Bellisseria and the Land Ban List

[Innula Zenovka]

18 minutes ago, Teresa Firelight said:

@Innula .. can you set up two? one that trips if the person accidentally steps into the parcel and one that only activates if the person actually enters the house? That would provide an interesting statistic

 

That would complicate things more than I'd like, because I'd have to detect when someone's inside the house without being able to drop a script into it.   

I'm going, though, to log arrival and departure times, which I think will tell me pretty much the same thing (unless someone stays in the garden admiring the koi carp swimming round my fishpond).

[Nika Talaj]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

As an experiment, I think I'll set up a  vistor logger, leave it running in my house on Bellisseria for a month and see how many people actually enter the parcel while I'm not there.  

I'll post the results here.

i have a visitor logger script that tracks how long anyone who is  not in my group spends on my parcel.  It does not eliminate duplicates, and on a couple of my properties I've had it running for years.

VERY few people come onto my parcels unless I'm giving something away (less than 3 people/month).  Even if I'm giving something away, people tend to just cam in. Mostly, people very occasionally blunder onto my parcel for less than 10 seconds.  Oddly, people who blunder in are generally not neighbors.  I think they may mostly be people whose vehicle has gotten a little out of control.

When we had our own stream, once or twice a year we'd have a guest who would spend time listening to it.  (We could tell when people actually listened to the stream).  But I don't have that anymore.

[Istelathis]

I once left my security ball up in Bellisseria, it was all within limits and set to my skybox. I completely forgot about it, until one day I was checking my land for any stray prims that may be floating around.  It kept track of everyone it had kicked out, which was only my alt to test it out and a mole.  It was still in place after, but I felt so bad about having a mole kicked off my property that I deleted it.  

It also kept track of visitors in that defined area in my parcel, and there were only like two people that had crossed through it.  It must have been there for months before I  found it, just running with no point at all.  There really was no need for it anyway, I would have deleted it sooner if I even knew it was still up there.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Istelathis

[Persephone Emerald]

8 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I once left my security ball up in Bellisseria, it was all within limits and set to my skybox. I completely forgot about it, until one day I was checking my land for any stray prims that may be floating around.  It kept track of everyone it had kicked out, which was only my alt to test it out and a mole.  It was still in place after, but I felt so bad about having a mole kicked off my property that I deleted it.  

It also kept track of visitors in that defined area in my parcel, and there were only like two people that had crossed through it.  It must have been there for months before I  found it, just running with no point at all.  There really was no need for it anyway, I would have deleted it sooner if I even knew it was still up there.

That's another advantage of just parcel-banning troublemakers after they show they're troublemakers - fewer running scripts.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

Sounds like some of the people in this thread are ready for the freedom of a mainland parcel.  Congrats on the moving!

You can insta-ban and auto-kick anyone whenever you want on mainland.   No covenants to hold you back.  You can secure your parcel in any way to you want - ban lines, 0 second security, TP them to their home.  You don't have to question why they may have put a toe on your land or if it was an innocent mistake.  It doesn't matter if it was an accident.  

You have a choice. Move out of Bellisseria and go wherever your freedom might take you.  Sounds like an adventure.

Best of luck! 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Cinnamon Mistwood
spelling ugh

[Abnor Mole]

36 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

It was still in place after, but I felt so bad about having a mole kicked off my property that I deleted it.  

Don't feel bad. That was probably just one of us going through regions testing to see if any security systems were set improperly and checking to make sure it wasn't trying to teleport people home.

[Persephone Emerald]

18 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Sounds like some of the people in this thread are ready for the freedom of a mainland parcel.  Congrats on the moving!

You can insta-ban and auto-kick anyone whenever you want on mainland.   No covenants to hold you back.  You can secure your parcel in any way to you want - ban lines, 0 second security, TP them to their home.  You don't have to question why they may have put a toe on your land or if it was an innocent mistake.  It doesn't matter if it was an accident.  

You have a choice. Move out of Bellisseria and go wherever your freedom might take you.  Sounds like an adventure.

Best of luck! 

I was going to say Mainland is a Libertarian paradise, but then I found this article from 2008 that says it isn't.

https://reason.com/2008/02/14/is-second-lifes-libertarian-ex/

SL has very gradually added more restrictions on users, but I don't think this has been a bad thing. Bellisseria has been hugely popular, not just because it's cheap rent, but because it's attractive and relatively friendly to exploration and community-building. 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

26 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I was going to say Mainland is a Libertarian paradise, but then I found this article from 2008 that says it isn't.

https://reason.com/2008/02/14/is-second-lifes-libertarian-ex/

SL has very gradually added more restrictions on users, but I don't think this has been a bad thing. Bellisseria has been hugely popular, not just because it's cheap rent, but because it's attractive and relatively friendly to exploration and community-building. 

Well that was an extreme reaction involving @ge pl@y and gambling.

This is about security orb permissions in Bellisseria.  Anyone who does not like the security restrictions in Bellisseria has the option of moving to an area where those restrictions are not in place.  I wish them well.  I lived on mainland for years.  It can be a fun place.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Cinnamon Mistwood

[Phil Deakins]

13 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So, I learned a lot from this thread! Not sure where the confusion was, unless the information from the link below does not match the Official "About Land" Bellisseria Covenant.

There hasn't been any confusion.

There is nothing in the Bellisseria covenant that says that avatars can't be automatically banned from the parcel. It only says that they can't be automatically banned by adding them to the land's ban list. Perhaps you're the only one who was confused

[Phil Deakins]

14 hours ago, Abnor Mole said:

If you mean automatically banning them, it can be if that's what it takes to make it clear. 

I suggested earlier that that's what should be done, and I still think it should be because, as it is now, banning by using a blacklist is absolutely allowed according the to covenant.

[Phil Deakins]

A general comment to what was discussed in some posts since I went to bed last night

Bellisseria home parcels are not very big, and a 'visitor' staying for the whole 15 seconds (minimum), through the several warnings s/he receives during it, shows a good indication of intent. It is not innocent. S/he may not be up to anything nefarious, but s/he is not innocent. In that case, it is reasonable to automatically ban the avatar, at least for a period of time.

That said, I'm past it now. I have a solution that fits the spirit of the covenant. It's not ideal, but it fits. I started this thread to make sure that the upgrade to one of my devices fits the covenant in fine detail. I didn't expect this lot lol.

 

@Abnor Mole
You've threatened to change the covenant more than once in this thread. If you have the ability to do that, I strongly suggest that you do it, because the covenant, as it is now, literally allows the  automatic banning of avatars by any means other than the land's ban list.

Almost the whole of this thread came about because of the failure of the covenant to fully state what is not allowed. I don't think that any automatic banning should be disallowed, provided that trespassers have been given sufficient time and warnings to move on, but that's just my opinion. Since it is disallowed, it really should be made clear in the covenant. Almost all of this thread wouldn't even exist if the covenant had been written correctly in the first place.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Fionalein]

I agree, enforcing unspoken rules causes user frustration.

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Fionalein said:

I agree, enforcing unspoken rules causes user frustration.

Common sense are unspoken rules too.
Using common sense doesn't lead to user frustration most of the time.
 

[Always Incognito]

Im a bit envious of all, even if we call them "uninvited", guests some ppl gets on their parcels. My advice is to, instead of an orb, set up a "Welcome" sign as i always have. Im member of "Forever tourist" too to get more visitors but most weeks i have zero (0) visitors  (I dont have any visitor counter but i get a report from Forever tourist every week). I have always felt secure in SL, im more careful about who i interact with irl. Even in games iv played where iv been spawn ganked again and again i felt secure, irritated maybee 😆 but still secure ❤️

[Phil Deakins]

32 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Common sense are unspoken rules too.
Using common sense doesn't lead to user frustration most of the time.
 

But having ejected avatars coming straight back and staying a minimum of 15 seconds time after time after time, ad infinitum, or until the owner goes to the lengths of manually banning them using the land's ban list, does/can lead to user frustration

And, of course, the 'spirit of the rules' is unspoken, so anyone getting caught by it, has good reason to feel frustrated. Tell us the full rules and we'll stick to them. Don't tell us and catch us infringing the unsaid rules, and we'll be frustrated.

It's not common sense to assume that there are actual rules that don't appear in the published list of rules. And it's not common sense to allow trespassers to keep on coming back immediately. In this case common sense says to automatically keep trespassers out who won't leave, and who stay all the way through the warnings, at least for a while. That's common sense.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Sid Nagy]

I never have banned a visitor to one of my houses in SL ever.
First thing I do is open the doors (or even remove them if they don't stay open).
On the very rare occasion I find somebody in my home when I arrive, I start a conversations.  Never had to bother to ban someone in 16 years.
I know mileages may vary, but I really couldn't care less is others walk around in my house when I'm not there.

[Phil Deakins]

So?

[Tamara Adored]

13 minutes ago, Always Incognito said:

Im a bit envious of all, even if we call them "uninvited", guests some ppl gets on their parcels. My advice is to, instead of an orb, set up a "Welcome" sign as i always have. Im member of "Forever tourist" too to get more visitors but most weeks i have zero (0) visitors  (I dont have any visitor counter but i get a report from Forever tourist every week). I have always felt secure in SL, im more careful about who i interact with irl. Even in games iv played where iv been spawn ganked again and again i felt secure, irritated maybee 😆 but still secure ❤️

I too don’t mind people popping in. I have had mainland since 2007 & also land in Bellisseria. I have never used ban lines & I think the last time I used an orb was around 2009. If someone comes on my land while I’m not there, have at it. If I am there, I have a chat to the visitor & if they are there to give me grief or won’t leave when asked they get banned, about 3 clicks of my mouse, hardly frustrating. Most people are just having a look around, have used an old LM or have crashed a vehicle. If I am on my land & not paying attention I sit my avatar so she can’t be pushed or orbited. My furniture is always set to owner or group only so no one can pop in for a cheeky grope. It’s really not that difficult to do.

[Sid Nagy]

4 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

So?

So? 
IMHO There really is hardly a need to freak out about someone who somehow accesses your land.
And the in Belly provided orb gives more than enough security for people who are really protective about their parcel.
No need to split hair over the covenant about that.
It is more than clear enough

[Phil Deakins]

Of course, different people have their own ways of doing things with their land. This isn't about any of that. And one persons way doesn't apply to all. Who cares about how each individual uses their own land? I'm sure that nobody is suggesting that everyone in SL, or in Bellisseria, must do things the way they do, so who cares?

This thread is about the Bellisseria covenant - about what is and isn't allowed in Bellisseria. It's not about how each individual prefers to do things with their land. So please let's not get into lots of 'I do it this way' and 'I do it that way'.

The thread's topic has been fully satisfied. There is nothing more to say. I hope that the covenant will be changed to include all of what's not allowed, and that's it apart from encouraging the changing of the covenant to include all the rules.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Phil Deakins]

15 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

So? 
IMHO There really is hardly a need to freak out about someone who somehow accesses your land.
And the in Belly provided orb gives more than enough security for people who are really protective about their parcel.
No need to split hair over the covenant about that.
It is more than clear enough

Who cares if some people freak out over trespassers? I don't, and neither should you. I don't use a security device. I may have used one very briefly in the past - maybe a few weeks in 18 years. This thread has nothing to do with that. Everyone has their own way of doing things, and your way is not everyone's way, so don't try to make out that your way is the right/best way. Nobody cares about anyone's personal way. That's not what the discussion in this thread is about.

The covenant is absolutely not clear about what you think it's clear about. If you think it is, please show me where in the covenant it prohibits the auto-banning of avatars using a method other than the land's ban list. Show me. It's not there. It doesn't exist in the covenant. It specifically states that auto-banning using the land's ban list is not allowed, and that's all it says about it. It's said that for years. It never prohibited auto-banning by other methods, and it still doesn't. You're inventing things to argue about, Nagy.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Phil Deakins]

20 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Sid Nagy said, not me.

And the in Belly provided orb gives more than enough security for people who are really protective about their parcel.

Actually it doesn't. From what I've read about it in LL's text, it's very limited in what it can do. But this thread has nothing to do with that.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Sid Nagy]

Auto ban means one can access the parcel anymore, not even 15 seconds, right?
The Bellie covenant does grand you a 15 seconds trespassing right. And rightfully so, especially on the water oriented themes like the house boats.
The way they are situated it is almost inevitable to so cross a neighbors parcels water edge while navigating a boat in or out from ones own parcel. It is a matter of using common sense above entitlement IMHO.
The covenants should not become as thick as a book, just to avoid some hair splitting by some.
Common sense is way to go as much as possilbe.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Phil Deakins]

10 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Auto ban means one can access the parcel anymore, not even 15 seconds, right?
The Bellie covenant does grand you a 15 seconds trespassing right. And rightfully so, especially on the water oriented themes like the house boats.
The way they are situated it is almost inevitable to so cross a neighbors parcels edge while navigating a boat in or out from ones own parcel. It is a matter of using common sense above entitlement IMHO.
The covenants should not become as thick as a book, just to avoid some hair splitting by some.
Common sense.

You really haven't got into this, have you? Avatars are allowed to be banned. Tenants can use the land's ban list to do it, and your argument about water-themed homes applies. The discussion is only about the method of banning.

Actually, for the covenant to include auto-banning by any method, it would make it shorter, not longer like a book

All that's needed is to remove the few words about the land's ban list

Edited August 9, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

There is nothing in the Bellisseria covenant that says that avatars can't be automatically banned from the parcel. It only says that they can't be automatically banned by adding them to the land's ban list. Perhaps you're the only one who was confused

I am trying to read between the lines here. Did you think, "it is still OK to ban avatars using some other list, so long as it is not the parcel ban list"? 

Please try to be a little less insulting and condescending. I know you can!