Is PIOF essentially "Age Verification"?

[Modulated]

3 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

What is not clear about "they are legally not allowed" to share that kind of information? 
I don't know for the rest of the world, but here in EU it works that way.

And the EU is not really credit card territory in the first place.
I can pay with my bank debit cards everywhere in Europe, in shops, in restaurants, on the internet.
Most people in the EU simply don't have credit cards. Me neither.

Paypal is connected with my bank account at my main bank.
And... Paypal has a bank status in Europe. So they can't spread personal information to third parties like their other customers like LL, Amazon or you name it. They handle the payment and that's it.

Paypal is not a bank, by U.S. rules, because deposits are not federally insured (as all banks that are banks must be)  I think the point being missed are the rules set forth in the U.S. as far as banking goes. I get you all have different laws there, that is not the issue.  LL is a U.S. based company and the rules here are paramount above all else, in regards to banks, withdrawals, payment info...etc. You basically agree to such when accepting the tos pretty much.

Edited March 23 by Modulated

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Modulated said:

They wouldn't need to see the person's details directly per se, unless they were cashing out or something, but when added as a secondary on a bank account, as you said details are given. That sub account is given its own unique i.d. and transactional info, and the name , d.o.b.  ,age, etc are all verified and tied to that transactional information. When a sub user uses a card from that account, the verification service will know if its your or the other person on every transaction pretty much.

Yes, of course the bank will know.  I'm just wondering whether LL has the ability or right to the info.  Is the bank (or credit card company) really checking age requirements on websites the card is used on?  Does LL verify the age through the bank of the person using the card? 

 

There really is no iron-clad way for LL to age-verify anyone, IMO.   Even requiring government ID is not fool proof.  Sneak mom's ID out of her wallet along with her credit card and done.

[Tayt3rChip]

Just now, Modulated said:

Ok , try moving money out of SL without following the rules of the U.S. and get back to me when you can actually do it.

What does moving money out of SL have to do with the OP's original question  ? I am responding to the OP's original question of whether having PIOF is an effective age verifier. No one here is talking about moving money out of SL. Having PIOF does not tell LL anything about the age of the account holder unless they are in the US. SL is not restricted to the US alone. As it currently stands children outside of the US could have PIOF , so NO it is NOT an effective age verifier for all of SL users. What part of my response are you not getting? 

[Sid Nagy]

11 minutes ago, Modulated said:

Paypal is not a bank, by U.S. rules, because deposits are not federally insured (as all banks that are banks must be)  I think the point being missed are the rules set forth in the U.S. as far as banking goes. I get you all have different laws there, that is not the issue.  LL is a U.S. based company and the rules here are paramount above all else, in regards to banks, withdrawals, payment info...etc.

US rules and laws, don't overrule the European rules and visa versa.
Guess why LL start charging VAT for EU citizens in the past?  European laws.

Europe will not change their banking laws and the customer protection laws so that LL can verify the age of their customers. They will not get that information from European customers that way.

So to conclude, as far as I'm concerned, it might work for Credit Card orientated countries like the USA (I don't know much about the laws in the USA about this), but not really for the rest of the world. Certainly not for citizens of the EU who use EU banks for their financial affairs. And for us Paypal is a European bank with head office in Luxembourg,

Edited March 23 by Sid Nagy
SATURDAY

[sirhc DeSantis]

to sid - as being a euro the at snail is borked - you are talking to someone who uses Fahrenheit. Do not expect sense

[Modulated]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Yes, of course the bank will know.  I'm just wondering whether LL has the ability or right to the info.  Is the bank (or credit card company) really checking age requirements on websites the card is used on?  Does LL verify the age through the bank of the person using the card? 

 

There really is no iron-clad way for LL to age-verify anyone, IMO.   Even requiring government ID is not fool proof.  Sneak mom's ID out of her wallet along with her credit card and done.

Like i said previously, verification and payments work in parallel, anytime you make a transaction with an account, the information is tied directly to the details given when the account was created. This is *any* transaction, the bank knows, the card provider knows, e-verify and other verification services. Verification absolutely works .

[Modulated]

3 minutes ago, sirhc DeSantis said:

to sid - as being a euro the at snail is borked - you are talking to someone who uses Fahrenheit. Do not expect sense

This has what to do with anything? lol

[Modulated]

I'll just end it and say if they ever require full on verification and block accounts that do not provide it, I am all for that. 

[Sid Nagy]

I understand Sirhc completely

Generally speaking:  A big chunk of Americans (the Fahrenheit users) often don't know much about how the rest of the world functions.  USA and Europa are not 1 on 1 compatible.
In general the rest of the world knows more about the USA than the other way around. That has to do with the USA being a very important country politically and being pretty dominant in the film and TV industry. We over here all know or have heard about the TV series CSI. I don't think all Americans will know Tatort. Just to give an example.
 

Not even measuring temperatures is the same.

Everybody on these parts of the forums communicates in English, but we can have very different backgrounds, traditions, communication styles, values, norms and laws to abide in our home countries.

Edited March 23 by Sid Nagy

[Wincil]

Age verification used to be a thing on second life them again that got removed due to how buggy it is.

[Blush Bravin]

The idea that minors in the USA cannot use credit cards legally is misleading. As a retired teacher, I taught 12 year olds mostly, I saw many of my students with their own credit cards. Those cards were obtained by their parents and issued by the card company for the specific use of the minor child.

Children under the age of 18 are not allowed to enter into credit card agreements, but many card issuers will allow minors to become authorized card users. Some issuers have minimum age requirements, that necessitate authorized users must be at least 13 or 16 years old.

[Innula Zenovka]

I would say that PIOF isn't the same as age verification, since there are various perfectly legitimate ways of providing LL with payment info (and using it) that are available to at least some people under 18 in some jurisdictions.    

I would also, for what it's worth, say that age verification is a not a matter of scientific accuracy but of taking reasonable measures to comply with various legal requirements.

Edited March 23 by Innula Zenovka

[Katherine Heartsong]

2 hours ago, Cindy Evanier said:

payment information on file

and @Love Zhaoying  I think no if a kid uses parents card?

But how does a child use a parent's card without the parent knowing? That point has always confused me.

Who has enough money they don't care about the charges on a CC bill? I know I don't. I get my CC bill, look over every transaction to make sure XYZ subscription service didn't charge me twice etc etc. If I saw "LindenLabs" or any other charge I didn't recognize, I'd be on the phone with my bank after asking around the folks in my household.

Also, if I'd ever tried a stunt like that and been caught? Trust me, I grew up in an era I'd have only ever done it once. < old

[Sid Nagy]

9 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

But how does a child use a parent's card without the parent knowing? That point has always confused me.

Who has enough money they don't care about the charges on a CC bill? I know I don't. I get my CC bill, look over every transaction to make sure XYZ subscription service didn't charge me twice etc etc. If I saw "LindenLabs" or any other charge I didn't recognize, I'd be on the phone with my bank after asking around the folks in my household.

Also, if I'd ever tried a stunt like that and been caught? Trust me, I grew up in an era I'd have only ever done it once. < old

As a former teacher who had a lot of 12 year olds in his classroom over the years too (me wave @Blush Bravin:
There are  parents who worship their kids with no limits.
"Hear no evil, see no evil, please don't talk no evil about them mister teacher".
They will turn a blind eye if they see payments from the kids for Internet games and small purchases.
And what Blush said a few posts back.

Edited March 23 by Sid Nagy

[Katherine Heartsong]

49 minutes ago, Modulated said:

It's a multilayer thing, yes your bank may not do that directly, but the card the bank issues is by a major provider/processor, i.e. visa and the like, they can share your informaton and do and you agree to such when you get their cards and use their services.

Oh, they sure do. Worked in one of Canada's major five banks.

VISA and Mastercard are more than happy to sell along your data to the point that unless you're using a system that completely anonymizes the transaction, the banks will know about everything you purchased, what you purchased, from who, when, how much etc. The credit bureaus buy that info, so do the major data brokers, and even Meta a few years ago entered into agreements with the CC issuers to buy that data. Meta was so bold a few years back to even try to offer to buy all your transactional data from several of the major US banks.

The current systems I am most familiar with have transactional data on every single purchase that the 230 MILLION end users (mostly NA based) are making in almost real time. It's how targeted ad and offer campaigns work. Not bought anything in the past five days from your favorite coffee chain and suddenly an offer appears for 10% your next coffee and donut if you spend over $5? That didn't happen by accident, you were targeted because your purchase patterns changed and it was noted in a system somewhere based on past transactional data, and not by the bank.

[Modulated]

37 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

I understand Sirhc completely

Generally speaking:  A big chunk of Americans (the Fahrenheit users) often don't know much about how the rest of the world functions.  USA and Europa are not 1 on 1 compatible.
In general the rest of the world knows more about the USA than the other way around. That has to do with the USA being a very important country politically and being pretty dominant in the film and TV industry. We over here all know or have heard about the TV series CSI. I don't think all Americans will know Tatort. Just to give an example.
 

Not even measuring temperatures is the same.

Everybody on these parts of the forums communicates in English, but we can have very different backgrounds, traditions, communication styles, values, norms and laws to abide in our home countries.

Some of us aren't as uninformed as you'd like to think. The U.S. is pretty important in many many many other major things too, but it's funny you chose to focus on the ones you did. And that's ok. It is what it is.

Edited March 23 by Modulated

[Sid Nagy]

6 minutes ago, Modulated said:

Some of us aren't as uninformed as you'd like to think. The U.S. is pretty important in many many many other major things too, but it's funny you chose to focus on the ones you did. And that's ok. It is what it is.

I already even know what color you normally vote if you vote, but since politics are not allowed on these forums, let's not go there.

 

[Modulated]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

I already even know what color you normally vote if you vote, but since politics are not allowed on these forums, let's not go there.

 

You know what they say about assumptions......I never figured you for the anti-American sentiment type, it's surprising honestly.

Edited March 23 by Modulated

[Sid Nagy]

Just now, Modulated said:

You know what they say about assumptions......

That is what I was trying to fight in this thread with almost all posts I made.

[Ceka Cianci]

No because you don't need payment information to start a second life account.

[Modulated]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

That is what I was trying to fight in this thread with almost all posts I made.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Quote

It’s possible to get a first credit card at a young age by becoming an authorized user on a parent’s account, but the legal age to apply for your own credit card is 18. 18- to 20-year-olds must apply with a co-signer (which not all banks allow) or with proof of income. Applicants over the age of 21 can apply for a card on their own without any help.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/credit-cards/how-old-do-you-have-to-be-to-get-a-credit-card/#:~:text=Learn More-,Bottom Line,or with proof of income.

Kids can have their own checking account and debit card with parental guidance.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/banking/best-debit-cards-kids-teens/

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Modulated said:

Like i said previously, verification and payments work in parallel, anytime you make a transaction with an account, the information is tied directly to the details given when the account was created. This is *any* transaction, the bank knows, the card provider knows, e-verify and other verification services. Verification absolutely works .

Not sure you're getting my point.  Everything UP UNTIL SL is verifiable for those entities.  My question is, does LL have access to that verified info.  Since all they ask is name, address, etc when entering payment info, do they then check the age of the person through that payment method to ensure the user is 18?  The CC or bank doesn't know that someone using that card is trying to use it on an +18 website since technically, you can be 17 and have an SL account.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Modulated said:

I don't know where you are in the world, but due to strict laws, any kind of bank card you have in the U.S. you must provide a social security number when opening the account, all of that is verified- so when you purchase in SL with said card they know who the card belongs to and if the person is an adult or not pretty much.  This is precisely why they probably don't allow prepaid gift cards and things similar for payment options. You must use some sort of verified payment .The banking system and verification measures all work in parallel.

LL stopped accepting gift cards when someone forgot to include them when they changed processing provider years ago. I know this because I was one of the people affected by it. I almost lost my land because of it. There was no notice that gift cards were no longer going to be accepted. Trying to get help from Lee Linden was a joke; he hung up on me, twice. Fortunately, there was someone who did help otherwise I would have left SL at that point. I couldn't afford a checking account at the time thanks to all the exorbitant fees banks like to charge.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Is PIOF essentially a form of "Age Verification"?

I think it's more of a 'serious SL account'  versus 'anonymous troll acount'  verification thing.

Btw, age verification is a complete joke, to keep a bunch of not so tech savvy lawmaker dinosaurs happy.

"You must be 18 to enter this website." .... "OK".... *click*