When you are ripped off by a creator

[Aethelwine]

I am afraid the buyer beware at your own risk is the way Linden Lab operates, it seems to be a USA thing. No or weak consumer protection laws compared to Europe. I recall similar situations in the past with dances, in particular with the at the time biggest seller of dance packed intans. They left SL for whatever reason but left their large stores around selling empty boxes for at least a year. The creator of the intan tried to get the store shut down without timely success. For a year they were taking substantial payments from customers for empty boxes. Threads on the forums censored for naming and shaming, tickets complaining closed because of it being a resident to resident dispute.

That just seems to be the way business is expected to be done in the USA.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Aethelwine

[steeljane42]

14 hours ago, Michael Blackwood said:

Very honestly - and I know that doesn't exactly help in this very situation, but - honestly, this kind of stuff is why I shop on MP only. And always have.
I only ever buy something inworld if it's either cheap at an event, where I don't care about my 60 or so L$ if they go lost, or I don't find a suitable product I need and have to resort to buying inworld. But I avoid it like the plague.

Hopefully you do realize that it's not any different on the MP and you're limiting yourself (depends on what kind of stuff you shop for, though) a great deal as so many great creators either don't have MP stores at all or haven't updated theirs for years.

Shopping on the MP won't help you if the product is broken, if it's not an actual product listed (either by mistake or otherwise). I suppose you can leave a bad review no one cares about to feel better. But it won't help you to get the product assuming you'd contact merchant just like the OP did before leaving said bad review. And in case creator leaves SL and decides to disable their store for one reason or another and delists everything, you won't be able to get a redeliver either (it's always a good idea to just keep the original box anyway).

At the end MP is not any different from any other vending system, except with a terrible UI, terrible search algorithms since recent "improvements", poor choice that is plaqued by keywords spam and countless FP retextures listings, and fake reviews. The rest is all the same and "buyer beware" applies to it all not any less than to in-world shopping.

[Qie Niangao]

18 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

Shopping on the MP won't help you if the product is broken, if it's not an actual product listed (either by mistake or otherwise). I suppose you can leave a bad review no one cares about to feel better.

To hear the merchants mitch and boan about a negative Marketplace review, you'd think it was the end of the world. Personally, I abhor everything about the Marketplace but there is that one thing: it's possible to share feedback with other potential buyers. It's kind of inexcusable that Marketplace and in-world purchases don't use a common mechanism for redelivery , feedback, gifting, etc.—especially now that the Lab has already owned Casper for months and months. Meanwhile the "web" Lindens are shifting obsolete deck chairs around Marketplace as if that could justify their salaries.

There is a third party forum where there's no Linden prohibition against "naming and shaming" nor sharing private communications. Not that I'm recommending either of those actions, nor suggesting there'd be more than a handful of folks seeing anything said there. It just exists (again).

Instead, a support ticket might be worth filing, concisely and dispassionately describing the situation and history of notifying the merchant. That's assuming the L$ transaction is confirmed and can be cited, and that it's been at least a couple months of attempting to reach that merchant. This won't get anybody's money back, but rather the point would be to disable the vendor that's taking money without delivering product, at least until it can be repaired.

I have no idea who the merchant is in this case, but I've recently had no-response communications with several creators who are seriously clueless about how to stock their vendors with product that can be distributed successfully. I've learned to just take it as part of SL, no point getting exercised about it. A large share of the time it's due to permissions errors which are far too easy to make (and why everything—and any change to anything—must be tested with an alt).

[Ina Fairport]

11 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

I am afraid the buyer beware at your own risk is the way Linden Lab operates, it seems to be a USA thing. No or weak consumer protection laws compared to Europe. I recall similar situations in the past with dances, in particular with the at the time biggest seller of dance packed intans. They left SL for whatever reason but left their large stores around selling empty boxes for at least a year. The creator of the intan tried to get the store shut down without timely success. For a year they were taking substantial payments from customers for empty boxes. Threads on the forums censored for naming and shaming, tickets complaining closed because of it being a resident to resident dispute.

That just seems to be the way business is expected to be done in the USA.

I remember that very well.  The shop used to be very good but suddenly the owner started to sell empty boxes.
 

[Randall Ahren]

17 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

I am afraid the buyer beware at your own risk is the way Linden Lab operates, it seems to be a USA thing. 

I  thought buyer beware was a European custom, originating during Roman times, which is why it's often stated in Latin: Caveat emptor.

[Aethelwine]

On 5/13/2023 at 2:26 AM, Randall Ahren said:

I  thought buyer beware was a European custom, originating during Roman times, which is why it's often stated in Latin: Caveat emptor.

Post World War 2 consumer protection laws started to appear in europe and across the globe. Caveat Emptor is a fairly alien concept to people born since then. 

Linden Lab's approach my first encounter of it, and it has cost me and many others more money than I would have liked.

[Salt Peppermint]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:16 AM, SophieWillows said:

Wow, I do wonder why people people are so concerned in telling me off when its me that has spent the money and not recieved

 

it's always a matter of "tone". and in a text, it's important how things are phrased. The issue people have is how you implied that you have been ripped off. Being "ripped off" menas is done purposely and done maliciously. In 99% of delivery issues it's not inentionally at all. And as many many have mentioned before, creators have lives aside from SL, sometimes they can't log in for a few days in a row or even longer. Patience is the key as is being polite and kind. 

[Sid Nagy]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:24 AM, Qie Niangao said:

There is a third party forum where there's no Linden prohibition against "naming and shaming" nor sharing private communications. Not that I'm recommending either of those actions, nor suggesting there'd be more than a handful of folks seeing anything said there. It just exists (again).

Naming and shaming threads never ever solve a thing. They're only good for drama and entertainment.
They are only fun to read, when the merchant shows up in such a thread as well and the mud throwing goes on for pages and pages.
I think the last time that ever happened is at least 5 years ago. 😟

On 5/12/2023 at 11:24 AM, Qie Niangao said:

 (and why everything—and any change to anything—must be tested with an alt).

The merchant is the alt too. So the same person.
A good check of everything before one starts selling is more than enough. I've been a merchant during large parts of the last 16 years now, never needed an alt for permissions testing. Sometimes for script testing.
And I never do anything essential when I'm tired. Tomorrow is another day.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Aethelwine]

16 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Naming and shaming threads never ever solve a thing. They're only good for drama and entertainment.
They are only fun to read, when the merchant shows up in such a thread as well and the mud throwing goes on for pages and pages.
I think the last time that ever happened is at least 5 years ago. 😟

The merchant is the alt too. So the same person.
A good check of everything before one starts selling is more than enough. I've been a merchant during large parts of the last 16 years now, never needed an alt for permissions testing. Sometimes for script testing.
And I never do anything essential when I'm tired. Tomorrow is another day.

Shaming serves no constructive purpose, but naming does. In the example I gave (and I can think of at least one similar with a dance ball/hud seller) the naming would have at least been some notice that might have prevented many empty box sales. These were products sold from previously reliable vendors with solid reputations, and each item between 1.5KL$ and 20KL$. I imagine a lot of people suffered because of that. 

There is no need for shaming they probably suffered some personal tragedy. Shaming isn't productive.

But a Caveat Emptor policy without any means for consumers to warn one another makes every purchase a gamble.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

A good check of everything before one starts selling is more than enough. I've been a merchant during large parts of the last 16 years now, never needed an alt for permissions testing. Sometimes for script testing.

You're smarter than I am then. I quit selling shortly after I started SL, but just handing off copies of stuff for others to use more often than not I leave something with a restrictive permission buried in some embedded asset. And any time I try to do anything the least bit tricky I have to consult my slam bit crib sheet and test it with an alt more than once before I get it right.

The thing is, the creators I work with have similar problems, especially when they package something differently than they do their usual products, so I don't think I'm the only one who finds permissions a maze of twisty little passages, all different.

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

You're smarter than I am then.

Or I sell easier to control stuff, that is a possibility too of course. 😁

[AmeliaJ08]

On 5/12/2023 at 8:35 AM, Aethelwine said:

I am afraid the buyer beware at your own risk is the way Linden Lab operates, it seems to be a USA thing. No or weak consumer protection laws compared to Europe. I recall similar situations in the past with dances, in particular with the at the time biggest seller of dance packed intans. They left SL for whatever reason but left their large stores around selling empty boxes for at least a year. The creator of the intan tried to get the store shut down without timely success. For a year they were taking substantial payments from customers for empty boxes. Threads on the forums censored for naming and shaming, tickets complaining closed because of it being a resident to resident dispute.

That just seems to be the way business is expected to be done in the USA.

Yeah there's a crazy lack of protection for buyers on SL and it's weird that it hasn't been addressed. As you say, disputes are treated as "resident to resident" when really it's a dispute not dissimilar to the ones eBay has to handle and given we're talking real money here the approach LL takes is very lax.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

When I'm on my phone, I keep seeing, When you are Ripped.. I almost posted women body building image earlier today.. Then realized it's something else.. hehehe

[EliseAnne85]

On 5/17/2023 at 1:23 PM, AmeliaJ08 said:

Yeah there's a crazy lack of protection for buyers on SL and it's weird that it hasn't been addressed. As you say, disputes are treated as "resident to resident" when really it's a dispute not dissimilar to the ones eBay has to handle and given we're talking real money here the approach LL takes is very lax.

 

Their Terms and Conditions states in the first paragraph though, very clearly, that if you don't agree with their policy, you should decline.  

If you do not so agree, you should decline this Second Life Policy, in which case you are prohibited from accessing or using Second Life.

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/second-life-terms-and-conditions

Edited May 18, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[AmeliaJ08]

15 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Their Terms and Conditions states in the first paragraph though, very clearly, that if you don't agree with their policy, you should decline.  

If you do not so agree, you should decline this Second Life Policy, in which case you are prohibited from accessing or using Second Life.

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/second-life-terms-and-conditions

Okay? not sure what that has to do with what I said. LL policy on this is very lax and quite unique in the industry, that's all I'm saying.

[EliseAnne85]

2 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said:

Okay? not sure what that has to do with what I said. LL policy on this is very lax and quite unique in the industry, that's all I'm saying.

You said, in your post above quoting you "there's a crazy lack of protection for buyers on SL and it's weird that it hasn't been addressed".  

It's been addressed as far as I am concerned in their TOS that's why I copied and pasted it.  

You have to take any concern you have with an item to LL directly if you have a problem.  That's why I told the OP to report it.  They, don't, however, let people know the outcome of every single case.  Items being pulled for DCMA infringement is the biggest problem in SL.

What problems people generally run into with products on SL...I've not had any, other my blunder to rush into buying my first mesh heads which ended up not being what I really wanted until I finally bought my third.  But, I haven't had any problem except one who had the wrong perms but I got over it.  

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Arielle Popstar]

7 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

You said, in your post above quoting you "there's a crazy lack of protection for buyers on SL and it's weird that it hasn't been addressed".  

It's been addressed as far as I am concerned in their TOS that's why I copied and pasted it.  

You have to take any concern you have with an item to LL directly if you have a problem.  That's why I told the OP to report it.  They, don't, however, let people know the outcome of every single case.  Items being pulled for DCMA infringement is the biggest problem in SL.

What problems people generally run into with products on SL...I've not had any, other my blunder to rush into buying my first mesh heads which ended up not being what I really wanted until I finally bought my third.  But, I haven't had any problem except one who had the wrong perms but I got over it.  

 

 

Think the point the @AmeliaJ08 is making is that Second life is not very supportive of consumer rights. The ToS can say anything it likes but it is not by any stretch in line with r/l laws in many jurisdictions. Even other VW's are better in that regard.

[EliseAnne85]

59 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Think the point the @AmeliaJ08 is making is that Second life is not very supportive of consumer rights. The ToS can say anything it likes but it is not by any stretch in line with r/l laws in many jurisdictions. Even other VW's are better in that regard.

I don't think it's going to change though, Arielle, for the most part.  

One good thing that you alerted us too is that uploaders of mesh will have to have PIOF now.  

For one example, if LL changed and allowed residents returns of their money, that could and would most definitely be abused on the other end of the spectrum with people wearing it *and* then wanting a refund.  I think this would drive away creators until we are making all our items ourselves because it would be so abused. 

The other problem is DCMA, if it goes into litigation it could take a long time to resolve and LL doesn't alert as to all those goings-on.   

In all my years here which is way before MP even existed, I think I've had one bad transaction where the perms were wrong.  

The OP could have looked at her account to see if the transaction actually went through.  That we don't know because she got upset and left.  

But, what would you suggest that would be better than what it is now?  

Edited May 19, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[SophieWillows]

" The OP could have looked at her account to see if the transaction actually went through.  That we don't know because she got upset and left.  " actually another incorrect assumption, I have not left. Yes the transaction went through, yes I tried redelivery, yes I joined the group, yes I sent notecards, yes I sent  Im's , yes I relogged, Yes i filed a ticket,  I had done all of these things even BEFORE I made the original post. And guess what- its now over 2 weeks and I still have not got the product or any response at all from the creator.  What I have done is just stopped talking about it. I will update you all if I ever get a refund/response, or the actual  dances. I am certainly not holding my breath!!

[EliseAnne85]

14 hours ago, SophieWillows said:

" The OP could have looked at her account to see if the transaction actually went through.  That we don't know because she got upset and left.  " actually another incorrect assumption, I have not left. Yes the transaction went through, yes I tried redelivery, yes I joined the group, yes I sent notecards, yes I sent  Im's , yes I relogged, Yes i filed a ticket,  I had done all of these things even BEFORE I made the original post. And guess what- its now over 2 weeks and I still have not got the product or any response at all from the creator.  What I have done is just stopped talking about it. I will update you all if I ever get a refund/response, or the actual  dances. I am certainly not holding my breath!!

Okay, Qie in a roundabout way asked if you had verified if the transaction went through and since you were answering everyone else and didn't answer, I assumed you might have just been too upset and left (the thread is what I meant).  And, you joined the group and asked in group chat if anyone could help you as your item was not delivered?  If you did that too, and got no response and still no response from the creator...it's all speculation from here on out with things involving that the creator or store owner is simply not there right now.  It could be what Gwin said on Page One, the creator has taken ill or died, and the other is that they could eventually return and take care of the issue.  Sorry, this happened.  

[Aethelwine]

In cases where in world vendors have run dry and are still making sales I would have thought it would be worth Linden Lab investigating, and if verified turning the boxes off whilst they contact the vendor to find out what is going on. Dismissing reports as resident to resident disputes and doing nothing increases the number of people losing money and losing faith in the way the economy works.

[EliseAnne85]

7 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

In cases where in world vendors have run dry and are still making sales I would have thought it would be worth Linden Lab investigating, and if verified turning the boxes off whilst they contact the vendor to find out what is going on. 

I agree that LL should shut the vendor down if a) they checked the seller received money for an item, and b) checked the person's inventory that the item was not delivered, and then c) alert the seller their vendor is not working.   And, if LL checked the vendor dispensing supposed goods and the person did not receive their item, I will go so far as to say - return the resident's money AND shut the vendor down.  But, this IS the reason I told the OP to contact LL as they are the only one's who can see inside the vendor and see what's going on in there.

However, my opinion doesn't mean they will do it.  But, I agree with you on that.  How many people on staff they have to do this, I don't know, nor do I know how many employees it would take.

I think this is fairly rare thing.

Most sellers say 'Since I provide a DEMO, no refund'.  Or some say exchanges only.  I will exchange an item if a person feels unhappy with their item at no extra cost to them and no questions asked.  You know, in all my years offering exchanges, not one person asked (for an exchange).  In case of vendor problems or script problems with the vendor not being configured correctly, yeah, just shut it down.

Edited May 22, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[SophieWillows]

So here is an update. The seller has been online, so is not dead at least, he was online  for 15 mins and has ignored me totally.  I am still out of pocket by 3300 lindens. If you want to know which seller/creator this is   ask me privately I would be happy to tell you so no one else gets ripped off. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, SophieWillows said:

So here is an update. The seller has been online, so is not dead at least, he was online  for 15 mins and has ignored me totally.  I am still out of pocket by 3300 lindens. If you want to know which seller/creator this is   ask me privately I would be happy to tell you so no one else gets ripped off. 

If they have been ill, they may not have been able to be on for very long. Sometimes you have to work up to being on long enough to help people so maybe give them a little more time, just in case. 

I'm only saying this because it happened to me a couple of years ago. I'm not saying don't try to contact them, only saying don't pester them because if they have been ill, doing so will only delay getting the help you need, if you get it at all.