arton Rotaru Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said: Compliant? My understanding is that the level of PBR they are bringing in so far is outdated and doesn't include features in the new standards, so compliancy is not something even the Lab is adhering to. And that is just plain wrong again! There is nothing much more to say about that actually, other than that your expression is just plain wrong! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said: 13 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: other then some who are here for tourism and scenes, the majority are more concerned about how they look then the backdrops. THIS^^^ NOPE Where the two of you go, your experience, does not represent most of SL. Do I have to now post the parable of the elephant? lol 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: So far PBR is little more than theory and other than the posted videos of what can be done with it, little is seen of how it will make our virtual lives better. This is one for the artist in us all (PBR). Perhaps you should spend some time developing the artist in you? Edited January 4 by Luna Bliss 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Yatsenko Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 16 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: No, it isn't. Like back when mesh became a thing, the advantages of it became so evident that myself and others became motivated enough to upgrade our hardware in spite of the initial misgivings when it was little more then theory. So far PBR is little more than theory and other than the posted videos of what can be done with it, little is seen of how it will make our virtual lives better. Yeah, PBR isn't a huge upgrade. Specially considering the best parts of PBR are the new lighting and reflection probes, things we probably could have gotten without changing to GLTF. GLTF is mostly about getting content creators to make things the right way. When more people use PBR and they start getting things that look like Vaseline when they shouldn't be shiny at all people are going to realize how many times content creators messed up Blinn-Phong. Which is gonna make a lot of people mad because a new feature is breaking existing content. But LL can't do much to work around content creators doing things wrong. Sculpties had a ton of drawbacks and the change was huge. PBR, GLTF, and the new lighting isn't nearly as groundbreaking. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: This one for the artist in us all (PBR). Perhaps you should spend some time developing the artist in you? I'm not big on shiny metal and glass so like I say, until the PBR is used on organics and clothing, I'm not likely to appreciate the artistry of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) All the mesh clothes, accessories, jewelry, shoes, you name it, that goes onto the avatar will be PBR materials anyways. The fashionistas will be more over this than anybody else. Edited January 4 by arton Rotaru 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said: I'm not big on shiny metal and glass so like I say, until the PBR is used on organics and clothing, I'm not likely to appreciate the artistry of it. It's more than metal and glass. Reflections on water. Reflections in moonlight environments. It's quite amazing, especially when you love nature. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 10 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Yah those initial reports certainly didn't help with only some pictures and videos of shiny glass and metal to promote the advantages. I would suspect it will only become popular once they can put PBR on body and clothing because other then some who are here for tourism and scenes, the majority are more concerned about how they look then the backdrops. Well, I mean besides most people not knowing about it the next thing people got out of it was “YAY! Mirrors!” When in reality all it is, is an improved rendering system. The truth is, the mirror thing is a novelty, that most people will play around with for about 10 minutes. I played with it for about 10 mins on the test grid and was over it. It’s not like you need it to dress your avatar, maybe for pictures? Clothing can be PBR right now! There’s going to be some wait time for creators to make real attempts at it. The skin and body thing I agree with. It would’ve been nice to have with this roll out. However, what I do know is subsurface scattering (the element that makes a rendered skin look more realistic) is more expensive to render. That could be why they left it out. The good thing about all of this is, the door is open for it to be added later! This opens the door for a lot of good things. It might not be a sexy improvement right now, but it has the potential to lead to some! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) I would have preferred a ”Why I don't consider PBR ready” subject for this thread... Because, you know, the fact you do not like it is due to how unpolished (pun intended) it is right now, with ugly rendering issues for legacy contents (or vanished shadows, or glitchy/ugly (sky blue !) water surfaces, etc) and glitchy and incomplete UI for editing PBR stuff in the viewer. It is indeed, at best, at ”beta” quality and should never have been pushed to release by LL before all those nasty issues are solved. Sadly, what is done is done, and we will now see PBR contents starting to be sold by creators, with prerequisites (such as custom environment settings) that will make that contents incompatible with future fixes (e.g. a ”fixed” EE setting to stop shiny surfaces to appear blue will become a handicap after LL will finally fix that bogus blue shine that also ruins shiny legacy contents anyway). However, PBR, in itself, is a good thing for the future of SL. It is simply just as disruptive as Windlight has been when it got introduced (excepted that Windlight did not ruin the rendering of legacy contents), especially the PC power required to render it... Yet, would you consider, today, that Windlight was an error and has ruined SL ?... I doubt so ! Edited January 4 by Henri Beauchamp 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said: I would have preferred a ”Why I don't consider PBR ready” subject for this thread... We only have the cognition of a 4-year-old so much of the time on this forum. Everything must be simplified into good or bad. Totally frustrating. No detail. No depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Yatsenko Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Well, I will say this. With ALM and Blinn-Phong there was a very big difference between baked and in world material builds. I'm working on a build right now, fully baked legacy version and a PBR version with the new features. And honestly the PBR version looks pretty great when the lighting is all done, something I couldn't get with ALM. PBR lets you make much better interior spaces (skyboxes, for example) with much better lighting. I think building in world is going to shift. Materials aren't going to be that important anymore and lighting and reflection probes are going to be the new way to get builds to look the best. When you build, once you figure out the new lighting system you are going to have a lot more options for changing the appearance of things with just lighting. Hopefully LL sees this through because the foundation they are laying can make something really amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 20 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: We only have the cognition of a 4-year-old so much of the time on this forum. Everything must be simplified into good or bad. Totally frustrating. No detail. No depth. I see that as a failure to recognize we have different talents and areas of expertise. You see the benefit of PBR whereas I see the benefit of a better inventory UI and shopping workflow. Different strokes for different folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: I see that as a failure to recognize we have different talents and areas of expertise. You see the benefit of PBR whereas I see the benefit of a better inventory UI and shopping workflow. Different strokes for different folks. The problem is when people who "don't see a benefit" think that's a problem instead of considering that can be a benefit for other people. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 39 minutes ago, Flea Yatsenko said: Well, I will say this. With ALM and Blinn-Phong there was a very big difference between baked and in world material builds. I'm working on a build right now, fully baked legacy version and a PBR version with the new features. And honestly the PBR version looks pretty great when the lighting is all done, something I couldn't get with ALM. PBR lets you make much better interior spaces (skyboxes, for example) with much better lighting. I think building in world is going to shift. Materials aren't going to be that important anymore and lighting and reflection probes are going to be the new way to get builds to look the best. When you build, once you figure out the new lighting system you are going to have a lot more options for changing the appearance of things with just lighting. Hopefully LL sees this through because the foundation they are laying can make something really amazing. It’s kind of funny. There’s a recent thread about stores that are white-out white. PBR will help eliminate issues with that. It’s one of those QoL things people don’t think about except as a peeve that will be gone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Janet Voxel said: Well, I mean besides most people not knowing about it the next thing people got out of it was “YAY! Mirrors!” When in reality all it is, is an improved rendering system. The truth is, the mirror thing is a novelty, that most people will play around with for about 10 minutes. I played with it for about 10 mins on the test grid and was over it. It’s not like you need it to dress your avatar, maybe for pictures? I'm not going to disagree about the novelty part of mirrors and I certainly agree that it's not like we need to stare at our avatar's reflections to get dressed or anything. I have enjoyed playing with reflection probes though. That said, I think that as our avatars moves through a scene such as rooms in a house, any actual mesh depictions of mirrors that in RL would normally pick up our partial reflection incidentally as we move past them us would and does greatly enhance the dynamism of SL. The current mesh "mirrors" that people sell are pretty boring with those baked non-reflective surfaces. So I think there is definitely a place for reflections even if not actual planar mirrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said: The problem is when people who "don't see a benefit" think that's a problem instead of considering that can be a benefit for other people. And it was a problem as has been pointed out in the thread by multiple people. It seems somewhat resolved for some of us so all good but it took time and there was no guarantee initially that it would. It actually begs the question as Henri has already pointed out why the Lab released it when it had such a negative effect on so many people initially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 32 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: It actually begs the question as Henri has already pointed out why the Lab released it when it had such a negative effect on so many people initially. Well the test grid wasn’t exactly flooded with people testing out PBR, in my experience. I’m sure there weren’t that many people actually testing it out. Someone also pointed out, there probably was a bonus involved in getting it in a releasable state and released before 2024. I think the latter is the most likely what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said: And it was a problem as has been pointed out in the thread by multiple people. It seems somewhat resolved for some of us so all good but it took time and there was no guarantee initially that it would. It actually begs the question as Henri has already pointed out why the Lab released it when it had such a negative effect on so many people initially. As far as I can tell, the project as released hasn't changed a bit since this thread started. This suggests that if "problems" and "negative effects" were "resolved," they weren't coming from the project in the first place. Edited January 4 by Theresa Tennyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 19 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: As far as I can tell, the project as released hasn't changed a bit since this thread started. This suggests that if "problems" and "negative effects" were "resolved," they weren't coming from the project in the first place. No, but a new version of the alpha Firestorm PBR viewer has been released in that time, and it is much better in terms of performance than the previous one. The project may not have changed, but the implementation in-viewer has, and should continue to do so, if only to improve FPS and performance, and fix the awkward or broken bits (such as how PBR materials scale when you resize an object, or how to apply both BP and PBR textures to an object). That said, I did just now crash trying to take a pic using it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 15 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: That said, I did just now crash trying to take a pic using it. Firestorm Alpha that was I guess. Well it's considered still Alpha. The development, bugfixing etc. will indeed continue. However, it's holidays time. So there hasn't been done anything regarding PBR the past 2 weeks. And from someone who has followed the development from the beginning, those people really deserve a break. Edited January 5 by arton Rotaru 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 20 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: That said, I did just now crash trying to take a pic using it I did as well, today. 😥 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Just now, arton Rotaru said: Firestorm Alpha that was I guess. Well it's considred still Alpha. The development, bugfixing etc. will indeed continue. However, it's holydays time. So there hasn't been done anything regarding PBR the past 2 weeks. And from someone who has followed the devlopment from the beginning, those people really deserve a break. It was, and the version release a week ago is unquestionably an improvement. I am still expecting to see some degradation of performance over the pre-PBR viewer, at least short term. It's somewhat inevitable that new tech is going to be more demanding. But I'm very definitely encouraged by the performance I've seen in the three PBR viewers I've used. I think it's a very good thing that FS is taking time over this. I am in no rush: they need to get this right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said: It was, and the version release a week ago is unquestionably an improvement. I am still expecting to see some degradation of performance over the pre-PBR viewer, at least short term. It's somewhat inevitable that new tech is going to be more demanding. But I'm very definitely encouraged by the performance I've seen in the three PBR viewers I've used. I think it's a very good thing that FS is taking time over this. I am in no rush: they need to get this right. Believe it or not, I never crashed with the official PBR viewer in the past 18 month. There has been done a lot to improve the performance compared to the v6 viewer. So it's not necessarily a given that performance will be worse. It can be even better for a lot of configurations. Firestorm Devs (the few that are left) also cook only with water. They may well be struggeling to get their act together in a timely fashion rather than "doing everything right", which implies that the Lab would be doing everything wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conifer Dada Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, Janet Voxel said: Well the test grid wasn’t exactly flooded with people testing out PBR, in my experience. I’m sure there weren’t that many people actually testing it out. Someone also pointed out, there probably was a bonus involved in getting it in a releasable state and released before 2024. I think the latter is the most likely what happened. I tried out PBR on the Beta Grid and didn't have any of the problems I've had with it on the main grid. But - on the Beta Grid I wasn't in music club with 8 people in it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conifer Dada Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said: As far as I can tell, the project as released hasn't changed a bit since this thread started. This suggests that if "problems" and "negative effects" were "resolved," they weren't coming from the project in the first place. The problems of very slow rezzing of environment and non-rezzing of avatars in any place where there are more than half a dozen started (or got much worse) with the PBR viewer. Even setting graphics to minimum makes little or no difference. This has persisted since the PBR viewer was released for the main grid. I think there has been one update since the introduction, which made no difference to the poor performance. I tried third party viewers, which restored performance to 'good' until I started getting 'failed to find xxxx in inventory' messages. So now I'm back with the PBR viewer, unable to go anywhere that there might be more than a couple of other people. I haven't had a crashing problem with the PBR viewer though. It would be interesting and useful for someone to create an alt to go through the new user experience using the current viewer and report back. I might even try that myself if things don't improve in the next week or two. Edited January 4 by Conifer Dada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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