Should more game elements be added to Second Life?

[EliseAnne85]

47 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

For one fishing game 7seas you can fish up items and can even trade those items you get if you want to-I think that used to be a bigger thing in the past though.

I don't know a simpler way to explain it but they really aren't even similar-except that some might call them both games. That's pretty much where their similarities end though. 

7 Seas is the only one I know of.  But, you have to buy the pole and there are options with poles and then you can trade the fish or other misc. items just like one can trade in Gacha.  That's what I meant by similar (the trading).

I wasn't talking about the free fishing.  

Gacha may even be a little like breedables too, as one can sell their "surprise" breedable and may get a rare.  At least, that's how breedables used to work.  I have no idea how breedables work now.  

But, I see similarities in all of these.  A chance to trade, and with some, a chance to sell what was or is essentially a surprise.  

Edited April 17, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Ayashe Ninetails]

8 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

7 Seas is the only one I know of.

Magic Fishing is the one I used to do. It used to be fairly popular (and there are still about 18,000 people in the group), but I have no idea how active that one is these days. 

Was fun, though, but yeah, mostly used as a traffic generator, even though it was a pretty social experience overall and a decent way to earn a few Lindens. I think you could also raise worms or something...or farm, or...something.

https://secondlife.com/destination/second-farm

[Istelathis]

6 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Magic Fishing is the one I used to do

I really liked magic fishing, but found virtual fishing to be the least expensive out of all of them, and it provided the most level playing field when it comes to earning linden as there were so few boosts one could use, and I don't believe you could purchase upgrades to your rods.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Istelathis said:

I really liked magic fishing, but found virtual fishing to be the least expensive out of all of them, and it provided the most level playing field when it comes to earning linden as there were so few boosts one could use, and I don't believe you could purchase upgrades to your rods.

I don't think I've seen that one. 

Ooo you know what would be fun? I used do a lot of fishing in RL as a kid on charter boats. Pay for a ticket for the morning, afternoon, or evening/night ride out into the bay and they'd handle all the equipment/bait/cleaning your catches, etc. Little cafe on board and everything. Was a lot of fun.

We need boat fishing in SL! Don't ask me how it'd work. We just need it. 😄 Unless we already have it... 👀

[Istelathis]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

We need boat fishing in SL! Don't ask me how it'd work. We just need it. 😄 Unless we already have it... 👀

I think you would really like N-O fishing.  It is a pretty addictive fishing game in SL, where you can fish practically anywhere that water is present with no buoys required.  There is no linden involved, but it is a very active fishing community that holds regular competitions.  I don't play it as often as I used to, but I would often go fishing while out exploring on my boat, I even fished a little at SLB a couple of years ago 🤗

[Ayashe Ninetails]

12 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I think you would really like N-O fishing.  It is a pretty addictive fishing game in SL, where you can fish practically anywhere that water is present with no buoys required.  There is no linden involved, but it is a very active fishing community that holds regular competitions.  I don't play it as often as I used to, but I would often go fishing while out exploring on my boat, I even fished a little at SLB a couple of years ago 🤗

That sounds fun! I keep saying I'll get back into fishing one of these days, but then I forget I ever said it. 😄It's always been a really good time.

[Adam Spark]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:53 PM, Bree Giffen said:

I was watching a video on this crypto world thing. I forgot the name of it but it had virtual real estate bought with crypto, NFTs, etc. This isn't a topic about all of that but what I saw was the type of content they had inside their virtual world and it was terrible. Second Life is way better. It had me thinking about the resources available in SL, scripting, control inputs, etc. that allow content to be created, specifically gaming content, and I was wondering what everyone thinks about the need for more resources to service this type of content? I know we have content. We have racecars and tracks and we have sailing and fishing but do we have the ability to make things much more game-like? In the crypto world they didn't have much interactive content and though SL has interactivity I think we need more.

I've seen some highly interactive, very sophisticated games in SL. I think LSL allows us to do about anything. The issue, in my opinion, is whether the content can keep a region running smoothly. I don't think there is very much we cannot literally do. I think the platform serves that. Your imagination, I think, is really your limit. I don't think that is just an ad slogan. The question isn't is it creatable. The question is, would it have high value on this lag-prone platform?

[Qie Niangao]

29 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

We need boat fishing in SL! Don't ask me how it'd work. We just need it. 😄 Unless we already have it... 👀

Ages ago I made a "hobo" style pontoon fishin' boat rezzing from a Zindra dock and containing it's own 7 Seas fishing server. It still rezzes from that dock and (I just tried) still serves fish out on the high seas. That kind of laid-back fishing was very popular for a while—I even was asked to install a fishing server on the dock at the Cartel Hangout at some point—then the gamified, competitive version seemed to catch on, and I don't know what happened after that. 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Ages ago I made a "hobo" style pontoon fishin' boat rezzing from a Zindra dock and containing it's own 7 Seas fishing server. It still rezzes from that dock and (I just tried) still serves fish out on the high seas. That kind of laid-back fishing was very popular for a while—I even was asked to install a fishing server on the dock at the Cartel Hangout at some point—then the gamified, competitive version seemed to catch on, and I don't know what happened after that. 

So that's something that could definitely be done and expanded upon! 

I forgot about the gaming staples like fishing, bowling, golf/mini golf, billiards, etc. I know most of that exists already, but if there were a way to make it more...ya know...more? Might get a few more people doing it here and there.

[ItHadToComeToThis]

On 4/14/2023 at 7:23 PM, Bree Giffen said:

I was watching a video on this crypto world thing. I forgot the name of it but it had virtual real estate bought with crypto, NFTs, etc. This isn't a topic about all of that but what I saw was the type of content they had inside their virtual world and it was terrible. Second Life is way better. It had me thinking about the resources available in SL, scripting, control inputs, etc. that allow content to be created, specifically gaming content, and I was wondering what everyone thinks about the need for more resources to service this type of content? I know we have content. We have racecars and tracks and we have sailing and fishing but do we have the ability to make things much more game-like? In the crypto world they didn't have much interactive content and though SL has interactivity I think we need more.

I want more keys to use in llTakeControls and it baffles me why they just won't do it. Yes, we have gestures, but having actual keys we can control would be very helpful. For instance 1234567890, Shift, Control would be a great set of keys to be able to use. You would have many more sets of things you could do with that in terms of a game, such as whether the key is pressed, released or held. Gestures are good but, you can't detect key press and release with them.

 

[ItHadToComeToThis]

On 4/14/2023 at 10:38 PM, Qie Niangao said:

There's MadPea.

MadPea is a copy pasta company though. It's seldom they come out with anything truly new, it's just a rinse wash repeat of the same process over and over. The only thing that changes is the story and some of the puzzles, they aren't exactly groundbreaking or leading the way in terms of game development.

MadPea games and stories generally go like this:

Uh oh...someone died....who is the killer....theres the killer

and sometimes like this:

This is a room, its a secure room, now you have to escape!

or if you are lucky at halloween...

OH THERES A GHOST!...uh oh...someone died....who is the killer....theres the killer

[Qie Niangao]

30 minutes ago, ItHadToComeToThis said:

MadPea games and stories generally go like this:

Yeah, the "games" are basically tarted-up hunts, with some narrative to string them along.

I'd like to think a compelling narrative is a defining feature of modern videogames, but it doesn't seem to get much play in this thread.

There must be some disciplined theory of what makes a "game" (not "game theory" which is a whole different discipline), but I wonder how far we want to push the defining envelope. SL had a fascination with hunts for a while, which are kind of a shopping puzzle game, I guess.

How are toys related to games? SL has the "playing with dolls" game: outfit construction, dancing, poseball hopping, avatar photography/machinima. And the "playing with blocks" game: building with prims, arranging mesh, terraforming, landscape photography. But those clearly are the opposite of the OP's interest in adding "game elements" to SL.

My money is still on the enchantment of narrative for "game" success in SL.

[Drayke Newall]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

My money is still on the enchantment of narrative for "game" success in SL.

That's the key. I dont think any person, myself included is expecting SL to be the next COD, WoW or Civilization. I would love a ready player one experience where i can be sitting in a club and then hop to a game of COD with friends all in SL but it isn't going to happen. That is where Epic are targeting their metaverse to.

There are plenty of games that could easily adapt to SL to improve retention, socialisation and things to do etc, but the current scripting, and game functions dont allow for any of it as per my previous post.

A simple look on itch.io or steam shows for example how popular visual novels or visual novels with simple questing, shooting, adventure elements etc are. Can this be done in SL to any form of satisfaction? No.

Here are a two examples of games that would be good for SL and that are simple that 'could' work in SL if the current tools are updated including pathfinding, animesh, temp attachments, experience tools, etc.

• 3D Visual novel:
  • I tp to a visual novel region and as soon as I arrive there my avatar automatically changes (temp attachment) to the main character look.
  • Any other person that tp's there to play as well is automatically hidden so I can not see them or interact with them (unless the visual novel creator wants that form of interaction)
  • Upon start, an inbuilt viewer (or plugin) shows a ui (non hud attachments) where I can interact with menu's on screen similar to modern visual novel games (any one playing madpea games should know how bad hud attachments for games are) not to mention controls.
  • I can grab quests, interact with npc's that move and talk properly to give quests, interact etc.

Can this visual novel be done? No, Even though a visual novel is the simplest 'game'. Firstly, temp attachments dont work like that, secondly experience tools cannot hide other avatars or stop interaction with them (ie no public chat), thirdly, we only have huds and such hud scripting is impossible not to mention the lag they would cause and fourthly, animesh doesn't allow for highly interactive or immersive actions and nor does the audio system i.e. no large file voice acting, not movement based on situation etc.

• Party game/obstacle course like Fall Guys.
  • I tp to region and queue with random other people until the round starts
  • I move around the course using my avatar and animations like slide on belly etc
  • I slide through, cream, jam, jump over swinging, twirling obstacles etc
  • I can get blown off the edgy by wind, moving balls that I need to dodge etc
  • I can pick up items and dynamically interact with them etc
  • I have to reach the end in a certain time and if not or fall off the course I get moved to the start or another zone waiting for the game to begin again

Can this be done? No. Firstly, there is no queuing system, secondly avatars cannot move or function to allow sliding, rolling jumping (other than jumping way to high) or even crouching dynamically (the animation plays but your avie height is always the same solid object height). Thirdly, there is no way to blow wind onto people that pushes them or moving objects like balls may roll but no way to weigh them down so they cannot be moved my avies etc as the physics engine just doesn't work. Fourthly, you cannot pick up items and run with them without lag delays etc.

Both games or similar games would be fine for SL. Not AAA games but games that add some element of fun, socialisation, retention etc. But both are impossible in any form of fun way. Even a game like multi region Pokémon isn't possible as experience tools, whilst promised, still hasn't been upgraded to allow it.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Phil Deakins]

13 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I assume you don't mean the "plain old telephone system ("POTS")" dial-up network, when you write "internet" above?

Conversely, I would not classify anything I used on BITNET (mainframe network, universities, etc. as an outgrowth of ARPANET) as BBS's.

Oooh, you're right. BBSs did run on dialups. My mistake. In my defense, it was a very long time ago, and my memory isn't perfect, even though I had a BBS myself for a while 

 

[Phil Deakins]

13 hours ago, Istelathis said:

Well, if you really want to get technical you are correct in that some of them were on the Internet and I believe arpanet predates the first BBS.  My only experience that I possibly recall of BBS being on the internet was brief connections for messages through I think fidonet, but I'm not entirely sure if fidonet required the internet or if BBSs just exchanged the messages by dialing into one another, it has been so long now that I barely remember it though.  Most people in my area were just dialing into BBSs back in the day and it was localized. 

I hosted one myself for a few months, using renegade which was pretty fun.  I barely had any callers though, it was mostly just a fun and easy project.  Once I had access to the Internet though, the scene in my area mostly dissipated as did my BBS as I was more interested in being connected to the Internet which tied up my phoneline.

My mistake. The BBSs I knew ran on dialups, not the internet. Like you, I had one myself for a while.

See my previous post for my excuse 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[EliseAnne85]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:59 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

Creators can do better!

Creator's can do better...such as what though?

Almost everyone is saying there is a problem with lag foremost.  

Secondly, often the kind of easy and laid back sort of games some of us would like there is a problem with bots gaming the games.  I don't really want to play "violent" games.  I like the laid back stuff.  

The best way for SL to become a "game" is to release a different version of it that runs on consoles.

SL's main game, somewhat like in life, is to try to make money.  

We need that for user retention especially in this inflationary environment, but not to be farmed out by bots.  That's the second biggest problem.  People don't want to waste their time being gamed by AI systems.  We want legitimate and fair games.  

Edited April 19, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Jaylinbridges]

7 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Secondly, often the kind of easy and laid back sort of games some of us would like there is a problem with bots gaming the games

 

7 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

People don't want to waste their time being gamed by AI systems.  We want legitimate and fair games.  

Give SPECIFIC SL games that are presently controlled by "bots and AI".  What games are NOT legitimate in your personal experience.  And if you feel SL is allowing  illegitimate games and unfair games run by bots and AI - then why have you not sent ARs about those game developers and players, and submitted JIRA's to LL for violating the TOS?

Again, in case you try to selectively avoid my first question, here it is again:

Give SPECIFIC SL games that are presently controlled by "bots and AI", at this time.

The only bots and AI I know about are owned by Moles and Lindens, and they are part of the game scripting.

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Randall Ahren]

10 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

SL's main game, somewhat like in life, is to try to make money.  

Agreed. There is another main game in SL, also highly popular in life, which is to seduce as many people as possible.

Edit: The popular RL Tinder app was replicated in SL as Thundr to support the seduction game.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Randall Ahren

[Aethelwine]

Is lag and responsiveness of control inputs really the limitation some suggest in this thread? 

Competitive bike and car races involve complex manoeuvres with microsecond timing on turns 

[Jaylinbridges]

5 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

Is lag and responsiveness of control inputs really the limitation some suggest in this thread? 

I think it depends on where in the world the player is located, since UDP lag with long ping times can cause a time lag in a game, compared to those with no lag locations in the world.

I am 50 miles from the Amazon AWS cloud, and we are fiber front to end, with 25 ms hop times to AWS.  I have no detectable avatar lag with motion.

Those complaining about avatar motion control lag should state their world location and actual ping times to the LL AWS servers in Oregon.  LL decided a few years ago to not use other AWS cloud locations on other continents - because it would cost them too much.  I have heard nothing to change that bottom line financial view from LL.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Aethelwine]

To be fair after posting questioning scale of the lag problem it occurred to me that instances of little apparent lag where people are putting in fastest laps they are on relatively unoccupied regions. When avatars on the region exceed 10 or are racing in close proximity then lag is a factor.

[EliseAnne85]

16 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

 

Give SPECIFIC SL games that are presently controlled by "bots and AI".  What games are NOT legitimate in your personal experience.  And if you feel SL is allowing  illegitimate games and unfair games run by bots and AI - then why have you not sent ARs about those game developers and players, and submitted JIRA's to LL for violating the TOS?

Again, in case you try to selectively avoid my first question, here it is again:

Give SPECIFIC SL games that are presently controlled by "bots and AI", at this time.

The only bots and AI I know about are owned by Moles and Lindens, and they are part of the game scripting.

 

I did NOT say controlled, I said gamed.

By AI systems, I meant gamed also.

As some of us have talked in other threads about overall games for SL, but the fear is the farming bot systems will just take over which makes an unfair advantage.  

My post was also about an answer to creators can do better.  That's what I was responding too.  The "do better" threads about games, usually leads to farming.  Bot farming is a problem regarding games we could create to bring in new users, and interest existing users.

By AI system, I meant farm.  Bot farm specifically.

The only way to have new and exciting games is for them to be PIOF or for Subscription Members.

Look at Bitcoin for example and the Bitcoin farms run by the rich.  The little person stands little to no chance at getting any Bitcoin.

Edited April 20, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I did NOT say controlled, I said gamed.

By AI systems, I meant gamed also.

As some of us have talked in other threads about overall games for SL, but the fear is the farming bot systems will just take over which makes an unfair advantage.  

My post was also about an answer to creators can do better.  That's what I was responding too.  The "do better" threads about games, usually leads to farming.  Bot farming is a problem regarding games we could create to bring in new users, and interest existing users.

By AI system, I meant farm.  Bot farm specifically.

The only way to have new and exciting games is for them to be PIOF or for Subscription Members.

Look at Bitcoin for example and the Bitcoin farms run by the rich.  The little person stands little to no chance at getting any Bitcoin.

When I first started SL, I met a guy who used to run several avatars at once not on a bot viewer.  This was back when camping on dance pads was a thing.  He'd have 5 or 6 of them on at a time collecting Ls while his main was doing whatever.  They ALL had PIOF.   When Match Fishing came along with Ls prizes, he'd do the same thing.  When a box popped up to tell him he had a fish, it would flash in the lower toolbar to let him know to switch to that avatar.

Having PIOF will in no way keep anyone from 'gaming' a system.  Pretty sure there is nothing in the ToS that disallows running multiple avatars at once, either.  

[Love Zhaoying]

If you "game the system", then:

- It's a game!

- You are taking advantage of "gaming elements"

- You are increasing the user count, helping SL / LL Stats

- If you have PIOF on file, it means basically, you "pay for stuff" (or COULD), so you support SL / LL

- If you have multiple avatars online at once, you are efficiently utilizing the SL / LL capabilities, unused capacity, and underutilized infrastructure.

So, THANK YOU!

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If you "game the system", then:

- It's a game!

- You are taking advantage of "gaming elements"

- You are increasing the user count, helping SL / LL Stats

- If you have PIOF on file, it means basically, you "pay for stuff" (or COULD), so you support SL / LL

- If you have multiple avatars online at once, you are efficiently utilizing the SL / LL capabilities, unused capacity, and underutilized infrastructure.

So, THANK YOU!

It was a whole drama thing with the Match Fishing.  The creator even installed a "bot detector" popup.  You had to answer a question or something during the match.  It still flashed at the bottom of your screen so you'd know it was time to answer a question OR catch a fish.  The point being, you don't need a bot or a bot viewer to game anything.