superpeeve Oh my Gawd! - Totally unOfficial Pet Peeve Thread.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

It has been implemented on time. It came in de books of 2023.
Now there is only boring stuff left to do: fixing and improve things.
That doesn't bring in bonuses.
LL has a voting system for their employees. One has to be working on sexy things to stand a chance. Fixing broken stuff or improving what was wrong in the first place not so much.

Peeve: I know you have posted similar info before.  I realize this is common business practice, but you don't actually know this to be true with Linden Lab and are just being cynical, correct?

[Gabriele Graves]

28 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Peeve: Same here, but I assume that maybe I am just lucky, with all of the complaints - possibly others have frame rate issues in the Official viewer. 

Peeve: However, not many others on the Forums appear to use the official viewer so..all I can do is feel sorry for those with problems and hope that they are being addressed.

Peeve: If the problems really ARE with the Firestorm viewer, it is a little sad to me that users seem to be blaming the changes and not the viewer! (I suppose they don't know if it is just the viewer, if they only use Firestorm..)

Those are fair comments but I think the average person isn't going to know the difference of whether there is a general PBR issue or a Firestorm issue anyway.

I didn't see any speed degradation on my main SL box with the PBR alpha viewer but then I have a Nvidia RTX 3080 with 12Gb GPU memory and 32Gb system memory.  So I'm not so sure it isn't affecting anyone on LL viewer, you just might not be seeing that and that was @Scylla Rhiadra's point all along.

I guess we will see how this all plays out.  If the LL viewer had the features us FS users have come to depend on and stop keep dumbing down their viewer, there might be more users using it.
 

Edited February 14 by Gabriele Graves
Added @tag for Scylla

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Those are fair comments but I think the average person isn't going to know the difference of whether there is a general PBR issue or a Firestorm issue anyway.

I didn't see any speed degradation on my main SL box with the PBR alpha viewer but then I have a Nvidia RTX 3080 with 12Gb GPU memory and 32Gb system memory.  So I'm not so sure it isn't affecting anyone on LL viewer, you just might not be seeing that and that was Scylla's point all along.

I guess we will see how this all plays out.  If the LL viewer had the features us FS users have come to depend on and stop keep dumbing down their viewer, there might be more users using it.
 

Peeve: My line of (self-) questioning has led to an interesting possible conclusion.

Peeve: If "SL runs poorly now", then how do we know it's not the fault of the user's viewer?  The "fact" that "everybody uses Firestorm" (which is obviously patently false) may sometimes hide the truth. 

[Sid Nagy]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Peeve: I know you have posted similar info before.  I realize this is common business practice, but you don't actually know this to be true with Linden Lab and are just being cynical, correct?

 

https://lindenlab.com/careers

"Meet The Love Machine

Our unique peer appreciation tool, the Love Machine, empowers Lindens to express their gratitude for one another and reward each other with quarterly bonuses."

So working on sexy things does matter. Nobody votes for someone who worked hard all month and improved the average frame rate with 5 frames in the new PBR viewer or fixed the cash out within a few days. Me thinks one tries to avoid such assignments.

And yes, I'm often a bit sarcastic.
And sadly LL gives reasons enough for that on a regular basis.

 

Edited February 14 by Sid Nagy

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Peeve: My line of (self-) questioning has led to an interesting possible conclusion.

Peeve: If "SL runs poorly now", then how do we know it's not the fault of the user's viewer?  The "fact" that "everybody uses Firestorm" (which is obviously patently false) may sometimes hide the truth. 

It's common wisdom that most of the complaints about performance, especially around lag and slow rendering are in fact viewer side problems associated with lower end hardware, slow internet, etc.

Again, though, all the average user knows is that SL isn't working as they expect.

[Love Zhaoying]

31 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

https://lindenlab.com/careers

"Meet The Love Machine

Our unique peer appreciation tool, the Love Machine, empowers Lindens to express their gratitude for one another and reward each other with quarterly bonuses."

So working on sexy things does matter. Nobody votes for someone who worked hard all month and improved the average frame rate with 5 frames in the new PBR viewer or fixed the cash out within a few days. Me thinks one tries to avoid such assignments.

And yes, I'm often a bit sarcastic.
And sadly LL gives reasons enough for that on a regular basis.

Ok, thanks.  Your posts on this seem to be posted as "fact" and not "conjecture", so I was just checking.  Personally - I would see the "goals" as "targeted project completion dates" having nothing to do with (ETA: "voted upon" but possibly "goal-driven") bonuses, etc.  But each to his "opinion" when it comes to conjecture!

Edited February 14 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

30 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

It's common wisdom that most of the complaints about performance, especially around lag and slow rendering are in fact viewer side problems associated with lower end hardware, slow internet, etc.

Again, though, all the average user knows is that SL isn't working as they expect.

Peeve: As I recall sometimes, "experts" post "I get 100+ fps" to which "actual" experts reply, "not really".  

It's always interesting to see a technical discussion, and try to discern who actually knows what they are talking about!

Edited February 14 by Love Zhaoying

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Peeve: As I recall sometimes, "experts" post "I get 100+ fps" to which "actual" expers reply, "not really".  

It's always interesting to see a technical discussion, and try to discern who actually knows what they are talking about!

Yes, all people can really say is that their experience is different to the one a person is reporting.

[Sid Nagy]

The human eyes can't handle more than 24 fps. 24+ means flawless motion for the brain.
Hence the minimum requirement for the film industry. Mostly they shoot on 32 fps to be on the safe side.
Amateur film is shot at 24 fps sometimes even at 18 (super 8 in the past).

My SL movements are lag less whether or not on a PBR viewer. So why would I check frame rates?
I know it is above 24, otherwise my eyes\brain would complain (lag).

Edited February 14 by Sid Nagy

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

I once tried helping someone with an issue concerning a stuck animation, and was told to shut up and they should just buy better animations. And that it was final, and that was that.

I think they let 12-year-olds join, is all.

After Ed left, the support group went downhill. They became tyrants.

No, just Jodi. 🤭

I haven't needed any help in years, so I don't know who is left of the original team, if anyone.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ok, thanks.  Your posts on this seem to be posted as "fact" and not "conjecture", so I was just checking.  Personally - I would see the "goals" as "targeted project completion dates" having nothing to do with (ETA: "voted upon" but possibly "goal-driven") bonuses, etc.  But each to his "opinion" when it comes to conjecture!

The "Love Machine" is/was infamous, a system where back office employees with NO clue about in-world, could suggest "cool ideas" and then other back office employees, could vote them a fat bonus for suggesting something most of the actual customers might hate.

NEVER assume with LL, that they operate like a professional programming department in a normal corporate setting.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

NEVER assume with LL, that they operate like a professional programming department in a normal corporate setting.

I think there's a phrase something like, "perverse incentive"?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Those are fair comments but I think the average person isn't going to know the difference of whether there is a general PBR issue or a Firestorm issue anyway.

Yes, this.

Ask a group of residents in-world how they feel about PBR right now, and inevitably you'll get at least one "Pabst Blue Ribbon," and a whole lot of "?????" (I actually do this, so I know whereof I speak.)

That may change when the PBR-enabled FS goes live, but I doubt it.

4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I didn't see any speed degradation on my main SL box with the PBR alpha viewer but then I have a Nvidia RTX 3080 with 12Gb GPU memory and 32Gb system memory.  So I'm not so sure it isn't affecting anyone on LL viewer, you just might not be seeing that and that was @Scylla Rhiadra's point all along.

Again, yes! The possible impact of a nearly infinite combinations of different kinds of hardware mean it's really all but impossible to predict exactly how PBR is going to impact on any one individual.

I totally get that we can't hold back "progress" and graphics advancements on the platform merely because a hopefully smallish percentage of residents are using hardware that isn't up to scratch.

But I also reject the "they-just-need-to-get-a-better-computer" approach because it ignores the reality of the fact that many can't or won't. And whether they should or not is less relevant than the fact that that could impact upon things like concurrency.

It's in no one's best interest if we lose residents because no efforts were made to accommodate those still using 5 year old laptops.

So, some sort of balance needs to be struck here. Move us forward by all means, but provide options for those who will otherwise be left behind. And for god's sake, at least acknowledge their existence, preferably treating them without the condescension that was dripping from the voice of some of those I was talking to last night.

[Persephone Emerald]

Who is more valuable as a customer to Linden Lab, the old-timer Premium account user on a computer that's 5 years old or the newbie who usually uses their phone for social media and their newer computer to play regular video games? Who is going to spend the most money on this platform? I think IMVU users would stick here and spend money, but I'm not so sure a Fortnite or FPS player would.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Who is more valuable as a customer to Linden Lab, the old-timer Premium account user on a computer that's 5 years old or the newbie who usually uses their phone for social media and their newer computer to play regular video games? Who is going to spend the most money on this platform? I think IMVU users would stick here and spend money, but I'm not so sure a Fortnite or FPS player would.

And many of those old-timers contribute to SL in countless other ways as well. So yeah.

I've seen zero evidence that the adoption of PBR is going to lead to a sudden influx of new residents. "YAY! At last I can join SL now that they have PBR!!!!!" -- uh, not so much probably?

But there is reason to be concerned that we might lose some. Which is why I hope that the Firestorm team takes its time to fix what needs fixing in their PBR viewer: given how widely used that viewer will be, how well it works could have a real, measurable impact on SL.

[Love Zhaoying]

17 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Who is more valuable as a customer to Linden Lab, the old-timer Premium account user on a computer that's 5 years old or the newbie who usually uses their phone for social media and their newer computer to play regular video games? Who is going to spend the most money on this platform? I think IMVU users would stick here and spend money, but I'm not so sure a Fortnite or FPS player would.

Well, if and when the Mobile viewer allows Avatar customization, building,  etc., then there's the most "market" there..

 

[Istelathis]

Windows 12 is coming out soon, Windows 10 support will be ending October 10th, 2025 from what I have read.  A lot of software companies will end supporting it around the same time, as is usually the case.  As is typical, alternatives will be used, a lot of software will still run on the hardware as well as OS, but most companies will move away from it once the OS has been plagued with security holes.  I'm curious how long LL will provide viewers for Windows 10, and how many people will eventually have to move on to newer versions just to keep up.  When did LL stop providing viewers for Windows 7?

I was surprised to find that LL continued support for 32-bit viewers for so long.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Peeve: Not getting to answer someone's question because the thread got closed a little too soon.

@BilliJo Aldrin

There has never been anything to stop someone from logging in alts and liking their own posts, so it doesn't matter. 

[Orwar]

   Peeve: AI answering machines. Particularly when implemented by various authorities, and with no option to just type in numbers for what you were calling about as it used to be in the past. Especially since the AI doesn't seem to at all understand the local dialect (which is silly considering I'm calling the local authorities), and when I well got through to 'it' she just goes 'Okay, and do you have any other errands today?' Me: 'No.' It: 'Okay, have a nice day!' - and hangs up. Like, oi, I didn't get any kind of answer to my question I rang about in the first place, so I had to call back and go through the exact same conversation again, and answer 'yes' to be put in a phone queue.

   Then I get the same AI voice telling me periodically what place number I have in the queue, and the way they put numbers together is pretty disturbing. 'Forty-five' fine, 'forty-three' still fine, but then 'forty-' and 'one' spoken as through a moan. Didn't help that I got stuck on that place for a while either so she told me the same number three times over, and each time I just kind of went 'are you okay over there?'. 

[Orwar]

   Peeve: this top is black.

   It's 2024, and creators (a fairly well-known brand, even) still don't know how to materials?

   Luckily they at least give you the option to turn it off.

   Or you can go balls to the walls with it and make it look like pattern-pressed rubber.

   For the umptieth time, this is not a good specular map to stick on just anything!

[Zalificent Corvinus]

38 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Or you can go balls to the walls with it and make it look like pattern-pressed rubber.

Some people actually LIKE rubber.

Just saying.

[SandorWren]

21 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And many of those old-timers contribute to SL in countless other ways as well. So yeah.

I've seen zero evidence that the adoption of PBR is going to lead to a sudden influx of new residents. "YAY! At last I can join SL now that they have PBR!!!!!" -- uh, not so much probably?

But there is reason to be concerned that we might lose some. Which is why I hope that the Firestorm team takes its time to fix what needs fixing in their PBR viewer: given how widely used that viewer will be, how well it works could have a real, measurable impact on SL.

I don't think PBR will attract any new users. It's just eyecandy  for those of us who like that. And it's best used cautiously IMO. Not being able to revert back from PBR when necessary is a real issue in my mind. 

The firestorm team is working away on troubleshooting their Alpha viewer. I personally don't have any issues, but I might not be using certain features. Cinny can't post on her feed with it, and Cat had issues with alphas since she's on a MAC. Apparently Mac users have to turn shadows off, or the viewer uses alpha blending, and things such as my hair turn invisible .

[Love Zhaoying]

Peeve: When things have to get really, really bad for a thread to reach a "successful conclusion".

[JUSTUS Palianta]

Peeve: People who lurk in dark corners of SL like a creeper inspecting and clicking you, then complain about what you are wearing.

[Orwar]

6 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Some people actually LIKE rubber.

Just saying.

   I know, I'm one of them - but there's a right way and a not so right way to do it!