Mainland Land Rights and Neighbors

[WaitsThomasBatriani]

13 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

I've got the bulk of my region at this point, I've built an airfield/wharf with open rez and long auto return. With new neighbors, step one is to reach out. I offer to work with any build they might have in mind.

Step two, if they put up annoying stuff and it's encroaching, return it.

Step three, derender as necessary.

I've never had any issues.

If you can afford to buy everything around you, that's the best solution of all. I bought a lottery ticket today and I feel REALLY good about this one.

[InnerCity Elf]

On 2/17/2024 at 1:25 AM, PheebyKatz said:

Just put a wall up of your own that obscures their wall, and has a picture of a friendly neighbor with a nice house on it. Maybe they'll see it.

And some testimonies of real estate buyers, saying they'd never buy or rent from someone who puts up big ugly walls. Dear real estate people, maybe consider friendly neighborhooding as a sales tactic if not a naturalness.

[InnerCity Elf]

On 2/18/2024 at 12:35 AM, Ceka Cianci said:

I think  just going about your day and doing your thing ,is more of a deterrent than anything.. They obviously want to cause grief..

As some say, the best revenge is living well..

hehehe

In that case, sending a friendly "Hi, I'm your new neighbour, just wanted to say hello and let you know that I really love that wall you put up, you have excellent taste" message might do the trick. A bit risky, though, instead of taking down the wall to cause grief of loss, they might dig for the most hideous texture they can find. 😅

[Qie Niangao]

How hard could it be to give landowners the ability to de-render specific content outside their parcel for the default view of all visitors to their parcel, rather than each viewer having to specify the de-render list individually?

Applying that parcel-specific view could hardly be worse than the massive effects EEP imposes every time we cross parcel borders—which is gated to a  minimum of 128 m² parcels, so this could be too, or make it a 512 or 1024 m² gate, or even larger if it's really a concern.

It's not only that this would give Mainland more value to its owners by letting them block off ugly walls, but it would also reduce the number of those ugly walls, made unnecessary when whatever they were trying to hide could instead be hidden on command, no prims required.

This came up ages ago and as I recall it was rejected because Philip thought it would break continuity of the Mainland experience, with objects vanishing and reappearing as residents crossed parcel borders. As if huge walls contribute to continuity. 🙄 (To be honest, Philip had many bad takes, including portal-phobia and the bizarre notion that nature abhors a hierarchy.)

[Zalificent Corvinus]

9 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

How hard could it be to give landowners the ability to de-render specific content outside their parcel for the default view of all visitors to their parcel, rather than each viewer having to specify the de-render list individually?

Considering the failure of the Official Fail-Viewer to incorporate the ability to derender ANYTHING at all, ever, the answer is probably "too hard for LL".

10 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

To be honest, Philip had many bad takes, including portal-phobia and the bizarre notion that nature abhors a hierarchy

And the idea that we'd all be spending our SL day in B2B Executive Power Meetings, and filling in between meetings by listening to Jazz in Art Galleries.

 

[Sid Nagy]

3 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Considering the failure of the Official Fail-Viewer to incorporate the ability to derender ANYTHING at all, ever, the answer is probably "too hard for LL"

I understand completely why they don't incorporate that in their pretty good viewer.
They try to keep things a bit realistic. If one decides to live on dumpster land, one has to be willing to see the dumpster. 

Edited February 20 by Sid Nagy

[Persephone Emerald]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

How hard could it be to give landowners the ability to de-render specific content outside their parcel for the default view of all visitors to their parcel, rather than each viewer having to specify the de-render list individually?

Applying that parcel-specific view could hardly be worse than the massive effects EEP imposes every time we cross parcel borders—which is gated to a  minimum of 128 m² parcels, so this could be too, or make it a 512 or 1024 m² gate, or even larger if it's really a concern.

It's not only that this would give Mainland more value to its owners by letting them block off ugly walls, but it would also reduce the number of those ugly walls, made unnecessary when whatever they were trying to hide could instead be hidden on command, no prims required.

This came up ages ago and as I recall it was rejected because Philip thought it would break continuity of the Mainland experience, with objects vanishing and reappearing as residents crossed parcel borders. As if huge walls contribute to continuity. 🙄 (To be honest, Philip had many bad takes, including portal-phobia and the bizarre notion that nature abhors a hierarchy.)

Derendering is only in the user's viewer. It only affects what the user sees, not what anyone else sees. It would be simple enough for LL to add this option to the SL viewer, since TPVs already have it, and it wouldn't break user immersion any more than being able to control our environment settings does. I have no idea why LL hasn't implemented this option already. Is there really anyone who doesn't want to be able to derender objects inworld? Are there people at the lab who fear newbies will derender houses to peep inside at their neighbors, rather than just camming through their walls?

At first I thought giving the ability to parcel owners to set as part of their default environment was a bad idea, but it can't be harder on the system than having the environment settings change all the time. Rendering fewer textures could even help a user with poor graphics rendering abilities. For instance, if one has a neighbor whose objects appear grey because they're too hard to render or they have horrible glowing, full-bright pink trees or particle spewers, just derender and the problem is solved. Want a sea view? Just derender everything on your neighbor's parcel.

Edited February 20 by Persephone Emerald

[Sid Nagy]

But, but, but..... one of the main features of mainland is the right to bully others away, isn't it?
Having no covenant is sooooooo precious, priceless, the reason that SL appeals.

See the banline discussions. What is the use of mainland if one can't annoy neighbors away, to get that extra snippet of land that one needs to finally expand?

It is a feature, not a pain.

Yes, sarcastic mode is still on.

Edited February 20 by Sid Nagy

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Having no covenant is sooooooo precious, priceles

 

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Derendering is only in the user's viewer. It only affects what the user sees, not what anyone else sees.

Right, but so was altitude-specific Windlight until it wasn't: Firestorm (I think; some TPV anyway) started using parcel descriptions to define Windlights for different altitudes… and eventually the Lab built it into parcel properties that could be efficiently and uniformly shared by all viewers. (Granted, the history of EEP had its "troubles", but not because per-parcel viewer tweaking was so difficult.)

This could work the same way, except it could need more per-parcel information than a TPV could smuggle into spare data fields without the Lab getting involved. Probably on average less than a unique EEP at each altitude, though.

42 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

It is a feature, not a pain.

You should have seen the first draft of my post—not that I've completely ruled out a secret conspiracy of land-selling Lindens and their useful idiot viral wall-builders.

Edited February 20 by Qie Niangao
"… could need *more* per-parcel information…"

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

LL has been pretty careful over the years to make sure we each have control over what we see.  This idea would allow me to control what YOU see.  Do you really want that?

Yes, derender should be available in the official viewer 

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Yes, derender should be available in the official viewer 

Hmm...since "derender" isn't an option in the "official viewer", I assume "what you choose to derender" is not stored in a database.

Do you lose what you choose to derender every time you "clear cache" in Firestorm (or "wipe and reinstall" it)?

ETA: OMG I almost clicked "Submit" before seeing that I almost wrote, "loose" instead of "lose".  What a looser!!

[Gabriele Graves]

I don't like the idea of the land owner of the parcel controlling what someone can see outside of their parcel.  In my opinion, this goes too far.  What is outside of their parcel is not their concern, only what is on their parcel.

If there was such a feature, I would expect that there would have to be a client override available for anyone on the parcel.
 

[Persephone Emerald]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

You should have seen the first draft of my post—not that I've completely ruled out a secret conspiracy of land-selling Lindens and their useful idiot viral wall-builders.

I don't think SL needs more useful idiots.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Persephone Emerald said:

I don't think SL needs more useful idiots.

SL DOES need an endless stream of "users" (be they "idiots" or not)!!

 

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If there was such a feature, I would expect that there would have to be a client override available for anyone on the parcel.

Oh certainly, the same way EEP has "Use Shared Environment" and all the personal Environment options. The parcel derendering list would just be the "Shared" view of the parcel surroundings, but anyone could travel everywhere and see all the walls and floating skyboxes from every parcel, regardless of what the landowner suggests. But again, if a landowner didn't need to put up the walls to fix the view from their parcel, there'd be a lot fewer walls to derender.

[Gabriele Graves]

32 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh certainly, the same way EEP has "Use Shared Environment" and all the personal Environment options. The parcel derendering list would just be the "Shared" view of the parcel surroundings, but anyone could travel everywhere and see all the walls and floating skyboxes from every parcel, regardless of what the landowner suggests. But again, if a landowner didn't need to put up the walls to fix the view from their parcel, there'd be a lot fewer walls to derender.

Theoretically, going down this train of thought, virtual private spaces (VPS) would be a better technical option in my opinion.  No de-rendering would be required.

The parcel, it's settings and contents effectively disappears from "normal space" and is surrounded by a void space from the viewpoint of someone on the parcel.  Going in and out would be teleport only like a private region and anyone crossing through the space it would normally occupy are just shown standard LL public space land settings with blank terrain and no restrictions, so no hint it is a VPS or private parcel.  The only dots on the mini map would be avatars crossing through the public space.

No parcels would share a VPS, you would have to join them or perhaps only all parcels owned by the same account/group on that region would share a VPS.  In some ways, this would be similar in concept to the setting "Avatars on other parcels can see and chat with avatars on this parcel" in that the effect is both ways.  In fact that option would potentially no longer be necessary with VPS.

Of course, I think the introduction of VPS could be disastrous for a densely populated land mass as many people would end up using them, however if we no longer care about that...

LL also would probably never go for it because it would potentially cannibalise private region sales *unless* it was also a paid option, perhaps even a new subscription level, Privacy Plus.

It does have the potential to solve the blight issue though but by swapping it for vast swathes of empty land.  However that might not be much of an issue in areas with a significant public infrastructure.

Take your medicine/poison, enjoy the ride.
 

Edited February 20 by Gabriele Graves
Striving for eventual correctness

[Rat Luv]

17 hours ago, WaitsThomasBatriani said:

 I bought a lottery ticket today and I feel REALLY good about this one.

And then...we never heard from @WaitsThomasBatriani again 🤑

I bought 2 Set For Life tickets yesterday and neither won 

[Gabriele Graves]

3 minutes ago, Rat Luv said:

And then...we never heard from @WaitsThomasBatriani again 🤑

I bought 2 Set For Life tickets yesterday and neither won 

Wanted to laugh at the first sentence and sad face the second.  Talk about conflicted!

[Katherine Heartsong]

17 hours ago, WaitsThomasBatriani said:

If you can afford to buy everything around you, that's the best solution of all. I bought a lottery ticket today and I feel REALLY good about this one.

I swear if I ever did stumble into a lottery win, I'd tier up to own one 30,000 sim surrounded by empty eight water homesteads. That's 70,000 prims on one living sim. Just imagine.

[Qie Niangao]

Hmm. I suppose some folks who put up walls would stop doing that if they could instead define their parcel to be a Virtual Private Space and that might help some, but otherwise it's really not what I wanted to achieve with parcel-level derendering.

As I understand VPS, it seems like a parcel-scale void-surrounded private island, and I guess I can see some Mainlanders would want that, but my objective was to improve the existing, expansive Mainland experience by offering visitors a somewhat curated view, removing the worst eyesores, the way individuals use derender in their viewers for specific problematic content. 

Of course maintaining parcel derendering lists could be a burden for large-scale landholdings, but so is everything else about owning a bunch of Mainland.

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Qie Niangao said:

Hmm. I suppose some folks who put up walls would stop doing that if they could instead define their parcel to be a Virtual Private Space and that might help some, but otherwise it's really not what I wanted to achieve with parcel-level derendering.

As I understand VPS, it seems like a parcel-scale void-surrounded private island, and I guess I can see some Mainlanders would want that, but my objective was to improve the existing, expansive Mainland experience by offering visitors a somewhat curated view, removing the worst eyesores, the way individuals use derender in their viewers for specific problematic content. 

Of course maintaining parcel derendering lists could be a burden for large-scale landholdings, but so is everything else about owning a bunch of Mainland.

Sure, I understood what you were angling for but if we are spitballing for solutions to controlling the view/blight, that isn't the one I would vote for.  I don't mean any offense by that.

[Rat Luv]

.

Edited February 20 by Rat Luv

[Clem Marques]

On 2/18/2024 at 4:17 PM, gwynchisholm said:

When searching for land not that long ago I found the solution was just to set up shop close to a linden owned area, namely an infohub. And everything around me looks nice and fitting because a core build in the area is an infohub, so everyone around it makes fairly open stuff because it’s free traffic.

Roadside parcels are also good. A bit more expensive than landlocked parcels, but at least one side of your parcel will protected from any potentially crazy neighbors, ensuring that you won't be completely blocked out of the world by big privacy screens or cubes.

The best option for someone who is worried about having a nice view while on Mainland is to get a sim edge parcel. They are on the pricier side, for sure, but worth it. You will always have the view of the endless ocean in the "void" area, and no neighbors there to ruin things. They tend to be cheaper than seaside or lakeside, protected sailing parcels, but visually they are the same.

Infohubs are a good option, visually, due to the vast amount of protected land around them, but my experience on that matter is that they tend to be expensive for land buyers, because the constant influx of avatars there hikes up the price ("marketing" is valuable) Those parcels are better for people who want to build public areas, stores, or those who want to advertise things. If you want to just have a nice private home, that might not be the best option because people might just wander in at any moment.

I would only recommend an infohub-adjacent parcel if its on a separate region. If the infohub and the parcel are within the same region, you will be unable to access your land when region restarts happen, because all of the avatars who try to log into the surrounding regions get sent to that infohub, often taking up the 42 avatar limit and filling up the region for a long time. I made the mistake of living next to an infohub once and deeply regretted it for this reason. So buyer beware.

If all else fails, there is always the cheapest and best option to be completely immune to the antics of crazy neighbors: Skyboxes. No need for any expensive parcels since what's on the ground won't matter. Buy a really cheap one from the auctions (0.5L$/m2) or find abandoned land and submit a support ticket (1L$/m2), put your skybox high up in the sky, and there you go. You are untouchable and no neighbors will ever bother you up there. If they do, they are crossing parcel boundaries, and you can return their items.

That being said, I personally love the chaos of Mainland and embrace it. It's part of the fun, the utter freedom for people to do as they please, for better or for worse. However, I understand why it can be an extremely unpleasant experience for some, especially when neighbors have terrible taste or are particularly rude.

[Clem Marques]

On 2/19/2024 at 10:53 AM, Sid Nagy said:

I think a percentage of people feels guilty or not totally at ease with the way they live their Second Life and want to tuck it away as far as possible for the rest of the world.

Some people just love privacy, and are just trying to get as much of it as possible without having to buy a private region. But what you said is also possible. Some things are better off out of sight