Why doesn't SL water have waves and swells?

[Drayke Newall]

2 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Simulator limitations, really just one aspect of the server that could be a whole lot more up to date but... isn't.

Since when does 'server limitations' have anything to do with water effects in SL? Blame LL's GLACIAL movement in doing any meaningful update to the graphics engine, rendering code, viewer rendering, windlight (removal of features rather than adding), etc or just making a new viewer with a proper modern rendering/graphics engine.

As to the op's question... yes it is possible. You will however have to wait for the TPV to be released. A shame a TPV creator team of 1 or 2 can start doing what a  200+ staffed company like LL cant.

Here is the water and a new 'water prim' that is shown off in the Crystal Frost viewer alpha - a viewer using unity.

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Sid Nagy]

59 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

It helps if you know which way the rivers are flowing.

Rivers flowing INTO a larger body of water are usually freshwater.  For example, rivers originating from springs ("fresh vs. salty" due to limestone filtration etc.), streams, runoff from melted ice and snow..

Since rivers are not as likely to flow FROM larger bodies of water, rivers are not as likely to be salty.

I hope that makes sense, even if I pulled it out of my tail-hole.

Rivers => Runs downhill / following gravity => from usually freshwater sources => into larger bodies of water => which are usually salty except larger freshwater rivers, and freshwater lakes

 

Personally, I don't care what type of water is around me in SL.
At any given time I have an unlimited supply of more different drinks with me in my inventory, than even a RL bar with an extensive range of drinks has to offer.

[AmeliaJ08]

1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

Since when does 'server limitations' have anything to do with water effects in SL? Blame LL's GLACIAL movement in doing any meaningful update to the graphics engine, rendering code, viewer rendering, windlight (removal of features rather than adding), etc or just making a new viewer with a proper modern rendering/graphics engine.

As to the op's question... yes it is possible. You will however have to wait for the TPV to be released. A shame a TPV creator team of 1 or 2 can start doing what a  200+ staffed company like LL cant.

Here is the water and a new 'water prim' that is shown off in the Crystal Frost viewer alpha - a viewer using unity.

 

Because the simulation is run server side.

Waves would be part of the simulation, you can make your viewer look as pretty as you want but for a wave to be usable (objects float and ride on it) then it's part of the simulation: server side.

 

[Rolig Loon]

12 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Because the simulation is run server side.

Waves would be part of the simulation, you can make your viewer look as pretty as you want but for a wave to be usable (objects float and ride on it) then it's part of the simulation: server side.

And because items like the Crystal Frost "water prim", which have been around for quite a while in one form or another, are fine for parcel-level applications but not for the complex network of public and private waterways in SL. A 3D water solution would have to work not only across large regions (think the Blake Sea) but also seamlessly with all the public and privately-owned water areas around them. Linden water does that today because it is not a "thing" but a rendering effect applied by servers across the entire grid. 

[Bree Giffen]

Large waves and swells would be so nice. I can see how the server might need to track everything because there might be two residents on a boat and they would have to experience the same waves... I guess. I have no clue on how water works over in SL.

[Fenix Eldritch]

The irony is that the prototype for Second life, (then called Linden world) actually did support this kind of water.

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Fenix Eldritch

[AmeliaJ08]

52 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

And because items like the Crystal Frost "water prim", which have been around for quite a while in one form or another, are fine for parcel-level applications but not for the complex network of public and private waterways in SL. A 3D water solution would have to work not only across large regions (think the Blake Sea) but also seamlessly with all the public and privately-owned water areas around them. Linden water does that today because it is not a "thing" but a rendering effect applied by servers across the entire grid. 

Yeah. A 'real' water simulation could be very computationally intensive, it's doable if its kept simple enough but doing it in a way that doesn't annoy others especially on mainland... not sure.

Maybe something that could be experimented on in private regions though, I know Opensim has tides which are quite basic and just adjust the water height over a defined length of time (and a beacon announces current height for scripts to use to adjust the z of objects on water) but they work quite well.

Edited July 10, 2023 by AmeliaJ08

[Rolig Loon]

6 minutes ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

I know Opensim has tides which are quite basic and just adjust the water height over a defined length of time (and a beacon announces current height for scripts to use to adjust the z of objects on water) but they work quite well.

Yeah, I can see tides and other long-period variations working, although even there you'd have to deal with edge effects to simulate RL.  Changing water level itself isn't the challenge. Tidal effects in RL are most obvious along shorelines and in estuaries, where there's a volume problem. Water that is shoved into small spaces (shallow lagoons or river channels, for example) creates odd waves and makes streams flow "backwards".  Those effects are more obvious with short period waves, but even tidal fluctuations can make a dramatic difference (see the Bay of Fundy, for example).  LL could probably get away with ignoring some of those complications in the case of tides, but at the cost of some really unrealistic behavior with "normal" short-period waves.

[Drayke Newall]

7 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

And because items like the Crystal Frost "water prim", which have been around for quite a while in one form or another, are fine for parcel-level applications but not for the complex network of public and private waterways in SL A 3D water solution would have to work not only across large regions (think the Blake Sea) but also seamlessly with all the public and privately-owned water areas around them. Linden water does that today because it is not a "thing" but a rendering effect applied by servers across the entire grid. 

Um... you do realise that second vid I posted where the water is moving up and down is not a water prim but actual Linden Water dont you?

So you think that water is the same as what you posted? OK then, explain how it works in Linden Water as well then?

As per the TPV creators comment: Any object with the tag #SPLOOSH in the description will interact with sim water (AKA Linden Water) and water prims, making waves as it moves.

But sure, keep thinking that this is just a sculpt prim with a script in it to tell the object to change the sculpt texture when touched. 🙄

Edited July 10, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Rolig Loon]

6 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Um... you do realise that second vid I posted where the water is moving up and down is not a water prim but actual Linden Water dont you?

No, actually. I took the label "water prim" at its face value.  My mistake.  Sorry.  😉

[Drayke Newall]

6 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Because the simulation is run server side.

Waves would be part of the simulation, you can make your viewer look as pretty as you want but for a wave to be usable (objects float and ride on it) then it's part of the simulation: server side.

No waves are not part of the simulation just as that video posted shows - Linden Water having waves. It is a rendered effect that is applied viewer side. Objects that float use a script to 'float' on Linden Water which is the only part that the simulator processes.

Just like that avatar (its alpha stage hence why the avatar is a cube) can move linden water to create a ripple or wave effect so can any object, even if it utilises a float script like boats do.

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Rolig Loon said:

No, actually. I took the label "water prim" at its face value.  My mistake.  Sorry.  😉

All good, I didn't explain it in detail. The TPV creator has made the water two ways using the Unity KWS Water Asset.

First, Linden Water is fully interactable by both avatars and objects. So if any object with a specific 'sploosh' description tag in it moves across Linden Water it will cause ripples, wake etc. The Linden water also has dynamic real waves and ripple effect with the video I posted only showing the low quality water for 'low performance machines' as per the TPV creators notes on the video. The sploosh tag and the impact it has on the water ripple wise etc, is also affected by the object size. So the larger the object the larger the affect on the water.

Second, they have created a system where a normal prim can be rezzed and then a specific tag (waterbox) placed in the description. Any person using the Crystal Frost viewer will see that prim as dynamic Linden Water, same texture etc and it will be interactive as well per above. Any person not using the Crystal Frost viewer will see a simple blue water prim like we have now with pools etc.

The tags in the description are only there to tell the viewer that the prim is 'Linden Water' or to tell the viewer to render waves, wake, ripple's, etc if needed. Everything is rendered on the viewer side and not server. This means that 'lag' from the water, waves, etc., is based solely on computer performance and the viewer code.

[Love Zhaoying]

Catching up on this thread, it seems the tide has turned, but I'm out of my depth.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

Be nice to have flash floods and huge storm surges!

[AmeliaJ08]

11 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

No waves are not part of the simulation just as that video posted shows - Linden Water having waves. It is a rendered effect that is applied viewer side. Objects that float use a script to 'float' on Linden Water which is the only part that the simulator processes.

Just like that avatar (its alpha stage hence why the avatar is a cube) can move linden water to create a ripple or wave effect so can any object, even if it utilises a float script like boats do.

If you wanted your wave to be useful then it is a simulation run server side.

You can make your own client-side visual effects if you wish but no script (eg. a surfboard) could interact with any client side effect and your wave would not exist to anyone else.

 

[Katherine Heartsong]

12 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Catching up on this thread, it seems the tide has turned, but I'm out of my depth.

Dad?

[Missy Starchild]

I don't care for SL water anyway, I just set it to transparent and that's that. SL already chugs enough and we don't really need something hardly anyone will notice making it struggle even harder.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Missy Starchild

[JeromFranzic]

22 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Maybe something that could be experimented on in private regions though, I know Opensim has tides which are quite basic and just adjust the water height over a defined length of time (and a beacon announces current height for scripts to use to adjust the z of objects on water) but they work quite well.

One of the few reasons why I love being in Open Sim... should try to catch myself surfing there sometime and photograph it

[Drayke Newall]

11 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

If you wanted your wave to be useful then it is a simulation run server side.

That's nice. I live in the real world not a fantasy world where LL actually care. They have been asked to do such things since, oh I dont know, 2007ish and have stated plain and simply they will never touch Linden Water other than what it is now. Just like they refuse to re-add back the cloud generation system that was part of windlight in 2006 when they acquired it and would be great for flight simulation, or the storm, rain and fog system that was removed that would be good for both sailing and flight simulation. Just like wanting a water prim to add to pools, lakes or skyboxes has been asked for for about the same time, yet they have constantly said no.

So you keep on dreaming for those. I will take the next best thing and rely on a TPV creator that cares to actually make something that has been asked for for over 15 years to make it happen - at least in some form. Not LL.

11 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

You can make your own client-side visual effects if you wish but no script (eg. a surfboard) could interact with any client side effect and your wave would not exist to anyone else.

Yet, the OP specifically said he didn't care about surfer waves. They asked whether it is possible for 'swells, waves and chop (not surfer waves) for realism in sailing'. That is to say, what I posted. So sorry that I responded to the question asked by the OP. 🙄

[Perrie Juran]

1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

I will take the next best thing and rely on a TPV creator that cares to actually make something that has been asked for for over 15 years to make it happen - at least in some form. Not LL.

A TPV could do it but it would more than likely be disallowed by LL under the Shared Experience doctrine.

The effects in the videos you posted are awesome. I do however wonder about continuity across multiple Regions in places like the Blake Sea.

[Drayke Newall]

27 minutes ago, Perrie Juran said:

A TPV could do it but it would more than likely be disallowed by LL under the Shared Experience doctrine.

As far as I am aware this applies only if the viewer does something that alters the experience of someone not using the viewer itself. For example, make it so that something rezed is only seen by that viewer. That is why Firestorm was allowed to keep parcel windlight (until EEP) or RLV is allowed, god rays, posers etc. All of those 'features' are not available to all viewers but allowed.

If for instance the water prim feature in the Crystal Frost viewer only showed that prim in crystal frost and the other viewers didn't see anything (prim not visible at all), then that would be 'affecting someone's experience' as they cannot see an object unless they download Crystal Frost. The fact that the water prim feature in Crystal Frost shows an actual water coloured prim in other viewers means that those that dont choose to use the crystal frost viewer are not negatively impacted as they see what they have always been able to see. A flat prim with a water texture. The only thing the crystal frost viewer does is change the look of that water prim and how it behaves.

27 minutes ago, Perrie Juran said:

The effects in the videos you posted are awesome. I do however wonder about continuity across multiple Regions in places like the Blake Sea.

I agree, it is still very alpha stage as it is literally a rebuild of the entire engine so it will be a waiting game to see or a matter of asking Bunny the creator as to whether it works well.

[Perrie Juran]

29 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

As far as I am aware this applies only if the viewer does something that alters the experience of someone not using the viewer itself. For example, make it so that something rezed is only seen by that viewer. That is why Firestorm was allowed to keep parcel windlight (until EEP) or RLV is allowed, god rays, posers etc. All of those 'features' are not available to all viewers but allowed.

There was a certain ex-Linden who squashed a couple of ideas under the guise of the Shared Experience doctrine. Personally I felt that he was just using it as an excuse. So I sometimes wonder about the doctrines application.

[RangiUtu]

Speaking of real clouds, the Cool VL Viewer will render a cloud deck for VFR on top, or simulated IFR approaches using the HSI HUD which, when set to the proper mode, will indeed give horizontal and vertical guidance to the runway like an ILS. That viewer still works if you want to use it for that. It actually looks better than the photo because I had my draw distance a bit low. Lower the vis by adding fog and you'll be in deep. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by RangiUtu

[RangiUtu]

On 7/12/2023 at 10:52 AM, Drayke Newall said:

That's nice. I live in the real world not a fantasy world where LL actually care. They have been asked to do such things since, oh I dont know, 2007ish and have stated plain and simply they will never touch Linden Water other than what it is now. Just like they refuse to re-add back the cloud generation system that was part of windlight in 2006 when they acquired it and would be great for flight simulation, or the storm, rain and fog system that was removed that would be good for both sailing and flight simulation. Just like wanting a water prim to add to pools, lakes or skyboxes has been asked for for about the same time, yet they have constantly said no.

So you keep on dreaming for those. I will take the next best thing and rely on a TPV creator that cares to actually make something that has been asked for for over 15 years to make it happen - at least in some form. Not LL.

Yet, the OP specifically said he didn't care about surfer waves. They asked whether it is possible for 'swells, waves and chop (not surfer waves) for realism in sailing'. That is to say, what I posted. So sorry that I responded to the question asked by the OP. 🙄

See my above post on the cloud issue workaround. The things you mentioned would've been awesome. Scroll down for downloads: http://sldev.free.fr/

Edited July 15, 2023 by RangiUtu

[Drayke Newall]

15 hours ago, RangiUtu said:

Speaking of real clouds, the Cool VL Viewer will render a cloud deck for VFR on top, or simulated IFR approaches using the HSI HUD which, when set to the proper mode, will indeed give horizontal and vertical guidance to the runway like an ILS. That viewer still works if you want to use it for that. It actually looks better than the photo because I had my draw distance a bit low. Lower the vis by adding fog and you'll be in deep. 

If those clouds shown there are rendered by the viewer for that specific scenario (and not a particle effect from a hud), it looks to be the clouds LL removed that existed in SL many moons ago. At least their appearance seems to be the same. 

Basically, pre windlight days to a little past, second life's viewer had its own generated clouds. These clouds were not generated server side but strictly by the viewer itself, so if someone turned them off it wouldn't affect another persons experience if they had them on. Similar to how the water is rendered in the Crystal Frost viewer I mentioned. These clouds were togglable, however, were removed from Second Life ages ago because they would cause a mere 5-10fps drop if used (on 2013 computer tech mind you) - 5-10!, that's the fps loss of having the chat window open in the viewer now. 

The windlight clouds I was talking about were integrated into windlight which LL bought and we use now with EEP. LL just decided however to never introduce the cloud, blizzard, dust or rain systems in windlight into SL of which were and still are top quality systems. Consequently, we have to rely on laggy particle and temp prim effects to get the same result. Now, given EEP (windlight update which still uses windlight) has been released and these removed functions not added, I think it is a case of LL just dont know how to add them back in. The actual windlight volumetric clouds are shown in the below vid.

Now, what is sad is to compare the above Nimble clouds from 2006 which LL bought the rights to and have had since 2007 and compare it to MS flight simulator 2020 Ultra setting clouds. The nimble clouds look, on par with MS flight simulator 2020. So LL have a tech that is graphically comparable to near Ultra settings of a modern AAA flight sim (certainly of the quality of very high), is stated by WindwardMark in their demonstrations of the cloud system to not be lag intensive, yet Linden Lab simply cant be bothered using it. Here is the comparison below of which I have made the MS FS2020 quality to match the video 360p quality of nimbles video, however, keep in mind the nimble cloud video quality is compressed further due to being so old so isn't a true comparison.

It comes back to this whole water topic you started. The tech is all in LL's hands to use and SL could be comparable to modern games. Linden Lab however just have never understood why they should.