Tipping Etiquette

[kali Wylder]

21 hours ago, Dafadilia Wayfarer said:

It's up to the patron if they feel they wish to tip or not. There shouldn't ever be any pressure for them to do so and that is one of the few things I truly despised having to do as a hostess.

Totally agree with you.   I always tip if I'm in a club.  I tip the venue, the host, and the DJ or musician. Operating a club is not a way to make money.  Most places barely squeak by, if they're not operating in the red.  Musicians, DJs and hosts have expenses too.  Back when I hosted, I was lucky enough to host at a club that didn't have any rules requiring me to beg for tips. 

I had a job in RL, I didn't depend on my SL tips for a living.  I hosted for fun.  That being said, I did quite well as a host.  I didn't expect everyone to tip, and it didn't matter to me whether a person tipped me or not, I did my best to help them to have a good time.  It was rewarding in it's own right.  I got to help people.  I had some great conversations. I learned things.  And I made enough to support my shopping habit.  Now that I don't host any more, I've had to let go of my shopping habit.

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Tip, Tipsy..it's all the same.

Right?

[Stephanie Misfit]

22 hours ago, Dafadilia Wayfarer said:

It's up to the patron if they feel they wish to tip or not. There shouldn't ever be any pressure for them to do so and that is one of the few things I truly despised having to do as a hostess.

Absolutely. Imagine if people just did not go to a venue, because they were unable to tip. This would lead to empty venues, which is a lot less fun for those who do go there and tip, and for those who are working there. People who can't or won't tip provide something to the venue too.

[Seicher Rae]

On 8/25/2023 at 7:50 PM, Perrie Juran said:

Actually everything  that you have said here, and especially this last statement is all the more reason for why I should not tip. If the host is keeping the club running smoothly and making life simpler for you then the responsibility for compensating them (tipping) clearly belongs to you and the club owner and not me.

Gawd, my life is boring. I've actually thought about your response (above) for a few days!

I haven't read the entire thread through assiduously, so I'm probably reiterating what someone else has said.

But Perrie, your response confused me. So... don't tip someone for doing a good job? That's what I read you as saying. Huh?

Now, there could be a couple of different threads going on at once in this one thread, and I'm wondering if they are:

1) Employees should be compensated adequately by the company (be it a real life café or SL club) and tipping is a horrible, archaic way to make a living wage. (In SL a "living wage" is debatable, but in RL not as much.) So no one *should* be tipped? I'd posit it more like "and so we should need to tip someone as the expected course of frequenting an establishment, like paying a tax" and/or "someone shouldn't rely on tips for their work compensation." (I would actually agree with the latter statement.)

2) However, the system of a business underpaying employees, because the tip system IS in place, in both lives. So who do you tip and how much, if at all? Another conversation.

3) A side conversation is that so few hosts/hostesses do anything worthwhile, so what about the few that actually do contribute to your enjoyment and experiences. (This one is definitely a YMMV. Until being around Da5id and seeing various hostesses weekly, I had never experienced a "host" situation where they added anything but a mild welcome and a lot of annoying stuff.)

Edited August 29, 2023 by Seicher Rae
grammar

[Perrie Juran]

3 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

But Perrie, your response confused me. So... don't tip someone for doing a good job? That's what I read you as saying. Huh?

My question was pretty simple, "Why am I tipping this person?"  And there have been points and counter points made, pros & cons, etc. I've been tipping hosts for many years, and while I did not say this at the start, a couple of recent incidents led me to ask why.

The Second Life economy has some strange quirks.

[KanryDrago]

I host but only once a week. I see my job as two fold....1 is as an assistant to my dj and 2 is an enabler of entertainment. I really do it because I enjoy it so I don't care if anyone tips me or not and in any case I just throw whats in my tip jar at the end of the night to support the venue.

If truth be known I usually end up making a loss hosting because if chat is slow and everyone is buried deep in im's I will do stuff like throw out a quirky trivia question with a linden prize for the first correct answer in local to get people out of their shells.

 

 

[Seicher Rae]

12 hours ago, Perrie Juran said:

My question was pretty simple, "Why am I tipping this person?"  And there have been points and counter points made, pros & cons, etc. I've been tipping hosts for many years, and while I did not say this at the start, a couple of recent incidents led me to ask why.

The Second Life economy has some strange quirks.

Well, that still doesn't answer my question regarding my confusion as to your response to @Da5id Weatherwax's comment, but since this is now going layers deep I'll just be satisfied with my confusion as to why someone doing a job well would be cause for not tipping them in the economy as it IS (versus how it should be).

The SL economy mimics or is part of the RL economy.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 8/24/2023 at 9:53 AM, Ajay McDowwll said:

I both DJ and host at different venues on the grid.  Others have covered tipping the DJ and live artist, so I'm going to focus on the hosting perspective for this response.

For hosting, the hosts are often required to create the event listing at secondlife.com (which costs money if they're not listing a repeating event as a Premium Plus member).  They're required to be at the venue generally 15 minutes ahead of time, minimum, send out inworld event announcements (generally once per hour), greet everyone entering the club, remind folks where the DJ/ live artist's tipjar is located, mention the venue tipjar and its location, offer group invites/ add people to the group manually, and keep conversation flowing in local.

When hosts are reminding folks to tip the DJ or live artist, we're required to do this by the venue.  How many times we point out the tipjars is also regulated by the venue.  This is why at one of my hosting gigs I remind folks 3x/ hour to tip the live artist and 1x/ hour to tip the club, whereas at another venue I remind once an hour for the DJ and once every two hours for the club.  I'm far more comfortable with the latter frequency; if it weren't for the live artist component in the former, I'd push back pretty heavily with venue ownership.

If we don't do this, we don't get work. 

I am aware that there are clubs on the grid where hosts are forbidden to request tips for anyone or anything, on the basis that people know what tipjars are and they know how to shove money into them.  I wish more venues followed this model. 

Refusing to tip on the basis of a host saying something about "linden love" (a phrase I've uttered maybe once in my hosting career -- I'll usually say about anything but those words, because they give me a nasty shiver up my spine) or any reminder they issue about tipping is absolutely your right, and it's also refusing to tip someone because they're literally doing their job.  A better move in my eyes would be to mention to the venue owner that a few less reminders to tip may go further than an endless barrage.  You might be surprised how many hosts agree with that assessment.

As for hosts who don't even greet, who are basically AFKing their host shift, churning out boilerplate gestures if they have text to local at all, and are only chatting with friends?  They're not doing their jobs.  I usually tip hosts pretty generously as well as DJs and live artists; my standard is 200 lindens.  I will go up to 500 lindens for DJs and as high as 500-1000 lindens for live artists, depending on how tight my SL budget is at any given moment.  Personally, most of my tips are in turn tipped out to others.

All that said, if a host is "working" and the most that I see are desultory greetings (if that), and never see text to local from them again?  Nope.  No tip.  Your mere existence does not entitle you to my precious lindens.

To draw that out further, no one is entitled to your lindens other than you.  Period.  However, if the person is providing a service that enhances an event, SL is a tipping economy and tipping is absolutely appropriate. 

Most of us who host are quite aware there are some people who will never tip us. I am friends with some of these people!  For me, it's not a big deal.  I'm aware of the bias, and I'm still going to do my job, send announcements, follow club procedures, and chat with anyone who feels like chatting back regardless of whether or not they wish to tip me.

The venue owner should view the host as staff and pay that person directly, as a percentage of their tips. Most venues end up having to have rental signs or booths to cover costs, so they can pay the host from there as well.

I think it is simply too much to ask to expect a patron to pay the live musician or DJ, the venue owner AND the host.

People pay live musicians in SL far too little in tips. If I went to the corner Irish bar, there might be cover of US $3 or US $5 and I think a live musician in SL should get at least that much. They might be able to sell a CD for US $5 or whatever; I bet it's rare for any musician in SL to get someone to buy a RL CD or music download online.

When the economy was better, I used to tip 1000L. And if I didn't have the 1000L, I stopped going. Maybe it would be better to go and just pay 100L, but then I'm taking up a slot on a sim from someone who might tip better.

Today, I usually pay 250L to live musicians, which is what I have, and might muster 100L or 150L for the club owner. It's sad, given the value of live music, especially if original, but there it is.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 8/25/2023 at 4:45 PM, Da5id Weatherwax said:

As a performer, thank you on behalf of ALL of us for your tips.

Also as a performer, thank you for supporting the venues - without them, we'd not be able to stand up and entertain you. One can't just roll up on a corner of Linden roads and start busking, the grid dont work like that.

Now, let's talk about the host(esse)s. They don't just stand around and greet people like a "hello bot." If I have a good host to work with at a particular venue, they handle representing the venue owner to me and representing ME to all the folks who might be familiar with the venue but who have never heard ME perform. They send out groupnotes and group chat advertising my upcoming set, they keep me informed about stuff going on at the venue I might need to be aware of. Their job is to make everything run smoothly and do all the irritating crap that a virtual venue demands so I don't have to fit all that in around a live soundcheck and warming up for a performance. They do a lot of work that, as an attendee, you never see - that you aren't supposed to see. So do tip 'em. Please. A good host is an absolute godsend to a performer of any kind. Show your appreciation of the work they do, so that all of us performers continue to have good ones available.

A lot of musicians and DJs I know send out their own group notices and list their own events, it's not that time-consuming. In fact, some DJ's have the annoying habit of friending you and then force-porting you to their venue.

But the venue owner should be the one present to prevent griefing and reduce spam etc and if they must have a hostess if it really is as much work as claimed, the venue owner should give them an hourly wage or flat wage every week. A store owner wouldn't make their CSR or blogger live off tips, but would give them a regular wage. 

The hostesses add to the noise, distract from the live music, and it's one more hand out in SL in a poor economy.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Prokofy Neva

[Seicher Rae]

3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The venue owner should view the host as staff and pay that person directly, as a percentage of their tips. Most venues end up having to have rental signs or booths to cover costs, so they can pay the host from there as well.

I think it is simply too much to ask to expect a patron to pay the live musician or DJ, the venue owner AND the host.

People pay live musicians in SL far too little in tips. If I went to the corner Irish bar, there might be cover of US $3 or US $5 and I think a live musician in SL should get at least that much. They might be able to sell a CD for US $5 or whatever; I bet it's rare for any musician in SL to get someone to buy a RL CD or music download online.

When the economy was better, I used to tip 1000L. And if I didn't have the 1000L, I stopped going. Maybe it would be better to go and just pay 100L, but then I'm taking up a slot on a sim from someone who might tip better.

Today, I usually pay 250L to live musicians, which is what I have, and might muster 100L or 150L for the club owner. It's sad, given the value of live music, especially if original, but there it is.

 

Geez. The world is ending. Both a relatively short post and one that I agree with in total.

I have very little budget for SL these days, and "expecting" to pay the musician/DJ, venue, host, dancers... I just can't, not in a meaningful way and yes, 100L$ in real money isn't all that meaningful.  The system is messed up, but it seems to be the system we have, for some reason (mostly mirroring RL).

[Love Zhaoying]

I think we should Tip landowners ("landlords"), merchants, and creators.

It will confuse them and lead to great fun!

 

[Seicher Rae]

3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

A lot of musicians and DJs I know send out their own group notices and list their own events, it's not that time-consuming. In fact, some DJ's have the annoying habit of friending you and then force-porting you to their venue.

But the venue owner should be the one present to prevent griefing and reduce spam etc and if they must have a hostess if it really is as much work as claimed, the venue owner should give them an hourly wage or flat wage every week. A store owner wouldn't make their CSR or blogger live off tips, but would give them a regular wage. 

The hostesses add to the noise, distract from the live music, and it's one more hand out in SL in a poor economy.

Well, this one I understand, although don't entirely agree.  Thank the gods I have never had a DJ friend me and force-port! Unreal. :shudder:

The venue owner may not be able to be there all of the time, and hosts can act as a proxy. (Agree about the CSR/tip comment.)  Until I started hanging out at Da5id's sets, I never saw the point of hosts, but now that I am seeing things regularly, weekly, I'm seeing a different side of things... when the hostesses do their jobs (which imho "annoying" shouldn't be part of the job description and so much of what has been discussed in this thread is just annoying).

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

 One's popularity in SL is greatly determined by how well one tips.

I have not to my knowledge tipped a host.  I have blocked a few though.

 

 

 

[CandyCole]

Very rarely do I ever have SL music or sounds turned on. I listen to my own music or watch videos on the side. I don't recall ever visiting a live event in SL either as they're generally not my cup of tea. I remember once sitting in the audience of something Strawberry Singh did but can't remember what that was about. People just taking and feeling important.

From reading a few of the posts here it seems the tipping culture is very similar, if not the same, in SL as in RL. There's an expectation of a tip to cover the poor or non-existent wages of people working. Besides the DJ working at doing what?

Also, any venue which has a welcoming committee that announces my entrance by name in local chat before the venue and patrons are anywhere near to being rezzed will likely have me moving on elsewhere. I just don't like having attention drawn to me in general and have much better use for the small quantity of Linden $ sitting in my account.

Yes, I'm an absolute bundle of laughs, but I enjoy quiet more intimate gatherings or connections that do not include crowds, tipping, and faux fun. From time to time I get tipped for looking lovely in the form of L$ cash or Wishlist gifts. That's the only tipping I get involved with.

[Liaa Nova]

16 hours ago, CandyCole said:

Very rarely do I ever have SL music or sounds turned on. I listen to my own music or watch videos on the side. I don't recall ever visiting a live event in SL either as they're generally not my cup of tea. I remember once sitting in the audience of something Strawberry Singh did but can't remember what that was about. People just taking and feeling important.

From reading a few of the posts here it seems the tipping culture is very similar, if not the same, in SL as in RL. There's an expectation of a tip to cover the poor or non-existent wages of people working. Besides the DJ working at doing what?

Also, any venue which has a welcoming committee that announces my entrance by name in local chat before the venue and patrons are anywhere near to being rezzed will likely have me moving on elsewhere. I just don't like having attention drawn to me in general and have much better use for the small quantity of Linden $ sitting in my account.

Yes, I'm an absolute bundle of laughs, but I enjoy quiet more intimate gatherings or connections that do not include crowds, tipping, and faux fun. From time to time I get tipped for looking lovely in the form of L$ cash or Wishlist gifts. That's the only tipping I get involved with.

This! I absolutely hate clubs calling out to me when I didn't rez yet and want to just go in quietly and not be centre of attention! If you really must, at least wait a few

[aht1981]

I pretty much don't bother now. If a dj has 5k in tips I'm not bothering. Maybe if there are 4 people present then I probably would toss in 100. Kind of tired of spending weeks working on a project that can't generate sales but then a dj rocks up at opening, opens spotify and plays and collects 5k. It's just an ego trip for them

[KanryDrago]

Thursday I hosted....was a tough crowd and trying to get them to chat in local was hard. I managed it in the end and got them talking. I ended up about 2,5k down on the night but I entertained and people I think went away thinking they had had a good time

[KanryDrago]

3 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Thursday I hosted....was a tough crowd and trying to get them to chat in local was hard. I managed it in the end and got them talking. I ended up about 2,5k down on the night but I entertained and people I think went away thinking they had had a good time

What annoys be about this thread is there is a lot here complaining about hosts and we do nothing, there are however a lot like me that do a lot of ***** to make your evening entertaining. I dont care if you dont tip it really wont bother me. But what does bother me is I suspect a lot of those complaining are also the sort to goto a club and and not even engage in local. You feel entitled to be entertained but wont even put being active in local back. Thats what most of us want....if I walk into the club and get 2000 in tips but all are silent I failed....walk into the club and get nothing in tips and people leave going wow that was fun I succeeded

[Rat Luv]

I find it interesting that whenever this subject comes up, all the hosts (or ex-hosts like me) feel the need to justify ourselves, or say "Oh, I don't do it for the tips!" 

Which isn't completely wrong...I actually think the best perk you can have as a host is to win the owner's trust and have free rein to run your own slot as you want. I remember having real fun with certain DJs, doing themed nights and even temporarily redecorating the club just for our set 

But it is weird...hosts always feel the need to justify what they do...but DJs and musicians believe they are worth every penny ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  Hosts shouldn't belittle their own skills! I don't care how people tip, really, but I find people saying "Oh, hosts just gesturbate and do nothing" a bit like saying "Oh, all SL musicians just play American Pie on acoustic guitar"...and anyone who thinks hosting is a doddle should maybe volunteer for a 4-hour hosting shift at an RFL event, helping 4 musicians and DJs connect to the stream without hiccups with 30+ people lagging out the sim, while sending notices to 6 different groups, thanking everyone who hits the RFL vendor and dealing with 10 IMs, including "hi hru" 

 

[Da5id Weatherwax]

Well, at least I provoked a little debate with my earlier comment

(and I do mean "debate" not the usual internet poo-flinging that sometimes happens - thank you all for keeping it civil )

I guess, for me at least, the bottom line on tipping entertainers and venues in SL is simple.

If you want a particular performer to keep performing - wherever they happen to do it - chuck 'em a few lindens.
If you want a particular venue to stay open - whoever happens to be performing there - chuck a few lindens.
And if you've got a good host who isn't just a gesturebating greeter-bot, chuck them a few as well so that they keep doing it. Otherwise all any venue will have left is the other kind.

All three may not apply at the particular event you're attending and it's entirely up to you which ones, if any, you think do.