PBR WOW!

[Arielle Popstar]

19 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

A few days ago I lamented about how I often have to derender many parts of a build at shopping events because oftentimes the extra deco makes shopping more difficult. I landed at Fameshed a few minutes ago .. and WOW. Not only is this new PBR build beautiful but it's so clean and all the vendors rezzed almost instantly even though there were a couple dozen avies here shopping.

This build is stunningly beautiful and makes shopping such a pleasure!

Agreed it was nice though quite a hit on the FPS and certainly made my fans spin up. After I finished admiring it though I can't say it had much affect on me while I was camming what was for sale and didn't prompt me to buy anything I wouldn't have bought had it been displayed in a bare field. It is after all simply background which is what I see as the issue with PBR. 

Did you buy more because of the build itself?

[Blush Bravin]

36 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Agreed it was nice though quite a hit on the FPS and certainly made my fans spin up. After I finished admiring it though I can't say it had much affect on me while I was camming what was for sale and didn't prompt me to buy anything I wouldn't have bought had it been displayed in a bare field. It is after all simply background which is what I see as the issue with PBR. 

Did you buy more because of the build itself?

I actually spent more time looking at the vendors. I typically would have simply gone straight to the vendors of the merchants that interested me on the Seraphim site. This time I lingered because I was enjoying the surroundings. Also, things just rezzed in so much more quickly for me that I was kind of shocked, pleasantly shocked. I did pick up a couple of extra demos that I wouldn't have had I followed my typical land, move just off of the landing point, turn on select only friends, and then zoom to the vendors I'd previously chosen behavior. I've not actually gone back to make my purchases yet. I always take demos home and demo very carefully there before making final selections.

So the short answer is yes, in a way, because I picked up a couple of extra demos that I would not have had I not been admiring the build.

[Blush Bravin]

2 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

That's actually less shiny and more muted than what's at the event. If the curtains looked like that, I wouldn't have mentioned them at all. 

Whether the PVC/plastic effect I'm seeing is due to reflection probes or lighting or EEP or cute little gremlins in my viewer, I don't know. I just know they look wayyyy too glossy.

If SL turns into a shine fest, which seems to be the current trend, I really can't see myself wanting to return to it (I'm on a bit of a break these days). The Firestorm PBR viewer runs totally fine for me and I'm not having technical problems, but from an aesthetics point of view, I'm just not feeling the environments.

I did change my windlight to the shared experience as suggested by the pop up message I received upon arriving and being notified that the build had changed to a PBR only build. I'm wondering if that's why the fabric to me looks the same as the picture I posted of the bridal satin. Or maybe my settings are different. I don't know. But I so hoped with PBR we could finally all be seeing the same thing. Guess hope springs eternal, at least for me.  

[Ayashe Ninetails]

12 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I did change my windlight to the shared experience as suggested by the pop up message I received upon arriving and being notified that the build had changed to a PBR only build. I'm wondering if that's why the fabric to me looks the same as the picture I posted of the bridal satin. Or maybe my settings are different. I don't know. But I so hoped with PBR we could finally all be seeing the same thing. Guess hope springs eternal, at least for me.  

Yep, same. I mentioned confirming I was on the Shared Environment in my test post:

 

4 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Once things finally looked alright, I confirmed I was on the Shared Environment EEP and zoomed around. More glossy things than I previously thought - the wood display signs, the walls, the floor, the gold in the ceiling, the white in the ceiling, the displays themselves. Just shine on shine on shine. 

 

Settings may be different (I'm set to High with no shadows and no mirrors), but what I was seeing in my viewer looked about on par with your photos. Very department store-bright and very glossy.

I'm hoping the "new shiny" (pun intended) eventually wears off and builders start experimenting with a wider variety of textures and effects. That'd be really cool to see. Something like what Red Dead Redemption 2 managed to do with their interiors and exterior environments. Maybe one day.

[Blush Bravin]

2 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yep, same. I mentioned confirming I was on the Shared Environment in my test post:

 

 

Settings may be different (I'm set to High with no shadows and no mirrors), but what I was seeing in my viewer looked about on par with your photos. Very department store-bright and very glossy.

I'm hoping the "new shiny" (pun intended) eventually wears off and builders start experimenting with a wider variety of textures and effects. That'd be really cool to see. Something like what Red Dead Redemption 2 managed to do with their interiors and exterior environments. Maybe one day.

Mine is set to just one notch below ultra with full shadows enabled. Perhaps the shadows make that much of a difference. 

I'm beginning to feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but for the sake of clarity. I still think, except for the tones of white, these two fabrics appear very similar in regard to amount of shine.

But I am wondering if shadows might make a difference. *shrugs*

Edited August 4 by Blush Bravin

[Nagachief Darkstone]

I recently figured out how to make a real cool semi-transparent screen effect using PBR emissive. The Base Color is a semi-transparent 'pixel mask' the ORM is the ORM from my Smudged Glass material, and then the emissive is the actual image itself. This lets me fade in/out the actual screen image using emissive. Way more simple than trying to layer on multiple layers of alpha.

[Cube Republic]

juniper

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

Mine is set to just one notch below ultra with full shadows enabled. Perhaps the shadows make that much of a difference. 

Shadows might be responsible for the slight difference. Definitely possible, though my viewer experience didn't look too different from your photos at all. I never run with them enabled unless I'm in BD (set for a photography experience with full Ultra and shadows and I haven't yet updated that viewer to PBR). By contrast, Firestorm is set for a fast shopping experience (graphics on High, shadows off).

Really, my main complaint was practically every surface shining - including the curtains, wood signs, floor, ceiling, and walls. Just a little too much glitz for my own liking is all.

[SandorWren]

5 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Shadows might be responsible for the slight difference. Definitely possible, though my viewer experience didn't look too different from your photos at all. I never run with them enabled unless I'm in BD (set for a photography experience with full Ultra and shadows and I haven't yet updated that viewer to PBR). By contrast, Firestorm is set for a fast shopping experience (graphics on High, shadows off).

Really, my main complaint was practically every surface shining - including the curtains, wood signs, floor, ceiling, and walls. Just a little too much glitz for my own liking is all.

I turned shadows off to get a better pic, and my framerate doubled from 40 to 80. It makes sense though.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Two quick (mostly positive) PBR notes.

1) I checked out Fameshed, as everyone else has been doing. I did NOT go on my laptop, which I am sure would have struggled somewhat, nor did I go at a time when it was terribly busy, but I didn't have any issues with lag, even with shadows on. Stuff rezzed relatively quickly. It was, happily, well-lit -- neither washed-out nor too dark. I did think they overdid the shiny on the floor and ceilings (especially the former), but it's going to take some practice, I suppose, before people get PBR "right." And, yes, I thought the decor was a wee bit tacky in a sort of ostentatious way, but that's a matter of taste, and yours may differ.

2) I have been playing with reflection probes off and on for, well, nearly as long as they've been available to play with, but tonight was the first time I used for one an actual pic.

And I have to say, I'm a little impressed. It took a bit of fiddling to get the light the way I wanted it, but that's to be expected: I generally spend a LOT of time on lighting anyway. It gave me exactly what I'd been hoping from the outset that it would give: a way of subtly darkening an interior while still using a relatively bright daylight EEP.

Below is an unedited (other than resized) shot of the interior of my kitchen, with bright light coming through the window.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It took a bit of fiddling to get the light the way I wanted it, but that's to be expected: I generally spend a LOT of time on lighting anyway. It gave me exactly what I'd been hoping from the outset that it would give: a way of subtly darkening an interior while still using a relatively bright daylight EEP.

Honestly if I had to sum up the process of creating anything in or for SL in a single word I doubt I could find one more fitting than "fiddly" but I don't think that's so much an SL problem as it is just the nature of creativity in general.  The more attention you pay to the little details when creating something the better the end result tends to be, creating is a fiddly process and the more particular you are about the result you're trying to achieve the more fiddly it becomes.

There also a correlation between the perceived complexity of a task and the number of tools we're given to perform it.  Making a table or chair is pretty easy when all you have is a saw, a hammer and some nails but when presented with chisels, fret saws and a lathe the process becomes a lot more complicated if you're hoping to take advantage of all the tools available in order to achieve the best possible result.

50 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Below is an unedited (other than resized) shot of the interior of my kitchen, with bright light coming through the window.

It certainly looks like you've gotten the hang of the new SL lighting already, it would be interesting to see some shots of how you set up lighting for your scenes.  Perhaps once more people have become familiar with all the new features some of the regulars in the Art & Photography forum will start posting some behind the scenes pics showing their lighting setups, etc.

[ValKalAstra]

46 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

It certainly looks like you've gotten the hang of the new SL lighting already, it would be interesting to see some shots of how you set up lighting for your scenes.  Perhaps once more people have become familiar with all the new features some of the regulars in the Art & Photography forum will start posting some behind the scenes pics showing their lighting setups, etc.

I would love that too. In fact, I tried getting something going a while back that was basically, hey let's show each other how we work, learn something from it and get to know each other.

However I think the Art and Photography is a bit of an odd place. On one hand it's just about deserted and inactive. On the other hand, guides and tutorials tend to drown out and vanish too. I know orwar wrote several (don't tell him I learned from them :p) and I also posted a lengthy guide on using chroma screen with Second Life but it just vanishes over there.

Buuut. Come on photo people, let's get something going, let's unwrap this and share our findings! Yes including the new probes!

[Marianne Little]

11 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I actually spent more time looking at the vendors. I typically would have simply gone straight to the vendors of the merchants that interested me on the Seraphim site. This time I lingered because I was enjoying the surroundings. Also, things just rezzed in so much more quickly for me that I was kind of shocked, pleasantly shocked. I did pick up a couple of extra demos that I wouldn't have had I followed my typical land, move just off of the landing point, turn on select only friends, and then zoom to the vendors I'd previously chosen behavior. I've not actually gone back to make my purchases yet. I always take demos home and demo very carefully there before making final selections.

So the short answer is yes, in a way, because I picked up a couple of extra demos that I would not have had I not been admiring the build.

Fancy Decor has always made glass, mental and shiny stone really well. And it is a demo on the demo site that show both with PBR and without PBR.

I compared both and think the PBR glass and metal look better. But FD has always nailed down this kind of furniture, so both versions look awesome. I think I go back and buy at least the table and lamps.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

7 hours ago, SandorWren said:

I turned shadows off to get a better pic, and my framerate doubled from 40 to 80. It makes sense though.

Yep. Shadows are generally somewhat "heavy," as I call them. Meaning they can really affect performance. I turn them off in every game I play unless there's a very, very good reason to keep them on. If a game is well-optimized and the environmental design is too incredible to miss, then on they go. If I'm taking a photo in SL, then on they go. If I'm shopping in SL or doing anything else, they're off.

 

5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Below is an unedited (other than resized) shot of the interior of my kitchen, with bright light coming through the window.

That looks great and you nailed the lighting! These are the types of interiors I've been wanting to see (especially once we're fully PBRed out). I'm hoping once PBR eventually takes off, we'll see more homey, sunny kitchens and living rooms. I also hope we get some dim, dusty, forgotten attics. Cozy comfy pubs. Damp, eerie crypts. Dreamy lush piano bars. Castles in ruins...

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Honestly if I had to sum up the process of creating anything in or for SL in a single word I doubt I could find one more fitting than "fiddly" but I don't think that's so much an SL problem as it is just the nature of creativity in general.  The more attention you pay to the little details when creating something the better the end result tends to be, creating is a fiddly process and the more particular you are about the result you're trying to achieve the more fiddly it becomes.

Well, exactly. I am occasionally capable of doing a decent pic that requires only about an hour or so of setup, but some of my pics have been known to take the better part of a week to setup, when you include building the backdrop. For one shot I did last year, I built a good portion of a Regency-era English garden, complete with topiary, statuary, and a small pavilion. Lighting is often the most fiddly part though.

I am friends with one woman who does "opportunity shots" -- i.e., candid photos of people out in the wild. There's no "setup" as such involved in her work, but she'll do countless takes, each of which is "frozen" while she fiddles with the EEP and filters before hitting "Save."

And then of course there's the time spent in Photoshop (or, in my case these days, Affinity).

9 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

There also a correlation between the perceived complexity of a task and the number of tools we're given to perform it.  Making a table or chair is pretty easy when all you have is a saw, a hammer and some nails but when presented with chisels, fret saws and a lathe the process becomes a lot more complicated if you're hoping to take advantage of all the tools available in order to achieve the best possible result.

Very true. Someone introduces a new tool into a viewer, and there's a strong likelihood I'll find a way to use it. (An exception is built-in viewer filters, which I never touch.)

9 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

It certainly looks like you've gotten the hang of the new SL lighting already, it would be interesting to see some shots of how you set up lighting for your scenes.  Perhaps once more people have become familiar with all the new features some of the regulars in the Art & Photography forum will start posting some behind the scenes pics showing their lighting setups, etc.

I've thought of this before -- a thread discussing lighting -- because it is for me often the most important part of the shot. In fact, sometimes it's the reason for the shot: I'll do a pic specifically because I want to capture one particular chiaroscuro effect that I've got in mind.

On average, I'd guess that one of my pics will use between 5 and 8 lighting sources, aside from environmental lighting. I've done a few shots where I've employed upwards of 15.

The interesting thing about this shot, and the impact of the reflection probe, is that I was able to reduce that massively: this image relies mostly on environmental lighting, with only one projector and one point light. To do a shot like this in the past, I'd have had to use a dark EEP (possibly even Phototools NoLight), and then simulated the sunshine pouring in to the darker room with projectors and point lighting. And, because of the reflection probe, I didn't need to do that. The local lights in this scene just "touch up" my figure a bit, slightly illuminating parts of my body not caught in the environmental light.

Edited August 4 by Scylla Rhiadra
Typo

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 hours ago, ValKalAstra said:

I would love that too. In fact, I tried getting something going a while back that was basically, hey let's show each other how we work, learn something from it and get to know each other.

I don't know that I'd even noticed this thread! The Photography subforum is, unfortunately, a bit of a backwater.

 

8 hours ago, ValKalAstra said:

On the other hand, guides and tutorials tend to drown out and vanish too.

Yes, exactly. The threads disappear under the fold, and sometimes the "meat" of a particular thread gets buried behind responses.

Had I the energy, I'd put together a blog to which people could make contributions (beyond just comments, I mean).

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

That looks great and you nailed the lighting! These are the types of interiors I've been wanting to see (especially once we're fully PBRed out). I'm hoping once PBR eventually takes off, we'll see more homey, sunny kitchens and living rooms. I also hope we get some dim, dusty, forgotten attics. Cozy comfy pubs. Damp, eerie crypts. Dreamy lush piano bars. Castles in ruins..

I think "serious" photographers (meaning simply people who aren't just doing quicky screen grabs) will take the time to learn the ins-and-outs of reflection probes (and some of the other important elements introduced by PBR). In fact, I offered some time ago to write a piece on PBR for photography for Focus Magazine, but that publication seems to have gone dormant since February, and I'm not sure what other venue would be appropriate or accessible.

I think too that PBR offers possibilities that extend beyond the taking of the shot. As I think I've said here before, I think it's time that galleries started to acknowledge that they exist in a 3D simulation, and that hanging billboard size photos set out on Full Bright not merely breaks immersion, but also fails to take advantage of the ways in which interior lighting, space, size, and other RL factors can impact upon our experience, and hence the "meaning," of the photos we're displaying. The actual canvases we hang should be using materials.

Edited August 4 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Marianne Little]

I'm thinking about the Fameshed build. It isn't impressive, is it? Very plain, but shiny. I like PBR on certain things, but the rest look just as well or better in Blinn- Phong. I have no idea why all PBR sold is so shiny.

The PBR parts of Fameshed rez quickly, that shall be said.

I got a free PBR testing kit from the Marketplace, https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Free-PBR-demonstration-kit/25469453

and I have already replaced a glass table, and also wine glasses with the PBR basic materials. Awesome reflections in the glass. All things supposed to be shiny look good. But please don't overuse it, creators.

[JeromFranzic]

23 hours ago, Istelathis said:

You might like Akimitsu, which has a bunch of different scenes showcasing PBR from my understanding.

 

Linden's viewer is not showing the reflections of the ground properly (still?) 

 

The above picture is using window's default prtsc, PBR is still buggy, there is flickering on the ground while walking and the reflections are not rendered properly. 

Here the region is in Destinations:

https://secondlife.com/destination/akimitsu

It is pretty big, the spot I am in is here:

Why hello!  I'm enjoying my evil mermaid outfit here

The location I am in, with all of the exhibits:

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Akimitsu/53/160/2683

What settings for PBR did you use? Last time I visited, I had everything cranked up. I used the Megapahit viewer in Linux. 

Edited August 4 by JeromFranzic
speeelllliinneegg

[Amata Karas]

21 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think "serious" photographers (meaning simply people who aren't just doing quicky screen grabs) will take the time to learn the ins-and-outs of reflection probes (and some of the other important elements introduced by PBR). In fact, I offered some time ago to write a piece on PBR for photography for Focus Magazine, but that publication seems to have gone dormant since February, and I'm not sure what other venue would be appropriate or accessible.

I think too that PBR offers possibilities that extend beyond the taking of the shot. As I think I've said here before, I think it's time that galleries started to acknowledge that they exist in a 3D simulation, and that hanging billboard size photos set out on Full Bright not merely breaks immersion, but also fails to take advantage of the ways in which interior lighting, space, size, and other RL factors can impact upon our experience, and hence the "meaning," of the photos we're displaying. The actual canvases we hang should be using materials.

For me it's another tool for improving efficiency of getting to the final image. I think about how much time was devoted to setting up a shot (remember moving individual sculpted pieces of hair or changing the angle of every accessory and attachment to give a more natural looking flow?) or in PhotoShop (remember smoothing out every edge of the system body, adding highlights and dimension not achievable the same way in world?).

I'll take the learning curve and adjustments to enhance performance. I'm not a serious photographer, I haven't blogged or worked on vendor images for a whole lot of years, I just take pics for fun. Thanks to all of the improvements over time, I don't have to bother with PhotoShop. I can get a good enough shot in minutes. If I want to do more, I can, and it's efficient enough that I don't feel I've wasted my time. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Amata Karas said:

For me it's another tool for improving efficiency of getting to the final image. I think about how much time was devoted to setting up a shot (remember moving individual sculpted pieces of hair or changing the angle of every accessory and attachment to give a more natural looking flow?) or in PhotoShop (remember smoothing out every edge of the system body, adding highlights and dimension not achievable the same way in world?).

I'll take the learning curve and adjustments to enhance performance. I'm not a serious photographer, I haven't blogged or worked on vendor images for a whole lot of years, I just take pics for fun. Thanks to all of the improvements over time, I don't have to bother with PhotoShop. I can get a good enough shot in minutes. If I want to do more, I can, and it's efficient enough that I don't feel I've wasted my time. 

Well, your pics genuinely show the care and thought you've put into them, so I'm taking the "not a serious photographer" thing with a grain of salt, because (for me), "serious" has nothing to do with how or where you are displaying them, but is instead about the degree to which you do think about things like composition, lighting, and so forth. When I look at your shots, it doesn't even occur to me to ask if you are "serious" about your photography or not. You clearly are, and the results are there for all to see.*

And, yes, as our in-viewer tools have improved, it's become much less necessary or desirable even to "fiddle" with the pic in post-production. I've taken shots in Black Dragon that I've subsequently opened in Photoshop to edit and then thought to myself "There's absolutely nothing I can or need to do to improve this shot." It's rare, but it happens.

PBR is definitely going to assist with that. Reflection probes, or being able to adjust reflected light from objects (assuming they are mod, of course) are important, but even more profoundly, the new rendering of light means that lighting has a much more dynamic range available (which is, ironically, why the old EEPs are causing problems). These are all good things, and why I was initially excited about the introduction of PBR (and still, to some degree am, with reservations about how it's been implemented).

*Note: I am all too aware that the word "serious" can imply a value judgment, with the implication that there is something more "valuable" or worthwhile about "serious photography." That's not at all what I mean to imply. A simple screen grab can produce an excellent shot, and even if it doesn't, it's no less "valuable" than a pic someone has laboured over. Ironically, I am, in my newest pics, spending a great deal of time editing carefully posed and set up shots with the intention of making them look candid, impromptu, and "unserious."

[Istelathis]

2 hours ago, JeromFranzic said:

What settings for PBR did you use? Last time I visited, I had everything cranked up. I used the Megapahit viewer in Linux. 

I changed them to the recommendations they had posted on the wall, at the time I was using LL's viewer on Windows 11

Unfortunately, I can't quite make it out in the screenshot, and changed them after I left the region so I can't recall offhand. 

Edited August 4 by Istelathis

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

On 8/4/2024 at 7:18 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The interesting thing about this shot, and the impact of the reflection probe, is that I was able to reduce that massively: this image relies mostly on environmental lighting, with only one projector and one point light. To do a shot like this in the past, I'd have had to use a dark EEP (possibly even Phototools NoLight), and then simulated the sunshine pouring in to the darker room with projectors and point lighting. And, because of the reflection probe, I didn't need to do that. The local lights in this scene just "touch up" my figure a bit, slightly illuminating parts of my body not caught in the environmental light.

Yes, as fiddly as probes may be the improvement in the quality of lighting you can achieve with them is quite dramatic (and as you point out, in comparison to how much effort was needed to set up lighting previously, once you're familiar with how they work and how to set them up they make lighting areas a lot simpler and the results a lot more realistic and immersive).

 

On 8/4/2024 at 7:31 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think it's time that galleries started to acknowledge that they exist in a 3D simulation, and that hanging billboard size photos set out on Full Bright not merely breaks immersion, but also fails to take advantage of the ways in which interior lighting, space, size, and other RL factors can impact upon our experience, and hence the "meaning," of the photos we're displaying. The actual canvases we hang should be using materials.

I couldn't agree more!  It's understandable that a lot of builds try to emulate their real world counterparts but I think (especially in the case of things like art galleries) there is a lot of missed opportunity to more fully take advantage of SLs potential.

I have to say I've been very interested in your attempts to use normal maps, etc. to bring more texture and realism to art displays in SL since it's an effect that I've been playing with on and off for a while in various ways.  I originally started by trying to find ways to export the impasto layer from Corel Painter but to date haven't found an easy way to do so.  After seeing your recent posts on the subject I had another look around and found some interesting tutorials for Krita which has some options for impasto, "light brushes", etc. (since Krita is free I'm planning to grab a copy when I have time and experiment with it a little).  I also tried a (very) quick "paintover" in 3D Coat to see if I could add brushstrokes to an existing painting...

 

Thinking about your comment about galleries making more use of SLs potential I was always fascinated by a scene in a movie called "What Dreams May Come" which takes place inside an oil painting.

I've always loved the idea of creating stylized 3D environments that appear "hand painted", complete with objects that use normal mapped brush strokes, etc. in the textures and I think the idea of visiting a gallery in SL that gives you the impression that you're wandering around inside a painting as you explore it would be fantastic.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 hour ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I've always loved the idea of creating stylized 3D environments that appear "hand painted", complete with objects that use normal mapped brush strokes, etc. in the textures and I think the idea of visiting a gallery in SL that gives you the impression that you're wandering around inside a painting as you explore it would be fantastic.

I'm not sure if you've visited, but if not, try Shui Mo gallery (Destination Guide Link). It's made in the style of a Chinese ink brush painting, and it's beautiful to wander around in.

[Starberry Passion]