So Whimsy Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 Just want to point out that it's no longer just two sides of this argument as a very unfavorable third side has entered the fray. Please do not lump them together! 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo Alpha Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 Cross posting 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo Alpha Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said: That happens because they attack every single LGBTQ topic that comes up, including this one Stop lying. You are disagreed with. That is all. It's natural to the environment. Edited April 17, 2022 by Solo Alpha 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said: What the thread has evolved into is both sides playing tit for tat and trying to convince each other they are right when it's not the members of the community you need to convince, it's @Linden Lab. Time will tell if they feel it's beneficial to the whole community to create a sub forum or not. Well my participation in this thread is more for Linden Lab to consider, that's why I'm putting my opinion in. Frankly SL did very well as a non-political, non-social-issues-platform other than being a welcoming and open platform to ALL, and I want it to stay that way. I know no one likes to mention Sansar here - but Sansar was a CLEAR example, (and HIFI in some respects) where putting social issues at the FOREFRONT of a platform severely limited its growth and arguably destroyed it, as most issues on those platforms between users was over social ones and dragging the developer and their staff (either willingly or not) - and IMO (important IMO) - that it destroyed both platforms. Now this is coming more into SL than ever before - and the result will probably be the same. People will leave and not come back. So yes, how we talk about this and discuss how we want SL and it's forums to become is important to some of us - on both sides. Others here may dismiss my experience but what can I do. I LOVED HIFI and watched it destroyed by this sort of thing. I LOVED Sansar even MORE and watched it destroyed by this sort of thing. Now it's happening in Second Life, getting louder and louder each week. I know how this ends. The steps to ruin: Claim being a victim of mass and widespread harassment and ill-treatment. Call for special protection, extra-attention, safe-spaces for the oppressed. Silence all countering opinion, villainize them because they must 'not be for safe spaces'. People are afraid to be themselves. People leave. Edited April 17, 2022 by entity0x 5 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayashe Ninetails Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 14 minutes ago, entity0x said: *specific response to Qie* I just want to point out that you're replying to Qie's post from another thread - just in case Qie doesn't hop over here to see it, you may want to repost that portion over there in the original thread so you can continue the discussion. ❤️ 14 minutes ago, entity0x said: Probably to LGBTQ+ resources, institutions and platforms that are specifically, and better equipped to help them with their concerns. I'm making an assumption here, but Persephone could've been referring to SL-related concerns. Specifically, getting assistance with non-standard avatars and mods that can be a pain to work with. Or finding stores in general. Discussing in-world events or finding groups or sims or somesuch. Your Discord suggestion is a decent one, and I've spoken with Coffee about that already, but there is the risk that it would further fragment the community (much like how many don't know there's a Lelutka Discord channel and find it difficult to seek help in-world as the group's shut down these days). 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 38 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said: I just want to point out that you're replying to Qie's post from another thread - just in case Qie doesn't hop over here to see it, you may want to repost that portion over there in the original thread so you can continue the discussion. ❤️ Haha I thought something got messed up somewhere. just working on stuff multiple windows thanks for heads up 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayashe Ninetails Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, entity0x said: Haha I thought something got messed up somewhere. just working on stuff multiple windows thanks for heads up No problem! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said: 1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said: Again, disagreeing with your opinion does not automatically mean I think your opinion is trash. And if you want to convince me to agree with your opinion to a greater degree you're going to have to enter into a debate and provide some clear, logical explanations to make your case. Why do you think that people that oppose the idea want you to agree with their opinion? I simply stated my opinion on the idea and why I don't think creating a sub forum will change anything. I do not expect anyone that is for this idea to agree with me at all. It's very clear that the neither the people for or against the idea will change anyone's mind nor convince LL to create this sub forum on the basis of this thread. What the thread has evolved into is both sides playing tit for tat and trying to convince each other they are right Just wow -- I would never post here with statements indicating my opinion can never be challenged. What I post is only how I've arrived at truth up to that point, and all is open to questioning from anyone. I may come on too strong at times, or too tentative...depending on my patience and mood...but my heartfelt belief is that all opinions are open to challenge and not set in stone, unless we're speaking about the validity of abuse. And usually, if I have the energy, I like to debate and hope all parties involved are open to changing minds. We can learn from each other, Sam1. In the earlier example of my experience on a more conservative-slanted forum, I had an opinion about why activism was needed to change society, and I was waiting for the gay man who died before we could continue our debate to enlighten me as to why there might be negatives related to such an approach, or why he might believe all activism is bad no matter what. I might have learned something from him. I hoped he might change his mind a little too from my input and consider all the marvelous changes in civil rights obtained via activism. I trusted that he was open to me, as I was open to him -- this is how the world heals -- through learning from each other. But regarding your input on the forum, I don't think you grasp something important yet. On page 2 I said:"All I would want excluded would be those coming in saying LGBTQ+ concerns have no validity". Then you said:"This sounds like a moderation issue not a sub-forum issue. Again, you can't control other people's opinions". This isn't all about moderation though -- the existence of a sub-forum would provide the validity in and of itself, simply by its existence. Since we are plagued by people saying we either should not or do not exist, this sub-forum would be a positive step for those in the LGBTQ+ community! Sure, any creep can come in with their opinion and say "you do not, and should not exist, and we should be focusing on gay people in the Ukraine who have it much worse or WHATever".......but a moderator would more easily see it as off-topic because the postings would be in a sub-forum actually named LGBTQ+. How could anyone rightfully claim LGBTQ+ concerns should not exist when there is a sub-forum with their name on it? 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 55 minutes ago, entity0x said: Others here may dismiss my experience but what can I do. I LOVED HIFI and watched it destroyed by this sort of thing. I LOVED Sansar even MORE and watched it destroyed by this sort of thing. Now it's happening in Second Life, getting louder and louder each week. I know how this ends. The steps to ruin: Claim being a victim of mass and widespread harassment and ill-treatment. Call for special protection, extra-attention, safe-spaces for the oppressed. Silence all countering opinion, villainize them because they must 'not be for safe spaces'. People are afraid to be themselves. People leave. Entity, I know people from Sansar and this is not why it ended. I believe you think it's why it ended, but I have to ask why you are seeing this plague of cancelling and safe spaces ruining everything everywhere. This is a very extreme focus of yours since returning to the forum. I wouldn't mind what I see as your delusion, except it ends up infringing on the rights of others when you misperceive the situation and tell others they shouldn't be feeling what they feel. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted April 17, 2022 Author Share Posted April 17, 2022 LGBTQ+ people wanting to talk to each other without being brigaded on the platform's own forums does not destroy Second Life. 4 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Mistwalker Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 SL has been around far longer then HIFI was or Sansar which was a Linden Lab product before it was sold to Wookey Project Corp. LGBT+ have been in SL since Day 1 as they were in both HiFi and Sansar. Neither platform folded because of LGBT+ or any other group. https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2019/12/high-fidelity-shutting-down/ https://uploadvr.com/linden-lab-sells-sansar-focus-second-life/ I stand by what I said about people trying to cover up their real reasons for not wanting an LGBT+ subforum. 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: LGBTQ+ people wanting to talk to each other without being brigaded on the platform's own forums does not destroy Second Life. Coffee, you have a habit of framing many things as hostile when they are not, or make claims that simply do not happen and are NOT happening, OR (if I give you the benefit of the doubt or possibility) that you are using words that you do not fully understand, and this is what others are having issue with. In this case, as 'brigading' is defined as I and others know it, you are making an unfair and incorrect statement. What is Brigading? “Brigading” is a term that originated on Reddit for a coordinated attack by a group of users of an antagonistic subreddit (forum dedicated to a particular topic). The brigade would privately agree to “downvote” comments, either on a random or targeted basis, to deprioritise them in users’ feeds and effectively censor them. The meaning of the term expanded to cover all coordinated voting behaviour to make something or someone seem more or less popular than they actually are, and now it means all coordinated abusive engagement behaviour online. This engagement can come in the form of retweets, comments, quote retweets, email campaigns and more. As is many, many other accusations and claims made by individuals on multiple Virtual World platforms in the last few years, many of them are either used out of turn, misunderstood, misrepresented, exaggerated, and even completely fabricated to support a narrative that an individual (or group) is the target of some organized oppression - which for SL and others is MOSTLY FALSE. I personally don't have an issue of you being happy in SL and getting the support you need to be happy in SL, but I do have a problem with how it goes down - anyone who disagrees keeps getting painted in a negative (and inaccurate) light. It needs to stop. Just like calling other people names here or using derogatory terms against others is against the TOS and against civil discussion - so should be the framing of other individuals or groups to be 'hostile, aggressive, trolls, brigadiers' (and in recent RL events) 'terrorists, government overthrowers, grandma-killers, uncaring, evil, selfish, yahoos,', etc. It may not qualify as hate speech, but it certainly is an uncivil, unfair and nasty way to describe others. I would like to see less of this here and MORE addressing of the points people made. PS. I very, very much just want to stick to the points you make, and never address you personally, but these statements are being typed by you, so I am addressing them as statements and not about YOU. 25 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said: SL has been around far longer then HIFI was or Sansar which was a Linden Lab product before it was sold to Wookey Project Corp. LGBT+ have been in SL since Day 1 as they were in both HiFi and Sansar. Neither platform folded because of LGBT+ or any other group. https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2019/12/high-fidelity-shutting-down/ https://uploadvr.com/linden-lab-sells-sansar-focus-second-life/ I stand by what I said about people trying to cover up their real reasons for not wanting an LGBT+ subforum. Yes, I've had this discussion already and I am fully aware of all the factors, nor did i specify LGBTQ+ or any specific group, but rather an attitude. Of course nothing is 100% responsible, and that's why i stated IMO (important IMO) when I said it. I also don't need to get into any further discussion about the matter - as it will always be denied as a factor. I also recognized that people will dismiss that opinion, as they have before, so no biggie. Experiences may vary, I say. 25 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said: I stand by what I said about people trying to cover up their real reasons for not wanting an LGBT+ subforum. AND... back to the accusations and assuming the worst of people. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Edited April 17, 2022 by entity0x 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondira Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 9 minutes ago, entity0x said: t needs to stop. Just like calling other people names here or using derogatory terms against others is against the TOS and against civil discussion - so should be the framing of other individuals or groups to be 'hostile, aggressive, trolls, brigadiers' (and in recent RL events) 'terrorists, government overthrowers What do you propose as the new names for those who attempted to overthrow our government on Jan 6 after losing the election? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, Moondira said: What do you propose as the new names for those who attempted to overthrow our government on Jan 6 after losing the election? AND now politics has entered the chat. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said: AND now politics has entered the chat. Yes Moondira missed the point, didnt pay attention to context, and cherry picked a few words out to react to, instead of addressing the entire point made. Edited April 17, 2022 by entity0x 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo Alpha Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, entity0x said: Missed the point, didnt pay attention to context, and cherry picked a few words out to react to, instead of addressing the entire point made. And accumulative to that .. it's Luna's sockpuppet speaking there ... ETA : Yeah , this thread really has run it' s course now. Edited April 17, 2022 by Solo Alpha 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted April 17, 2022 Author Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, entity0x said: I would like to see less of this here and MORE addressing of the points people made. If the points had anything to do with the topic at hand, then maybe you would get your wish. Attempting to turn this into a debate about the "LGBTQ+ Question", "social justice", "free speech", "end of Second Life" and on and on ad-nauseam is exactly the kind of distracting strawman we're trying to avoid happening in LGBTQ+ threads by having them in their own sub forum and only serves to further validate the need for such a space. Edited April 17, 2022 by Coffee Pancake 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Velk Kerang said: Well all rightey then. lol Sensitive much? lol I take it you don't have a lot of experience with someone who is straight forward to the point and blunt. lol I was not being intentionally rude. Sorry you took it that way. On a final note. If you're straight as you say. You're not in the LGBTQ+ community. At best you're an ally. Those letters actually do stand for something. lol Have a good day.👍😎 [Snipped out rudeness] There's more to those letters LGBTQ+ than just defining if someone is straight or gay. A person could be born Intersex. A person could be Asexual. A person could be Questioning their gender or sexual identity. And even if you may not realize it, family, friends and allies are generally considered to be parts of communities that they support, hence groups such as PFLAG. While you might not have been "intentionally rude", is being unintentionally rude or even just ignorant something to be proud of? Edited April 17, 2022 by Persephone Emerald 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlen Onyx Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said: Hey, dumb a s s, NOT cool at all. Your point could have been made excluding this altogether. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said: NOT cool at all. Your point could have been made excluding this altogether. True. That was how the voice in my head wanted to respond, but it wasn't good forum etiquette. I'll go back and correct that. Thannks. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said: AND now politics has entered the chat. What, just now? Coffee has not once framed this discussion in terms of left vs. right. That has been the work of a few posters who have characterized this proposal in terms of some radical left wing "gay agenda" thing. I'd be happy to post a dozen or so examples, but you can't have failed to see them -- and may even have contributed to them yourself. There's nothing particularly wrong with discussing this in terms of ideology, although I don't see myself that providing a dedicated space for the LGBTQ+ community to have discussions belongs to either necessarily. Conservatives have dedicated spaces, events, and communities too. But you'd have to be willfully blind to suggest that partisan politics has not haunted this thread from the outset. Edited April 17, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra Repetition 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Yes, I do believe we have a great big troll on this thread attempting to derail it, via mentioning these "government overthrowers" and how we should not call them names. I will be ignoring him from now on. Don't take the bait! Not nice. I don't deserve that label, nor the accusation following it. Coffee wants a special forum, some of us don't want any groups to get special treatment (and we actually explain WHY) . And that's it. The rest is uncivil. Edited April 17, 2022 by entity0x 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 5 hours ago, So Whimsy said: Oh absolutely. I fully understand those who are prideful about it and that's of course, their right. I was just saying it doesn't apply to me personally. Do you understand that there's a different connotation to being proud vs. being prideful? 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo Alpha Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 (edited) https://gyazo.com/9112ad32b15280e6ba3d6671438a3522 /me lays his hand on his chest .. "Omg .. how could she like something I like ? " I feel so violated now .. Edited April 17, 2022 by Solo Alpha 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayashe Ninetails Posted April 17, 2022 Share Posted April 17, 2022 9 minutes ago, entity0x said: Coffee wants a special forum, some of us don't want any groups to get special treatment (and we actually explain WHY) . And that's it. Emphasis mine. Quick question for you - do you feel this same way regarding LL's announcement about the new "in-depth" community pages they're intending to build? The reason I ask is I'm not particularly fond of that idea myself (as I mentioned in the thread that popped up to discuss it last month), howeeeeeeever, I do feel that if LL is going to go ahead with that project (which seems likely as the first page is already done), it's really not too far a leap (IMO) to add a new community-focused sub forum to accompany it. The focus could be the very same thing they're putting into the pages they're creating (businesses, the art scene, events, etc.). I mentioned early on in this thread that that's my reasoning behind supporting Coffee's idea. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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