read, can't confirm though. Doesn't demand much of the computer. I love it.

Thank you!

[Red52]

On 4/9/2024 at 2:13 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

@Red52 Everyone is going way tech... Reading your computer specs, your computer is not THAT bad. But it is slow.

So do a simple thing and check if the Windows operating system has problems. Steps:

1. Open a Command Window as Admin- (Instructions for Win 10 and 11)
2. Type in SFC /SCANNOW Press Enter
3. Let it run. Takes a few minutes. It ends saying no problem, fixed problems, or can't fix problems.
   1. If no problems, close the window and use the computer
   2. If problems were fixed, restart the computer and use it.
   3. If 'can't fix', now you need grand-kids help. The fix is to run DISM - but it is complicated.

The SFC (System File Check) will fix a wide range of problems on a Windows machine. Many strange or odd problems are fixed by cleaning up Windows system files.

Once one is confident Windows is not the problem then look else where.

Thank you so much for the information and detailed steps! I will try this, and get help from family members who understand computers if needed 🙂 

 

[Red52]

On 4/10/2024 at 2:27 AM, Jaylinbridges said:

You have enough RAM (integrated graphics) to run SL in low populated regions.   I already suggested how you can free up Firestorm using less RAM.  Since you gave up on installing FS, you must not have used my settings.  

First, only install FS in a very low lag region, like one of the FS sandboxes or LL empty regions.  Your home location has a dozen stacked multi scene skyboxes you are sharing region resources with.  Depending on who moves there and what they rez, you could have Script lag, Physics lag, and Agent lag from all your neighbors.  So use a quiet empty region to install FS.

A clean FS install is probably needed too, if you last used FS 4 years ago.  You didn't say you did that.

Finally, after a clean install of the latest FS, at an empty region, go to FS Preferences and set Graphics as follows:

1) Set Your Performance to Low on the slider

2) In Graphics/Hardware Settings, Enable (check) Lossy Texture Compression.

3) In Graphics/Rendering, Enable (check) Restrict Maximum texture resolution to 512 px.

4) In Graphics/Rendering, Limit Framerate to FPS of 40.

5) And relog FS to save these settings.

That should help with your underpowered laptop.  I have helped many with laptops like yours, and tuning them down to the bare minimum has allowed them to stay in SL without buying a new computer (for now at least.)

As far as you giving up on FS because you could not move your avatar, that has nothing to do with your prior viewer.  It means FS is still trying to load everything for the first time, and will not enable your AO until the last.  It could also mean it crashed before finishing loading - another sign of too busy a region for the initial install. We also don't know the size and organization of your inventory.  A large and flat inventory can cause all the problems you are having as well.

And finally - the System Info you posted here from the SL Viewer shows they set your Performance to 1 out of 7, or Lowest possible.  That tells you they think your laptop must run an the very bottom of graphics features.   When you run the default Firestorm, it does not tune your Performance to the absolute bottom.  The Beta PBR FS does that, but not the FS Release.  So you need to make the settings above before you can get FS working for you.

BTW, for general information,  I usually run my system at Ultra, and have a mid range gaming system.  When I go to a loaded regions, the Belli 5th anniversary is a good example, my VRAM usage slowly moves up to 6000 MB.  If I use the settings above, and move all over the 4 regions, my VRAM usage maxes out at 650 MB.  So if low memory is your problem, using 650 MB is better than using 6000 MB.  Low memory will thrash and crash you eventually, with plenty of stalls just for fun.

Wow! Thank you so much for all of this info and detailed explanations!  I will try FS again and follow your setting recommendations.  Two questions: 1) I am always logged out of SL before I download a viewer, so not clear on what you mean by going to a low lag region to install?; 2) On point 5, you stated 'And relog FS to save these settings.'  Can you please explain how to do that? I am not a tech-geek, unfortunately 😞  Thanks again!