PBR WOW!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I could accept the FPS hit if I was just twirling around on some new fabulous Linden Reveal thing and sayiing "Oooh, shiny! Ooohhhh Love!"

Right. I don't wander around with my viewer graphics set at Ultra. I probably could, were I willing to accept an FPS of 10 or so, but I'd far rather see smooth movement (and no typing lag) when interacting as I usually do in SL. I use Ultra (or actually, my own customized versions thereof) for pics, and for that only, really. I will occasionally soup it up if I want to be, as you say, wowed by something.

7 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It also makes everything look blurry and ugly. It does NOT make things look crisp and shiny and fabulous like my Mom's glass coffee table before her bridge game, you know, when they put the little wine glasses with the cigarettes in them. This was 1959.

Instead, it looks like an acid trip gone wrong. I have put up pictures before, not today, Satan as it would require me crippling my machine and struggling to put it back "like it was".

This is what does worry me a bit. I've had friends who are overjoyed by the look of PBR . . . but most of them are using essentially gaming computers.

I suspect my own laptop, which is a new and very solid Thinkpad but definitely not a gaming computer, is probably producing something closer to what most people are likely to experience. I really am not in a hurry to try it, as I do worry about what it will do to my graphics for picture taking.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

it looks like an acid trip gone wrong

That sounds like a major selling point. Free flashbacks!

[Prokofy Neva]

9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Right. I don't wander around with my viewer graphics set at Ultra. I probably could, were I willing to accept an FPS of 10 or so, but I'd far rather see smooth movement (and no typing lag) when interacting as I usually do in SL. I use Ultra (or actually, my own customized versions thereof) for pics, and for that only, really. I will occasionally soup it up if I want to be, as you say, wowed by something.

This is what does worry me a bit. I've had friends who are overjoyed by the look of PBR . . . but most of them are using essentially gaming computers.

I suspect my own laptop, which is a new and very solid Thinkpad but definitely not a gaming computer, is probably producing something closer to what most people are likely to experience. I really am not in a hurry to try it, as I do worry about what it will do to my graphics for picture taking.

I guess it's sad that I won't be able to go to that Winter Wonderland and get that octopus boopie (those things are quite ugly until you blow them up whereupon they take up 115 prims but really, just two of them with your treehouse is really all you need to enjoy SL).

I suppose I could burn a graphics foul-up on my daughter's mission-critical work computer...

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In part it's because maybe I'm a bit of a control freak, and I want to manage my settings and my view myself, thank you very much (just one reason I'd make a terrible sub), and in part because I want/need a consistent graphics setup for things like pics.

I installed a copy of FS just after they introduced that Auto-graphics-Fubar system. I thought I had the damn thing turned off, tried upping my graphics to take a pic and "auto-gfx-fubar has noticed your potato pc isn't delivering 60fps, nuking your gfx now", it kept turning my gfx down, so I went in and tried changing the settings, eventually I decided the easiest way to make sure it never messed with my settings was... Don't allow it to run at all.

Then I found an even easier option. Don't use FS.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

I installed a copy of FS just after they introduced that Auto-graphics-Fubar system. I thought I had the damn thing turned off, tried upping my graphics to take a pic and "auto-gfx-fubar has noticed your potato pc isn't delivering 60fps, nuking your gfx now", it kept turning my gfx down, so I went in and tried changing the settings, eventually I decided the easiest way to make sure it never messed with my settings was... Don't allow it to run at all.

Yes, this exactly!

[Qie Niangao]

4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Never, ever EVER click on IMPROVE YOUR GRAPHICS button

 

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I just don't trust the viewer to "automate" something that I know very well how to manage myself.

Are you guys talking about this: ?
I've only just stumbled on this in the new Linden viewer, and just now for the first time let it tweak my settings. Kinda like Scylla, I didn't want to try to figure out what it's done to my settings—and then I remembered we can store graphics settings in handy presets, so I figured I'd give it a whirl. It seemed to calculate for a few seconds, then no discernable difference.

If you hit that "Back" button on the top of the dialog, it reveals a choice of five categories of settings (including Auto-adjust) that might improve viewer speed.

Maybe this has been around a long time and I just never noticed. At least in theory it seems it could be very useful for new users to do something about bad performance—assuming it actually makes settings that improve performance.

 

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

assuming it actually makes settings that improve performance

It improves FPS in a REVOLUTIONARY manner... 

By crapping on all your graphical quality settings, shadows on for a picture, ohho, your FPS is below the minimum standard set by the Politburo, Comrade, NO shadows for you.

Still below the Politburo's guidelines, no ALM for you Comrade.

Still not matching that leet gamer rig performance on your old laptop, you filthy counter revolutionary, lod factor 0.5 lights no, particles no, bump maps no, clouds in the sky, no...

And so on.

To be blunt, if you NEED this, it causes more harm than good, if it doesn't cause more harm than good, you DON'T NEED it. It's a waste of code.

 

Best red-flag warning to avoid this "feature" is that it was originally suggested by Animats, to "up LL's game", and make SL more like a 60fps pvp first person shooter. 

 

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

Folks, 99% of your bad frame rates is because you surround yourselves with oodles of unoptimized mesh made by (mostly) self-taught content creators. Our world, our imaginations, remember? Because of this, frame rates in SL will always be at the edge of the tolerable, no matter how good or bad the tech is. It's a law of nature.

Also, PBR(-like) rendering with reflections has been around since the Playstation 2 in the very early 2000s. It's 'ouwe meuk', as we say in Dutch. Don't blame PBR, blame society.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[AmeliaJ08]

9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I suspect my own laptop, which is a new and very solid Thinkpad but definitely not a gaming computer, is probably producing something closer to what most people are likely to experience.

On 12/9/2023 at 11:57 PM, Quartz Mole said:

As I understand it, it's a myth that lots of people log into SL with very low spec machines -- LL see the default graphics settings that viewers apply when they're installed, whatever people may later set them to, and apparently the vast majority of users have machines that can easily handle medium to higher-range graphics settings.    The only sizeable constituency who use very low end machines are bots, who are logged in on text-only viewers for obvious reasons.

We do have that quote from Quartz that LL collect hardware data and they believe most users do have the necessary hardware.

Who knows though, there's also nothing specific in it. I also make the assumption that the necessary hardware to handle higher-range graphics means a dedicated GPU but there's some obvious exceptions to this in more modern laptops where the integrated GPU might well be enough to deliver a mostly-okay SL experience (Intel Iris/Arc series integrated, some AMD chips with 780M integrated) but the rest of them I would definitely say are not enough for SL.

People obviously have a very different tolerance for poor performance as well, I can run SL on integrated (Intel UHD 630) graphics but I would not say it is realistically usable since performance is <15fps with ALM etc enabled in an averagely busy scene, others would maybe disagree with that though.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

When I see this thread popup in my "Unread" feed, I often think "SHAMWOW!" (as in, the commercials).

 

[Ardy Lay]

Hey y'all!  Watch this! (powers up Dell Dimension 4100 made in 2001)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

We do have that quote from Quartz that LL collect hardware data and they believe most users do have the necessary hardware.

Who knows though, there's also nothing specific in it. I also make the assumption that the necessary hardware to handle higher-range graphics means a dedicated GPU but there's some obvious exceptions to this in more modern laptops where the integrated GPU might well be enough to deliver a mostly-okay SL experience (Intel Iris/Arc series integrated, some AMD chips with 780M integrated) but the rest of them I would definitely say are not enough for SL.

People obviously have a very different tolerance for poor performance as well, I can run SL on integrated (Intel UHD 630) graphics but I would not say it is realistically usable since performance is <15fps with ALM etc enabled in an averagely busy scene, others would maybe disagree with that though.

 

I am sure that Quartz is correct.

But a pretty large segment of those in many of the communities in which I engage in SL is comprised of non-gamers who see SL as mostly a social platform, and likely do not have high end or perhaps even mid-ranged graphics, because graphics quality is not hugely important to them. I spoke to one good friend last night who almost never has ALM turned on, and who revealed that 10-15 FPS is not unusual for him: he's on an older Mac.

It will be interesting to hear from them how they are impacted when the newer PBR viewers become mandatory. I think, unfortunately, that some of these people are going to be shocked by the degradation of performance.

[LipstickAndDreams]

3 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

We do have that quote from Quartz that LL collect hardware data and they believe most users do have the necessary hardware.

Who knows though, there's also nothing specific in it. I also make the assumption that the necessary hardware to handle higher-range graphics means a dedicated GPU but there's some obvious exceptions to this in more modern laptops where the integrated GPU might well be enough to deliver a mostly-okay SL experience (Intel Iris/Arc series integrated, some AMD chips with 780M integrated) but the rest of them I would definitely say are not enough for SL.

People obviously have a very different tolerance for poor performance as well, I can run SL on integrated (Intel UHD 630) graphics but I would not say it is realistically usable since performance is <15fps with ALM etc enabled in an averagely busy scene, others would maybe disagree with that though.

 

Does this data include all the people that use third-party viewers? And more critically, does it correlate total hardware cost of each given system with money spent on SL? That is going to be the real critical factor, though I think we all know the answer already.

[Jenna Huntsman]

1 minute ago, LipstickAndDreams said:

4 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Does this data include all the people that use third-party viewers?

It does. All TPVs listed in the TPV Directory collect telemetry data and submit it to LL.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, LipstickAndDreams said:

Does this data include all the people that use third-party viewers? And more critically, does it correlate total hardware cost of each given system with money spent on SL? That is going to be the real critical factor, though I think we all know the answer already.

Do we?

Are you implying that those with low end computers are not "contributing" much to the SL economy, and therefore are relatively "expendable"?

[AmeliaJ08]

5 minutes ago, LipstickAndDreams said:

Does this data include all the people that use third-party viewers? And more critically, does it correlate total hardware cost of each given system with money spent on SL? That is going to be the real critical factor, though I think we all know the answer already.

No clue, I just noticed and replied to it earlier because I found it interesting that apparently this data is being collected... since I've long thought SL needs a hardware survey for creators to maybe begin to consider when creating things.

As far as spending goes... I can't imagine there's a whole lot of correlation there.

Edited December 12, 2023 by AmeliaJ08

[LipstickAndDreams]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Do we?

Are you implying that those with low end computers are not "contributing" much to the SL economy, and therefore are relatively "expendable"?

I am implying that people who have $1000-$2000 to spend on a gaming PC are going to be more likely to have extra disposable income. The tinfoil hatter inside me is saying that the PBR decision is a consequence of higher interest rates; other platforms have made decisions to attempt to limit availability to non-paying users recently too (for example Youtube cracking down on adblockers, twitter requiring users to pay to register, etc.) Something like a rendering engine overhaul would accomplish this for SL too, without being as overt as requiring people to pay in order to use the platform.

Edited December 12, 2023 by LipstickAndDreams
elaboration

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I tried the FS alpha PBR last night.

First of all, and speaking primarily in my capacity as an SL photographer, I have to say that I was impressed by the improvement in graphics quality. I actually don't care quite so much about dynamic "shine" and "reflection" on objects, as I'm taking static pics, but the added nuance to light and shadow was very nice -- although at the extremes, the light could either be too glaring, or the shadows too dark. But that's fixable. I spent some time, frankly, staring at the back of the flannel shirt I was wearing, which was newish, but not using PBR. It looked fantastic. So, I'm happy about that.

On the other hand, I DID take a pretty massive hit on FPS. Again, I'm using a brand new, mid-range, off-the-shelf Thinkpad with an Adeon GPU and 18mbs of RAM that functions more than adequately normally in SL.

On the new viewer, using the recommended graphics settings, my FPS was more than halved, and fluctuated, without shadows and AO turned on, at between about 35-45 FPS on a sky platform. On the ground, it was knocked down probably another 10 FPS.

That's not bad, really . . . for me. But I can see how this is going to hit some users pretty hard.

I DO think that making ALM optional would be a good idea unless they want to dismay a fairly sizable number of residents.

[Istelathis]

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

When I see this thread popup in my "Unread" feed, I often think "SHAMWOW!" (as in, the commercials).

 

I think of Pabst Blue Ribbon.

20 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

Hey y'all!  Watch this! (powers up Dell Dimension 4100 made in 2001)

 

 

[Jenna Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I DO think that making ALM optional would be a good idea unless they want to dismay a fairly sizable number of residents.

This isn't actually possible with the new rendering code in the PBR viewer - the old (pre-ALM) rendering code was stripped out as it's incapable (or, just plain too expensive) of some of the features required by the new viewer.

If you're struggling with framerate, follow these recommendations: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/PBR_Materials#Removal_of_Advanced_Lighting_Model_.28_ALM_.29_Graphics_Option

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, LipstickAndDreams said:

I am implying that people who have $1000-$2000 to spend on a gaming PC are going to be more likely to have extra disposable income. The tinfoil hatter inside me is saying that the PBR decision is a consequence of higher interest rates; other platforms have made decisions to attempt to limit availability to non-paying users recently too (for example Youtube cracking down on adblockers, twitter requiring users to pay to register, etc.) Something like a rendering engine overhaul would accomplish this for SL too, without being as overt as requiring people to pay in order to use the platform.

/me passes you more tin foil.

I'd like to think that LL is not being quite that cynical, but it's not improbable, perhaps, that they've calculated that those they might lose to this are also not "big spenders," and probably not Premium.

If they are thinking as you suggest, I'd suggest their reasoning is faulty -- unless they are under the illusion that adding PBR is going to bring a swarm of new residents to the platform (a highly unlikely scenario, in my view).

If one assumes that residents with low-end or old computers are going to respond by upgrading their computers, then they are likely to have less disposable income to spend in-world, not more. And those who simply leave will hit concurrency numbers (and, still, to some degree the economy) without the platform seeing a corresponding influx of new residents.

[AmeliaJ08]

All this talk of hardware made me take a look at the Linden Lab recommended hardware requirements for Second Life, found here:

https://secondlife.com/system-requirements

It's actually a pretty strange set of requirements/recommendations for a couple of reasons. The first is that an 8-core CPU is 'recommended' for no obvious reason given SL is famously not utilizing that many CPU cores, you might see the occasional use of additional cores but really it's a strange thing to say 8-core recommended when 4-6 will be just fine.

The other strange thing is absolutely no recommendation as far as graphics hardware beyond OpenGL 4.6 support being recommended. This version of the API was released in 2017 and as such is pretty widely supported (older versions also qualifying for 'minimum' requirements) across a wide range of hardware ranging from pretty unsuitable (most integrated graphics designs pre Intel Iris Xe) to passable (Iris Xe, newer flavors of integrated Radeon, Apple Silicon) to adequate (any Nvidia, Intel Arc or AMD dedicated GPU both desktop and laptop).

SL certainly runs on a lot of hardware but 'runs' does not mean it will be a nice experience and I'd say someone interested in trying it will get next to no good information on their computer's suitability for Second Life in 2023 based on those recommendations.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by AmeliaJ08

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

If you're struggling with framerate, follow these recommendations: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/PBR_Materials#Removal_of_Advanced_Lighting_Model_.28_ALM_.29_Graphics_Option

Here's the problem, though, Jenna.

I'm reasonably up-to-speed on developments in the viewers, and on "fixes" and "work-arounds," largely because I'm on the forums, and I also have some techy friends.

But the vast majority of those who are going to be most impacted by this -- indeed, I'd argue the majority of SL residents in general -- will really have no idea why their frame rates have dropped precipitously. And they are certainly not going to know where to find information on a fix unless LL directs them to it. I doubt that most SL residents are aware that there even is a wiki. Probably a majority are at best only vaguely aware that there are forums.

To be effective, that fix needs to be put into a single and prominent button on the graphics tab. Otherwise, almost no one will know it's even possible.

11 minutes ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

This isn't actually possible with the new rendering code in the PBR viewer - the old (pre-ALM) rendering code was stripped out as it's incapable (or, just plain too expensive) of some of the features required by the new viewer.

That also was originally my understanding, but am I not reading above that the Cool Viewer has this option? Or am I misunderstanding?

[LipstickAndDreams]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Here's the problem, though, Jenna.

I'm reasonably up-to-speed on developments in the viewers, and on "fixes" and "work-arounds," largely because I'm on the forums, and I also have some techy friends.

But the vast majority of those who are going to be most impacted by this -- indeed, I'd argue the majority of SL residents in general -- will really have no idea why their frame rates have dropped precipitously. And they are certainly not going to know where to find information on a fix unless LL directs them to it. I doubt that most SL residents are aware that there even is a wiki. Probably a majority are at best only vaguely aware that there are forums.

To be effective, that fix needs to be put into a single and prominent button on the graphics tab. Otherwise, almost no one will know it's even possible.

That also was originally my understanding, but am I not reading above that the Cool Viewer has this option? Or am I misunderstanding?

The Cool VL viewer contains both rendering engines. The creator, Henri Beauchamp, decided to keep the old one in order to keep his viewer usable on low-spec systems. It will be my viewer of choice once I finish loading my enormous inventory cache onto it.

And the fact that it is literally maintained by a single person is honestly inspiring. It makes me want to learn how to do that.

Edited December 12, 2023 by LipstickAndDreams

[Jenna Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

To be effective, that fix needs to be put into a single and prominent button on the graphics tab. Otherwise, almost no one will know it's even possible.

That's what the "Improve Graphics speed..." button is meant to do. If it achieves this or not is a different matter, but generally if it's not doing what it's supposed to, then submit a JIRA.

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

That also was originally my understanding, but am I not reading above that the Cool Viewer has this option? Or am I misunderstanding?

I believe Henri has essentially reimplemented the viewer 6.x renderer alongside the viewer 7.x renderer, which may work, for now, but I remember Henri has also mentioned that this option won't be around forever, and will only be maintained as long as it makes sense to do so. It does also mean that any object using PBR materials either won't render (will use the Blinn-Phong texture underneath) or will not use the entire material (i.e. rendering base color only - this will mean that any object that uses PBR will look broken).