Suggestions for Encouraging Migration from Bellisseria to the Mainland

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Quinavery said:

Parts of Bellisseria do not have trade routes, and are nearly impassable to fly over. 0sec orbs and ban lines to the top of sim..

Those would violate covenant and should be reported as abuse. The whole point of Bellisseria's rules was to make the entire continent passable—"trade routes" completely redundant—so if folks aren't keeping with those rules, they should be "encouraged" to look elsewhere. Such as on Mainland.

[Kira Skydancer]

I and my alt own two homes in Bellissaria, plus I'm also experimenting as a low key land baron   I've chosen to specialize in accessible properties - on Linden roads/paths/byways or with Actual Navigable Water (that last is much harder to find). I also only buy/sell land in "nice" neighborhoods, where (at least when I'm selling) the neighbors seem to be voluntarily sticking to "normal" housing and not a lot of ugliness and visible skyboxes (why would you build a skybox visible to the ground, anyway?). I currently have two properties for sale in the Snowlands neighborhood in the below photo - personal favorite location on Mainland, currently  

I've been moderately successful in both finding, and selling, "nice properties in nice neighborhoods" - so, yes, those properties do exist (owner sell, abandoned, and auction). I do spend a *lot* of time finding them ... and more time waiting for the "long range" view to rez so I can evaluate the neighborhood properly. I do also spend time helping folks who are new to buying Mainland property, since that was me only a couple months ago

 Lying on property listings: Well, that's easy enough to figure out by just visiting the property. It's not like you have to hop on a plane to go see it (like where I live now, which was purchased "sight unseen")... just go there, wait for things to rez, look around, try to go across the water... then start a thread of sellers who are not truthful in their listings....

I'd be a fan of increasing "distance" between the tiers. I'd also be a fan of being able to set properties "for rent" OR "for sale", so that rentals would show up as a different color on the map... I'm pretty sure I've never sold a property through the forums or MP, it's always been people looking for yellow squares on the map....If rentals were, say, orange, it'd be easy to pick out the actual 'for sale' properties from the rentals.
 

I'd also be a fan of more infrastructure, roads, rivers, rails and rez zones. 

I imagine it's a matter of priorities, but I'd love to see LL spend some time on improving those large swaths of abandoned land (there are tons of those, actually) - prime opportunity there to build, perhaps, neighborhoods similar to Bellissaria, but with no houses - just nice roads, themed landscaping/trees/plants in the protected areas, and nice buildable plots of various sizes - start with an auction, maybe, that starts at 25 cents per m2 rather than the current 50c for regular auctions. Some could have Da Rulz (HOA, ugh), and some could be like normal Mainland, just with a more neighborhoody feel.  Maybe make some neighborhoods that can only be purchased by Premium accounts. Variety is the spice of life, and there are many ways to improve the Mainland experience whether you like chaos or order  - but they all take time, effort and man hours to do, which may be the problem if LL has the same issues many employers do these days

Totally not quite on subject, I'd be a huge fan of Belli properties where you can choose any house style currently available, not just a themed neighborhood.

[Feorie Frimon]

5 minutes ago, Kira Trafalgar said:

I and my alt own two homes in Bellissaria, plus I'm also experimenting as a low key land baron   I've chosen to specialize in accessible properties - on Linden roads/paths/byways or with Actual Navigable Water (that last is much harder to find). I also only buy/sell land in "nice" neighborhoods, where (at least when I'm selling) the neighbors seem to be voluntarily sticking to "normal" housing and not a lot of ugliness and visible skyboxes (why would you build a skybox visible to the ground, anyway?). I currently have two properties for sale in the Snowlands neighborhood in the below photo - personal favorite location on Mainland, currently  

I've been moderately successful in both finding, and selling, "nice properties in nice neighborhoods" - so, yes, those properties do exist (owner sell, abandoned, and auction). I do spend a *lot* of time finding them ... and more time waiting for the "long range" view to rez so I can evaluate the neighborhood properly. I do also spend time helping folks who are new to buying Mainland property, since that was me only a couple months ago

 Lying on property listings: Well, that's easy enough to figure out by just visiting the property. It's not like you have to hop on a plane to go see it (like where I live now, which was purchased "sight unseen")... just go there, wait for things to rez, look around, try to go across the water... then start a thread of sellers who are not truthful in their listings....

I'd be a fan of increasing "distance" between the tiers. I'd also be a fan of being able to set properties "for rent" OR "for sale", so that rentals would show up as a different color on the map... I'm pretty sure I've never sold a property through the forums or MP, it's always been people looking for yellow squares on the map....If rentals were, say, orange, it'd be easy to pick out the actual 'for sale' properties from the rentals.
 

I'd also be a fan of more infrastructure, roads, rivers, rails and rez zones. 

I imagine it's a matter of priorities, but I'd love to see LL spend some time on improving those large swaths of abandoned land (there are tons of those, actually) - prime opportunity there to build, perhaps, neighborhoods similar to Bellissaria, but with no houses - just nice roads, themed landscaping/trees/plants in the protected areas, and nice buildable plots of various sizes - start with an auction, maybe, that starts at 25 cents per m2 rather than the current 50c for regular auctions. Some could have Da Rulz (HOA, ugh), and some could be like normal Mainland, just with a more neighborhoody feel.  Maybe make some neighborhoods that can only be purchased by Premium accounts. Variety is the spice of life, and there are many ways to improve the Mainland experience whether you like chaos or order  - but they all take time, effort and man hours to do, which may be the problem if LL has the same issues many employers do these days

Totally not quite on subject, I'd be a huge fan of Belli properties where you can choose any house style currently available, not just a themed neighborhood.

All of this! Operation Mainland! What what!

[Kira Skydancer]

4 minutes ago, Feorie Frimon said:

All of this! Operation Mainland! What what!

I might be interested in joining that project, if I knew what was involved

[Feorie Frimon]

7 hours ago, Kira Trafalgar said:

I might be interested in joining that project, if I knew what was involved

Stay tuned - the offical announcement happens Saturday!

[Eowyn Southmoor]

On 1/17/2022 at 7:34 AM, Aethelwine said:

Well they could be a bit more proactive with regards to infrastructure, the passage they made between route 8A and the wagon road 10 years ago that they never actually laid road on is one glaring example of their neglect with that regard. There must be many other achievable improvements they have considered and then forgotten about. 

<snip>

 

Though i'm not entirely sure how beneficial to LL adding in that little road between Route 8A and the Old Wagon Road would be, there's nothing to stop residents from making a "feature request" Jira for these kind of things.

Early last year, Aletta Mondragon did exactly that, requesting a linking road through abandoned land between Routes 8A and 8C in Satori in the Osiliers / Varean regions. LL approved it, and within a relatively short timeframe, a nice new road went in.

Late last year, I made a similar Jira - requesting that LL remove the teleport tunnel in Route 8 in the Dammastock region - and simply lay down a new road in the LL protected area to connect that road up. The Jira was less than a month old before LL said they would do it - and only about 2 days later it was done  

It's great to suggest and discuss these ideas in the forums, but ideally it needs to go through an official channel, so a Jira is the correct way to do it

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/15/2022 at 6:14 PM, Rufferta said:

Some employees of Linden Labs have said that Bellisserian homes are considered ‘starter homes’ for new residents but it seems that a lot of folks just want to stay there. Here are some of my suggestions to encourage migration to the Mainland by making it easier for them to find new places.

 

Establish penalties for sellers who lie in their real estate listings:

 

I just spent several days looking for affordable 1024 plots on the Mainland. Sellers’ ads were often misleading and stated that parcels had  “water access” or “protected roadside” when they did not.. Some said that the land was ‘for sale’ when in fact the fee was a rental fee. One even stated that their land was on a different continent. If I was a new resident who bought “water land with sailing access” and then found myself on a water locked prim raft with no recourse I would be angry, and my anger would extend to Second Life in general.

 

Figure out how to get ‘how to buy land’ information to newcomers.

 

The Second Life web page has an excellent introduction, but it doesn’t provide much information to protect against sellers who are not operating in good faith.  

 

There are many private residents who are trying to help newcomers.

 

Feorie  Frimon, for example has an excellent business, Operation Mainland Real Estate, where she sells parcels she has carved out of unclaimed land,, but I’m not sure information about this is getting out to newcomers.

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Bay City - Handa/14/59/27

 

Lindal Kidd used to give excellent lectures on “How to Buy Land” at Oxbridge University in Caledon, but I could find nothing like that currently.

 

The Bellisserian Bureaucracy has done a wonderful job setting up Mainland embassies and tours outside Bellisseria, and their “Passport” system encourages residents to explore.

 

Perhaps Linden Lab could also offer office space in Bellisseria to newcomer organizations where they could give lectures and offer advice?

 

Open Land and Sea Access

 

Figure out how to remove the private parcels on ‘water land’ to unclog navigation, or make more waterways. 

 

I don’t think Linden Lab needs to make more Mainland, but they could make better use of what is there. 

 

Build more roads and rivers. Maybe the Moles could dig out channels for rivers and freeways (suggested names “The Mighty Patch River” or “The Patch Freeway”) and then cut out 1024 parcels beside but not on top of the passages. Right now there has been some progress in clearing private parcels on rivers, and completing a highway in Satori, but it would be wonderful if every waterway was navigable and every road was connected. 

 

The Lindens may sometimes call the Bellisserian homes "starter homes" but in reality they know that the real story of Bellisseria is "Game of Homes," where a core set of customers by multiple homes -- dozens of them -- and keep flipping them to get the best locations and help each other move into them. And people do tend to keep them if they are happy with just one or multiple locations with 175 or 351 prims.

I don't want to have to be beholden to the Bellisserian Embassy system for ads for Mainland. That is a terrible idea. First of all these "embassies" don't function at all as outreach stations; they have parties for their friends at them, then they lie fallow for weeks and months later -- look at the traffic on them. They never make an effort to invite local people on those sims or that continent who have networks to their opening parties; they are just for themselves, with the Moles' blessing. That is my observation from attending all of them so far, and if you want to prove something different, you would have to show that these Embassies don't exist to sell premium accounts and get people to move to Bellisseria -- which is obviously what they are for. I'm not sure they even accomplish that goal.

You say the Passport game encourages exploration -- but what is its usage? We don't know. I myself visit many of the sites, and quite a few are either in Bellisseria or are Mole locations, not Mainland (I myself have several Bellisserian and several Mainland parcels in this stamp system). Many people tell me they are bored with the stamp game. I'm not, but I can see why it would pale -- too many sites are the same.

Operation Mainland is more transparent in that respect as you can see all of the locations on one spreadsheet, and they are more diverse. And all the passport holders in one group, where they join on demand, not after authorization and clearance, as they do in the BBB group. The BBB lists its sites, but in separate issues of the newsletter so that you can't see them all in one place.

Putting in boards with ads for Mainland sales or rentals inevitably means that only those who get in with the BBB and the Moles will be favoured, and not all of us would even want to play such a game.

Again, if you have kiosks or billboards in the newbies' landing area and welcome areas openly accessible to all for a small fee, which in the past was done with ads at telehubs run by Lindens, which residents could access for two weeks at a time, you will solve some of this problem. Otherwise, if you have people queuing up for admittance to an Embassy ad board by discretion -- as you do with passports -- it limits the value of it for Mainland attention.

As for bus tours, we are a long way technically from making these really attractive because it is almost impossible to drive a bus full of people on a Linden road without crashing or going off course constantly. Some people find this hilarious hijinx; others find it unacceptable and leave.

See the "land barons" thread for my list of what needs to be done, and yes, they need to put more roads and water bodies in sims with none of that.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/15/2022 at 6:19 PM, Marigold Devin said:

With the best intentions, people aren't going to take up mainland again any time soon. It's always been "Marmite", I've always found it an interesting place to live, and plenty of rental people are happy with their set up too, but the Bellissarians are unlikely to be swayed, and I can't say I blame them. Bellissaria continent has made me see Second Life - Linden Lab really - in a much more positive light. The new homes have been built with long-term residents' suggestions in mind. 

I think it is very likely - and I was just having this conversation a few minutes ago in world with someone - that Linden Lab might actually chop off bits of the mainland where entire regions are just abandoned land. 

Edited to add:

My head is a bit foggy, I am going off to eat and hopefully wake up a bit, but Bay City comes into my head. When Bay City was created, that became very desirable (and expensive). People love the structured and community-orientated vibe - I think it is still classed as mainland (foggy head foggy head, might amend later). 

 

 

This is the reality -- the Lindens are focused on Bellisseria, that is their best selling product after private islands, and the Mainland is viewed only as an unpleasant chore to them -- abandoned land resales, auction set-ups, and Governance tickets. They haven't built anything new on a large scale on Mainland in a decade or more. If they fixed up some roads here and there or put more passages, great, but they shouldn't have to do this under duress of a JIRA.

They don't have a plan for Mainland other than accelerating their resale of abandoned land, which only worsens the scene as more land barons buy abandoned to keep prices up, bidding them up past affordability by end users -- and then dump the parcels in whole or in part so as not to pay tier on land they can't sell.

As was suggested some time ago (that person should win the genius prize and I don't recall who it was), the Lindens should put the old Linden homes on old Mainland, and thereby solve their problem of patchwork quilts in both Linden home sims and inland Mainland sims.

 

[Yukiko Yeshto]

15 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

[...]They never make an effort to invite local people on those sims or that continent who have networks to their opening parties; they are just for themselves [...] That is my observation from attending all of them so far [...]

[...] As for bus tours, we are a long way technically from making these really attractive because it is almost impossible to drive a bus full of people on a Linden road without crashing or going off course constantly.[...]

I am surprised that you didn't recognize known names from the Sansara and other Mainland communities, nor realized that the number of Mainlanders and Bellisserians attending were equal. Are you sure you were at the same Sansara embassy opening? I am kidding, I know you were.

I am also surprised that you claim that a bus tour wasn't attractive nor technically possible when 1) from ~35 people attending the opening, ~20 stayed to travel until the very end of the tour, and kept expressing how much they enjoyed it. Not only right after the tour, but days later. Including coverage on different blogs and various social media sites. Someone even streamed live on YouTube; and 2) when after we sorted ourselves, we finished the last 3/4 of the tour without further issues. Are you sure you were talking about the same bus tour like the rest of us? I am kidding again, I know you were.
And why is a little group of travellers that important to you anyway? It was a little adventure for those who like exploring, and we all had lots of fun in the Snowlands, especially with the off-roading part. There was joy and laughter. Some said that the tour made them wanting to come back soon to explore more. Some made new friends. Isn't that something to be happy about?

I am as well surprised that, since you have called yourself being from the "press", you make it way too obvious that, in general, you have huge gaps in your research of all actual facts on which you base your conclusions. I couldn't care less that I was part of your questionable claims, directly or between the lines, it's not even about me. If it were, I wouldn't have taken the time to react at all. But I react when I see someone continuously trying to attack the entire SL community, and when I can cleary see that it is in an unjust and inept way. It's not cool that your attempts are part of the problem why there are resentments at all between Mainlanders and Bellisserians, resident-only and "Moles-blessed" projects, non-profit and business-focused communities, etc etc. That's infelicitous, to put it mildly. 

I also don't understand the constant fingerpointing at LL and the Moles about Bellisseria. This part is only ~3 years old in comparison to ~18 years of SL as a whole. That's a ridiculously short time. If I look back into the historical timeline of SL, when which continent was built and how fast, and to what expenses in regard of infrastructure, landscaping, and more, then I really cannot wonder that not much happened "in a decade or more". Not even starting about the financial stability and human resources it needs to stem such a huge project. If I compare the size of Bellisseria to the whole lot of Mainland continents, then I also find it very logical to implement gained knowledge about the needs and wants of the SL community in such a comparatively small part first. People learn over time, and things evolve. What if Bellisseria is the first step of improving SL in general, and is maybe considered a sort of a "stress test" because they had already in mind right from the beginning on to collect data and experiences from Bellissiera in attempt to come back to Mainland and amend those parts in the future, too? We don't know for sure but it's not such an abstract idea. By all means, let them celebrate their Bellisseria achievements for a few years, it is part of SL, too. I rather wait patiently and support, than sulking in a corner and moaning about how unfair this or that was. The thing is, people will go to and/or stay where they feel welcome, and kindness is cultivated. Show the same kindness to LL and the Moles, even if they are currently not sprinkling glitter all over your personal favourite spots on the grid, and be prepared to welcome them back to Mainland once they are ready for it. And show the same kindness to everyone else, whether they live on Mainland, Bellisseria, Blake Sea, or any other part within SL. We all suffer enough from the stress with the pandemic world-wide already; I absolutely cannot approve of bringing such kind of negativism into SL on top. There is so much potential to leave a positive mark, so, please, let's celebrate the bright sides of life, and join forces to make SL a beautiful world to spend some time in.

[Feorie Frimon]

1 hour ago, Yukiko Yeshto said:

But I react when I see someone continuously trying to attack the entire SL community, and when I can cleary see that it is in an unjust and inept way. It's not cool that your attempts are part of the problem why there are resentments at all between Mainlanders and Bellisserians, resident-only and "Moles-blessed" projects, non-profit and business-focused communities, etc etc. That's infelicitous, to put it mildly. 

I also don't understand the constant fingerpointing at LL and the Moles about Bellisseria. This part is only ~3 years old in comparison to ~18 years of SL as a whole. That's a ridiculously short time. If I look back into the historical timeline of SL, when which continent was built and how fast, and to what expenses in regard of infrastructure, landscaping, and more, then I really cannot wonder that not much happened "in a decade or more". Not even starting about the financial stability and human resources it needs to stem such a huge project. If I compare the size of Bellisseria to the whole lot of Mainland continents, then I also find it very logical to implement gained knowledge about the needs and wants of the SL community in such a comparatively small part first. People learn over time, and things evolve. What if Bellisseria is the first step of improving SL in general, and is maybe considered a sort of a "stress test" because they had already in mind right from the beginning on to collect data and experiences from Bellissiera in attempt to come back to Mainland and amend those parts in the future, too? 

I understand where you are coming from, and I know we just become neighbors...but hear me out before you hate my guts.

I think that Prokofy Neva has made some fair points over the many threads this has been pointed out - and it's not just Prokofy that has brought some of these concerns up in a public forum. When he says 'Mole Blessed', he's referencing actual Group Notices that were sent out in the BBB group about how residents should not participate in 'any other stamp game' because it didn't have the 'backing of the Moles'. That actually happened - it’s not made up.

I think the infelicitous part of this isn't that Prokofy brought this up, but that it (and a long laundry list of other things) have happened at all in the first place over something like a stamp game and where people ‘live’ in SecondLife.

I hate that there is this big divider between 'Bellisarians and Mainlanders', but honestly? That happens when you have some services that are available to some people (that 'live' in a certain area) and not available to others (that 'live' in a different area)…. IRL and in SL. I could go on a huge rant about where people 'live' in a virtual world and how the entire concept is ridiculous, but the point is Secondlife is supposed to be a place where all residents can participate, create, and explore. There are simply not enough SecondLifers for us to be fighting about 'Mainland' and 'Belliseria'.
I think what Profkofy is trying to say is that there seems to be some bias simply because Forever Tourist actually applies to ALL residents (has more members, has more listings, etc.) and you don't see any of those kiosks anywhere other than private land. And look... I get that by me even saying anything about this looks weird because I'm behind Forever Tourist.. but at some point, I have to stand next to Prokofy and say something.... because Prokofy is right... it's weird. And it -does- look biased...even if it's not intended to be that way. How people perceive things matters - even if it's not true. 

I think the Belliseria Embassies are an interesting idea and I was hopeful that they would be successful, but I don't know if it's achieving the kind of unity that the project was intended to do. I visited with great interest a few of them (my RL husband loves Belli BTW and I also have a camper of my own) to have a look, and with respect, the Embassy comes across (to me) ad a smartly decorated ad sign to move to Bellisaria. I never see people (but that could totally be a coincidence). I'd be curious to learn more about how the Embassies and Ambassadors are interacting with their neighbors there on the mainland, etc. Why? Because the mainland doesn't need more 'independent thinkers' with big high walls. It needs more public spaces and ways to bring people together....just like you guys do over in Bellisaria. I think the more community we can make IN GENERAL is good and the mainland as a whole can learn from the important lessons Bellisaria has taught Secondlife about community. 

The Embassies and the now more frequent BBB kiosks on Linden Mainland areas have me a little worried, though... I'll be honest. And it's not because of Forever Tourist - it's because the people that actually -live- in these regions can't interact with these 'public objects' at all. The kiosks are literally prim 'spam' for the residents of that area - they can't even get a BBB passport if they wanted to. Putting these kiosks out is certainly the right of anyone on any of the Linden and Mole teams, but I'd be curious to know how these items are any different from any other 'ad' anywhere else on the mainland promoting something else? 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Feorie Frimon
Typos

[Qie Niangao]

26 minutes ago, Feorie Frimon said:

they can't even get a BBB passport if they wanted to.

Really? Besides me, I wonder how many folks who put out a kiosk would be surprised and bemused by this.

Other than the confection of a Bellisserian "nationality" with exclusive "embassies" and etc., it all seems very weird to me.

Once upon a time there were "battles" between Bay City and Caledon that were mutually enjoyable silliness. Is this supposed to be like that?

[Feorie Frimon]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

Really? Besides me, I wonder how many folks who put out a kiosk would be surprised and bemused by this.

Other than the confection of a Bellisserian "nationality" with exclusive "embassies" and etc., it all seems very weird to me.

Once upon a time there were "battles" between Bay City and Caledon that were mutually enjoyable silliness. Is this supposed to be like that?

I thought so at first, but it’s moved far past ‘friendly competition’ for me on my end. I am legit being harassed. 

[Mollymews]

On 1/16/2022 at 12:14 PM, Rufferta said:

Maybe the Moles could dig out channels for rivers and freeways (suggested names “The Mighty Patch River” or “The Patch Freeway”)

 

just going off this

i get that we can appreciate everything that the Linden Department of Public Works has done to make the inworld more pleasant, but I think that this kind of move toward inworld monument building adulating Linden staff is bit concerning, at least to me

the thing that made go hmm! the most recently is the statue monument on Eyrie that the LDPW erected as a tribute to itself. It might just be my real world culture affecting how I think about these things.  Is culturally disconcerting to me this kind of self-adulation by staff. In the same way that back in the day some Linden staff themselves created Fan Club groups to their own adulation, which culturally I also found to be disconcerting

another tribute I find unsettling is the monument to Ebbe Linden on Altberg region. That there is a region named for Ebbe Altberg is fine, same as there are regions named for Philip Rosedale and even Mitch Kapor.  That there is a death memorial to Mr Altberg on the Altberg region is unsettling to me, culturally speaking

Ebbe Altberg made a significant contribution to all of Second Life, not just one part of it, and his memorial (his life memorial) should be at the Linden Memorial Park along with the other people there (Mr Altberg's peers) who also made significant contributions to Second Life. Culturally I find it disrespectful toward Mr Altberg for the LDPW to not have done this   

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

23 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You say the Passport game encourages exploration -- but what is its usage? We don't know. I myself visit many of the sites, and quite a few are either in Bellisseria or are Mole locations, not Mainland (I myself have several Bellisserian and several Mainland parcels in this stamp system). Many people tell me they are bored with the stamp game. I'm not, but I can see why it would pale -- too many sites are the same.

 

 

I want to say in this regard that I really did try using this to explore different regions but honestly it just fell short of being user friendly and fun. It is basically just a spreadsheet of mainland sims with very little description as to what they actually are.  The stamp HUD is useless to me as it's 1. huge and 2. you can't even see the stamps on the HUD which makes it less than desirable as a teleport tool. What I am doing is collecting LMs with pictures that I can't see. Unless you can incorporate more of a "destination guide" feel such as a website that hosts pictures and description like LL has I can't say that this is useful, at least for me.  I really did try to like it but I feel it was hyped up to be more than it ended up being in the end.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Sam1 Bellisserian

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Once upon a time there were "battles" between Bay City and Caledon that were mutually enjoyable silliness. Is this supposed to be like that?

I'd sign up for such a battle, except it's sadly not a silly, friendly competition at all. I left the BBB group as soon as I learned that they exclude anyone who is not living in Bellisseria from their passport game, and then I saw some of the things they were saying about Forever Tourist, and... well. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Sylvia Tamalyn

[Feorie Frimon]

28 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I want to say in this regard that I really did try using this to explore different regions but honestly it just fell short of being user friendly and fun. It is basically just a spreadsheet of mainland sims with very little description as to what they actually are.  The stamp HUD is useless to me as it's 1. huge and 2. you can't even see the stamps on the HUD which makes it less than desirable as a teleport tool. What I am doing is collecting LMs with pictures that I can't see. Unless you can incorporate more of a "destination guide" feel such as a website that hosts pictures and description like LL has I can't say that this is useful, at least for me.  I really did try to like it but I feel it was hyped up to be more than it ended up being in the end.

 

I agree with this - the stamp games are useful sometimes! (I keep mine tucked away off screen when I use it) But for me the stamps are just a little add on - the win is the ‘list’. It’s easy for me to sort through quickly, I can find new places and sort through other ones if I’m looking for something to do or see. 

I’ve heard other people really want to display their stamps, etc. Or put it in a car or something (which sounds cool!). 
 

But for me… it’s the list. That’s where the good stuff is.  The stamps and passport stuff is just flavor. 
 

But this has divulged off course. This isn’t about the BBB or stamps or whatever. 
 

I was just trying to point out that there is perceived bias that is creating tension, and creating a separation of ‘us and them’ is making that perceived bias look more obvious. That, and that Prokofy isn’t the only one that feels that way. I do, too.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Feorie Frimon

[Feorie Frimon]

16 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

I'd sign up for such a battle, except it's sadly not a silly, friendly competition at all. I left the BBB group as soon as I learned that they exclude anyone who is not living in Bellisseria from their passport game, and then I saw some of the things they were saying about Forever Tourist, and... well. 

Thankyou so much for saying this out loud. You are the only one who’s been brave enough to do it publicly. I really really really appreciate it. 
 

Thank you. ❤️❤️❤️

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

2 minutes ago, Feorie Frimon said:

Thankyou so much for saying this out loud. You are the only one who’s been brave enough to do it publicly. I really really really appreciate it. 
 

Thank you. ❤️❤️❤️

You're welcome! And to get back on topic, as you suggested, the behavior I mentioned drove me back to focus my time on Mainland, so that's one way to encourage migration. 🤣

[Feorie Frimon]

16 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

You're welcome! And to get back on topic, as you suggested, the behavior I mentioned drove me back to focus my time on Mainland, so that's one way to encourage migration. 🤣

Me too. I’m really focusing on trying to make mainland communities that feel like an upgrade. I love Belli (the concept and build) - I have tried to learn from what they are doing over there (build wise, events too maybe?) to help bring some of that to the mainland. 
 

But places like Wintercove and Old Campbell Coast (the new CSC group) and Bay City? Those types of mainland communities are where my heart is. I try to make sure people know about them - that’s the only way they will know to go check them out or try Mainland, right? 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Feorie Frimon
Typo

[Prokofy Neva]

6 hours ago, Yukiko Yeshto said:

I am surprised that you didn't recognize known names from the Sansara and other Mainland communities, nor realized that the number of Mainlanders and Bellisserians attending were equal. Are you sure you were at the same Sansara embassy opening? I am kidding, I know you were.

I am also surprised that you claim that a bus tour wasn't attractive nor technically possible when 1) from ~35 people attending the opening, ~20 stayed to travel until the very end of the tour, and kept expressing how much they enjoyed it. Not only right after the tour, but days later. Including coverage on different blogs and various social media sites. Someone even streamed live on YouTube; and 2) when after we sorted ourselves, we finished the last 3/4 of the tour without further issues. Are you sure you were talking about the same bus tour like the rest of us? I am kidding again, I know you were.
And why is a little group of travellers that important to you anyway? It was a little adventure for those who like exploring, and we all had lots of fun in the Snowlands, especially with the off-roading part. There was joy and laughter. Some said that the tour made them wanting to come back soon to explore more. Some made new friends. Isn't that something to be happy about?

I am as well surprised that, since you have called yourself being from the "press", you make it way too obvious that, in general, you have huge gaps in your research of all actual facts on which you base your conclusions. I couldn't care less that I was part of your questionable claims, directly or between the lines, it's not even about me. If it were, I wouldn't have taken the time to react at all. But I react when I see someone continuously trying to attack the entire SL community, and when I can cleary see that it is in an unjust and inept way. It's not cool that your attempts are part of the problem why there are resentments at all between Mainlanders and Bellisserians, resident-only and "Moles-blessed" projects, non-profit and business-focused communities, etc etc. That's infelicitous, to put it mildly. 

I also don't understand the constant fingerpointing at LL and the Moles about Bellisseria. This part is only ~3 years old in comparison to ~18 years of SL as a whole. That's a ridiculously short time. If I look back into the historical timeline of SL, when which continent was built and how fast, and to what expenses in regard of infrastructure, landscaping, and more, then I really cannot wonder that not much happened "in a decade or more". Not even starting about the financial stability and human resources it needs to stem such a huge project. If I compare the size of Bellisseria to the whole lot of Mainland continents, then I also find it very logical to implement gained knowledge about the needs and wants of the SL community in such a comparatively small part first. People learn over time, and things evolve. What if Bellisseria is the first step of improving SL in general, and is maybe considered a sort of a "stress test" because they had already in mind right from the beginning on to collect data and experiences from Bellissiera in attempt to come back to Mainland and amend those parts in the future, too? We don't know for sure but it's not such an abstract idea. By all means, let them celebrate their Bellisseria achievements for a few years, it is part of SL, too. I rather wait patiently and support, than sulking in a corner and moaning about how unfair this or that was. The thing is, people will go to and/or stay where they feel welcome, and kindness is cultivated. Show the same kindness to LL and the Moles, even if they are currently not sprinkling glitter all over your personal favourite spots on the grid, and be prepared to welcome them back to Mainland once they are ready for it. And show the same kindness to everyone else, whether they live on Mainland, Bellisseria, Blake Sea, or any other part within SL. We all suffer enough from the stress with the pandemic world-wide already; I absolutely cannot approve of bringing such kind of negativism into SL on top. There is so much potential to leave a positive mark, so, please, let's celebrate the bright sides of life, and join forces to make SL a beautiful world to spend some time in.

A reminder to those with trigger-happy AR buttons: The BBB Embassy program is an officially sponsored LL program so it is open to criticism. And debate of its merits is not "a residential dispute" but criticism of Linden Lab, which has always been tolerated on the forums, and distinguishes LL from various gaming platforms. It's a shame that the favoured groups of residents chosen by the Lindens don't have as thick a skin as the Lindens themselves do.

Statements like yours are a public service and they self-advertise why Bellisseria needs and deserves criticism. Just letting it stand serves the purpose of explaining the deep problem with Bellisseria. 

I have attended all the Embassy openings so far, I have the list of everyone who attended, and I can see that it is your friends, end of story. If you have friends 'also on the Mainland," that's great, but this is a small circle of people. I never see anyone from even your neighbours, although some of them have large networks. You don't invite them -- or they don't come, likely the former. If at the Sansara opening, where you had 33 on the sim, more than at the other openings, you pulled in people who came on your bus tours in the past, great, but by and large, I repeat: these are parties for you and your friends, except for some press who cover them. Perhaps you will sell premiums. Let's hope the Lindens are actually measuring click-throughs here but then we'll never know what they say. I would hazard a guess that for buildings that have zero traffic on them for weeks on end or in the small two digits, likely there aren't people clicking through to a premium buy or even a visit to Bellisseria.

So wait, you went from being all-inclusive and expansive, to being "a little group of travellers"? Which is it? There's nothing wrong with having fun by taking a bus ride with 20 people that crashes every few minutes, but it's then a different event, not a "tour". Plus a ride that goes to only one place isn't really a "tour," and it begs the question as to why we don't just fly there. I'm willing to put up with a lot of misdirection and crashing for the sake of trying something -- and did. I recall one woman saying very distinctly, however,  "This is unacceptable" -- and leaving. But we just airbrush that out, right? And pretend that if someone is press attempting to cover something that is NOT fully transparent AT ALL, that is is just "poor research" on their part. Ridiculous. 

Bus tours are a way of bonding a small group of two dozen friends, sure. They are not a way to grow the population of SL, let alone premium accounts, and that should be obvious. Travel is just not there yet and is hard enough for one person on a horse or two in a car. That's fine. I ride the roads and railroads of the Mainland and Bellisseria myself often, and there is small group of people who do. But let's not pretend this is common or widespread or the fact that somebody posted a YouTube with a small number of views from this event that this is "progress". The Lindens don't pretend it is, and you shouldn't either, even if you do.

I was the first to have a "Letter of Transit" and gift game, copied in fact by the BB that has...let me see...17 participants? Maybe 23 if you count all those who didn't finish it? LOL. You see how silly it is to make claims like this? I do activities like this all the time and maintain the SL Public Land Preserve which thousands of people have participated in, for 17 years. But I don't pretend this is some big deal; it's just a thing. It's like a lot of things people do in SL and attract X number of people to and have a good time -- a club, a reading circle, a round of Greedy Greedy or a chess game; riding their horses on the Lindens' bridle path. Most of this happens with no self-advertisement and no Moles or Lindens. Good! They can't do everything!

You don't seem to have any sense of yourself and I am not likely to be successful in getting it across, but the BBB has failed in its mission -- and it was a dubious mission to start with, trying to deploy missions all over the Mainland and recruit people to Bellisseria. Bellisseria grows mainly by existing customers adding a house there -- or 50. Some new people coming in get homes -- which they get by going there either by word of mouth or by seeing blogs. The Lindens don't allow search to be put in the lots there to stamp out commercialism -- so then they have to jump over their own knees and create this network of entities that do allow search and connections to commercial activity. They would do better putting up billboards on the highways, which they control.

No one ever comes to the Embassy openings except the BBB itself and its friends. If a stray person wanders by, great, but anyone can see who is there, and it's obvious that notices go out only to the BBB Group itself, the list of passport holders -- and that list requires a) ownership of a house in Bellisseria and b) application and acceptance of a passport. So that is a very exclusive list, and an obvious form of exclusivity, so it's a wonder why you claim that it is anything else but that.

I have been criticizing LL and SL and its favoured groups since 2004. Where have you been?

This idea that the Lindens are going to use Bellisseria as a "test case" and "come back" to the Mainland is laughably absurd. It worked the other way around! The Lindens "test-cased" on the Mainland, trying various things, but never long enough and never with anything but a select few of partners, and then scrapped that as a failure and turned to Bellisseria. Bellisseria -- where I have 7 homes and participate in the stamp program and various other events -- is their most successful product to date, where they finally listened to their customers and gave them what they want. 

But sadly -- and needlessly -- they did this at the expense of the Mainland, which they have neglected terribly. The notion that people who live and work on the Mainland and pay more tier there than individually or even collectively than Bellisseria should somehow wait for the Lindens to "finish with Bellisseria" and pay attention to the Mainland is -- again -- absurd -- and heedlessly cruel, of the kind of heedlessness we've come to expect from the BBB gang.

The Lindens can do both, just as they promised to do both when they started Sansara and claimed they wouldn't short their legacy SL product. So they can at least do the minimum and remove grief prims without multiple ARs and please for months on end, and end the tyranny of obelisks that devalue land and force it to be abandoned. They can do their abandoned auctions with more care. Etc. See the other thread for my list. The idea of improving the Mainland isn't merely connecting it to Bellisseria for sailors -- they make up a small percentage of the resident population. There is no reason not to improve Mainland sims that currently don't even have roads let alone bodies of water or parks. 

You're out of touch with reality and don't read SL Stats by Tyche Shepherd if you claim that Bellisseria "is a small part". Nothing of the sort. It now equals or surpasses the Mainland minus abandoned land, which LL is rapidly churning through. If both Bellisseria and the Mainland together are smaller than private islands, so what? The private islands rarely need the Lindens' attention. Bellisseria is their growing, green tip where all their content innovation and largesse is lavished. The Mainland is now a poor step-child.

I think -- again -- you can't see how you look, when you write something like this, that not only proves my point, but is an actual embarrassment to the Lindens:

Show the same kindness to LL and the Moles, even if they are currently not sprinkling glitter all over your personal favourite spots on the grid, and be prepared to welcome them back to Mainland once they are ready for it. 

I show my kindness to LL and the Moles by paying tier after year, helping customers they don't have the capacity to help because they aren't premium, and keeping my areas of the Mainland nice. 

But even if they *think* this -- and likely some of the Moles in particular do as they align with the residents of their favourite builds, whether Bay City or Fantassiera -- they would never say this. They would never indicate it. And it also sheds light on how you all think in your clique in Bellisseria -- that you are the favoured children now (the Lindens would at least try to deny this) and that WHEN you are favoured, it's about getting "glitter" on your "favourite" parts. And that you magnanimously -- when you have had your fill of playing Game of Homes and getting 50 prime locations in Belli -- you will "let" the Moles go back to chores on the Mainland (?!)

I shed my own glitter on my own properties I pay tier to the Lindens for, thank you very much.

Criticism, even if severe and negative, is a good thing, and that has what has ALWAYS brought improvements to SL. To cite but one recent and speedy example -- when the Lindens made reviews on the Marketplace anonymous (likely as the result of the special pleading of some divas who attend their office hours or are their friends on their alts) -- thereby removing all accountability from those who put up spurious negative reviews to harm competitors or simply to troll -- the Lindens quickly reversed it when protest broke out on the forums -- and not only there. You don't expect to live real life without criticism of the government or powerful groups in society when they harm the public. So there is no reason to do it here.

(To be sure, they removed the ability of anyone to comment, thereby stripping away another area of accountability.)

Pretending that complaining about real issues -- no roads, destructive auctions, and grief prims on physics lagging sims for weeks on end -- is just "moaning" or "pointing the finger" merely self-discredits. Were any of these problems happening in Bellisseria, we would hear about it instantly and the Moles would come running at all hours. A stair bannister isn't the right shade of style or paint and you all squawk for many pages.

The only thing I can say as a long student of favoured groups of the Lindens -- from the FIC to the list of "Solutions Providers" to the staff, drawn from the resident base -- where are they now? Nearly all of them are gone now. Beware their fate.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Feorie Frimon said:

I understand where you are coming from, and I know we just become neighbors...but hear me out before you hate my guts.

I think that Prokofy Neva has made some fair points over the many threads this has been pointed out - and it's not just Prokofy that has brought some of these concerns up in a public forum. When he says 'Mole Blessed', he's referencing actual Group Notices that were sent out in the BBB group about how residents should not participate in 'any other stamp game' because it didn't have the 'backing of the Moles'. That actually happened - it’s not made up.

I think the infelicitous part of this isn't that Prokofy brought this up, but that it (and a long laundry list of other things) have happened at all in the first place over something like a stamp game and where people ‘live’ in SecondLife.

I hate that there is this big divider between 'Bellisarians and Mainlanders', but honestly? That happens when you have some services that are available to some people (that 'live' in a certain area) and not available to others (that 'live' in a different area)…. IRL and in SL. I could go on a huge rant about where people 'live' in a virtual world and how the entire concept is ridiculous, but the point is Secondlife is supposed to be a place where all residents can participate, create, and explore. There are simply not enough SecondLifers for us to be fighting about 'Mainland' and 'Belliseria'.
I think what Profkofy is trying to say is that there seems to be some bias simply because Forever Tourist actually applies to ALL residents (has more members, has more listings, etc.) and you don't see any of those kiosks anywhere other than private land. And look... I get that by me even saying anything about this looks weird because I'm behind Forever Tourist.. but at some point, I have to stand next to Prokofy and say something.... because Prokofy is right... it's weird. And it -does- look biased...even if it's not intended to be that way. How people perceive things matters - even if it's not true. 

I think the Belliseria Embassies are an interesting idea and I was hopeful that they would be successful, but I don't know if it's achieving the kind of unity that the project was intended to do. I visited with great interest a few of them (my RL husband loves Belli BTW and I also have a camper of my own) to have a look, and with respect, the Embassy comes across (to me) ad a smartly decorated ad sign to move to Bellisaria. I never see people (but that could totally be a coincidence). I'd be curious to learn more about how the Embassies and Ambassadors are interacting with their neighbors there on the mainland, etc. Why? Because the mainland doesn't need more 'independent thinkers' with big high walls. It needs more public spaces and ways to bring people together....just like you guys do over in Bellisaria. I think the more community we can make IN GENERAL is good and the mainland as a whole can learn from the important lessons Bellisaria has taught Secondlife about community. 

The Embassies and the now more frequent BBB kiosks on Linden Mainland areas have me a little worried, though... I'll be honest. And it's not because of Forever Tourist - it's because the people that actually -live- in these regions can't interact with these 'public objects' at all. The kiosks are literally prim 'spam' for the residents of that area - they can't even get a BBB passport if they wanted to. Putting these kiosks out is certainly the right of anyone on any of the Linden and Mole teams, but I'd be curious to know how these items are any different from any other 'ad' anywhere else on the mainland promoting something else? 

 

If you make a stamp game that requires residency in one set of sims, and make passports for it on a discretionary basis -- they must be approved and the proof of residency must be established -- by definition, you will have a limited number of participants EVEN if you open up applications for stamp *sites* to the Mainland. And the obvious truth of this is seen by the number of sites and numbers of members in Operation Mainland -- because it's on demand and registrational, not administrative, i.e. someone has to "clear it". It's good that Operation Mainland made a BETTER stamp game that involves more people, but bad that the Moles then refuse to turn over any of their sites to this "competitor" and BBB groups rant against this "competitor". But it shows you how a free society should work, and there has to be more, not less of this in the Metaverse.  If you want to claim that the commercial sites in the OM list are tacky, show us the shops that Belli matrons shop at and we'll have a discussion about that.

To be sure, it can be that Belli site stamps get more usage. I know, because I have stamp sites in Bellisseria AND on the Mainland, and the Bellisserian ones get way more traffic *from BBB passport users*  because: a) people in Bellisseria are in the same groups and make recommendations to each other b) people in Bellisseria are more likely to read the BBB newsletter with the new locations which is on the public Internet but whose updates are distributed ONLY to those who are a member of the BBB Users Group, i.e. with passports; c) there are tours to the sites but generally news about them is spread through existing BBB and resident groups and therefore are self-limiting; d) the BBB Embassies have slide shows that feature some of the sites in the stamp game, but they tend to be the ones inside Bellisseria.

The OM sites get less traffic (although I need to compare it to date) simply because I have offbeat sites that are competing with many MORE sites in OM's list and more interesting/fun ones. So I accept that and the solution is merely to add more sites of mine to OM. It will pay off more ultimately than trying to put more alts on Belli homes to make more stamp sites -- an expensive proposition!

If you make a stamp game in which anyone can upload a stamp for free (the paid ones are only if you wish to offer a gift, which I do, so I have a few of them), then you will simply get more participants. Uploading on demand is always a way to grow a population on the Internet and in Silicon Valley in general. Sure, if some terrible site inciting racism or sexism were uploaded, Feorie would remove it, she is reviewing them constantly and visiting them as well. They can also be reported. But by and large there are way more of them and they are refreshed more often because *commercial lots in searchs are included*. If I put in my own rentals main office, I'd likely double my rentals and traffic, oh, good idea, I should make a gift and do that. Others have been quicker about it and enjoy more visits. I have discovered way more places on the Operation Mainland list simply because there are more of them -- and there is a gift often, not a requirement or something built in on the BBB game (I offer gifts anyway at my Belli stamp locations).

I agree that to get more involvement in SL, you don't need more gated communities or A-list events but more public spaces with things to do. I had to laugh when I saw a "Dog Park" on the Belli boat tour yesterday. For years, some tenants of mine and I have asked the Lindens to make a "dog walking park" in their fallow "Linden Right of Way" since they aren't going to put yet more railroad there (and mercifully). Ideally, it would have autoreturn on 10 minutes so you could show your pets more easily if they don't attach to you or even if they do. I didn't see anyone walking their dog in the "Dog Park" which has strange railroad ties in it whose purpose is obscure.

I didn't realize the BBB got to have kiosks in addition to Embassies! That's really unfair. The Lindens should have THEIR OWN networked ad system running on highways and public areas which ANY resident can pay to have an ad in. They can police this and limit the time, just as they did on the telehubs.  There is a concerted clique of oldbies/FIC who constantly invoke the idea that tawdry XXX club ads will be put in them. But if the requirement is that the ad is PG that will deter people who will face a ban if they violate the TOS as they would on any other offense.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Mollymews said:

 

just going off this

i get that we can appreciate everything that the Linden Department of Public Works has done to make the inworld more pleasant, but I think that this kind of move toward inworld monument building adulating Linden staff is bit concerning, at least to me

the thing that made go hmm! the most recently is the statue monument on Eyrie that the LDPW erected as a tribute to itself. It might just be my real world culture affecting how I think about these things.  Is culturally disconcerting to me this kind of self-adulation by staff. In the same way that back in the day some Linden staff themselves created Fan Club groups to their own adulation, which culturally I also found to be disconcerting

another tribute I find unsettling is the monument to Ebbe Linden on Altberg region. That there is a region named for Ebbe Altberg is fine, same as there are regions named for Philip Rosedale and even Mitch Kapor.  That there is a death memorial to Mr Altberg on the Altberg region is unsettling to me, culturally speaking

Ebbe Altberg made a significant contribution to all of Second Life, not just one part of it, and his memorial (his life memorial) should be at the Linden Memorial Park along with the other people there (Mr Altberg's peers) who also made significant contributions to Second Life. Culturally I find it disrespectful toward Mr Altberg for the LDPW to not have done this   

 

Well, everybody has different cultures. But generally, statues are put up to people in countries AFTER they die. And I think that's a good rule to follow in a virtual world.

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I want to say in this regard that I really did try using this to explore different regions but honestly it just fell short of being user friendly and fun. It is basically just a spreadsheet of mainland sims with very little description as to what they actually are.  The stamp HUD is useless to me as it's 1. huge and 2. you can't even see the stamps on the HUD which makes it less than desirable as a teleport tool. What I am doing is collecting LMs with pictures that I can't see. Unless you can incorporate more of a "destination guide" feel such as a website that hosts pictures and description like LL has I can't say that this is useful, at least for me.  I really did try to like it but I feel it was hyped up to be more than it ended up being in the end.

 

I'm talking about the *Bellisseria* passport game, and you're evidently talking about Operation Mainland's game. And it is good that there are two, quite frankly, and I'm happy to play both. If someone wants to add a third, God bless 'em. The Lindens can never seem to refrain from selecting groups of residents for their partners at the exclusion of others, which is their right. So it's good that at least in principle for THIS select group, anyway, the only clearance is to pay $11.99 per month, get a Belli house, then get approved for a passport based on that ownership. Then get approved as a stamp host, for another level of clearance. 

The Belli passport has updates on the BBB newsletter once a week. There are only a few every week, some Mole locations, some others, increasingly less and less. Perhaps there is a master list of these somewhere, but I haven't seen one, so you need to go by the newsletter inworld or on the web, and keep up. I recently went on the boat tour associated with the BBB's glorious second anniversary, and despite being baby-stepped through it with a HUD that is like Google GPS, I still missed some of the stamps and it was still confusing, as some of the regular sites are. I don't attempt to "get them all" but get enough to find it enjoyable and it never gets boring for me, as it has for other people who tell me so, repeatedly. I think usage is down, and one way you see that is the number of submissions are done as only a few are now offered per week. The stamp Hud can be minimized, and you can see the stamp as soon as it posts.

The biggest problem I have with it is having to remember that it is in inventory under the name "visa" and not "passport" as you have to add multiple extensions to it. I'm on my second one.

Meanwhile, the Operation Mainland list has a web site where all the many sites are listed on a Google spread sheet, and they indeed have descriptions, usually from the land description. They are more descriptions and more granular categorization on the categories. You can sort them by their category and if commercial sites offend you, avoid them. I haven't found the passport HUD cumbersome but you can also just put it on when you get to the stamp terminal only (which the BBB tells you to do on the boat tour). I see the stamps on it so I'm not sure what you mean. I don't see that it needs pictures as...you go there and look at the site itself. The BBB has set pictures it takes where all the Belli houses look alike, so it doesn't really add to the experience.

I also have trouble finding that Operation Mainland passport every time I look even keeping everything related to it in one folder, but I still make use of it and have found some great places I had never heard of.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:37 PM, Kira Trafalgar said:

I and my alt own two homes in Bellissaria, plus I'm also experimenting as a low key land baron   I've chosen to specialize in accessible properties - on Linden roads/paths/byways or with Actual Navigable Water (that last is much harder to find). I also only buy/sell land in "nice" neighborhoods, where (at least when I'm selling) the neighbors seem to be voluntarily sticking to "normal" housing and not a lot of ugliness and visible skyboxes (why would you build a skybox visible to the ground, anyway?). I currently have two properties for sale in the Snowlands neighborhood in the below photo - personal favorite location on Mainland, currently  

I've been moderately successful in both finding, and selling, "nice properties in nice neighborhoods" - so, yes, those properties do exist (owner sell, abandoned, and auction). I do spend a *lot* of time finding them ... and more time waiting for the "long range" view to rez so I can evaluate the neighborhood properly. I do also spend time helping folks who are new to buying Mainland property, since that was me only a couple months ago

 Lying on property listings: Well, that's easy enough to figure out by just visiting the property. It's not like you have to hop on a plane to go see it (like where I live now, which was purchased "sight unseen")... just go there, wait for things to rez, look around, try to go across the water... then start a thread of sellers who are not truthful in their listings....

I'd be a fan of increasing "distance" between the tiers. I'd also be a fan of being able to set properties "for rent" OR "for sale", so that rentals would show up as a different color on the map... I'm pretty sure I've never sold a property through the forums or MP, it's always been people looking for yellow squares on the map....If rentals were, say, orange, it'd be easy to pick out the actual 'for sale' properties from the rentals.
 

I'd also be a fan of more infrastructure, roads, rivers, rails and rez zones. 

I imagine it's a matter of priorities, but I'd love to see LL spend some time on improving those large swaths of abandoned land (there are tons of those, actually) - prime opportunity there to build, perhaps, neighborhoods similar to Bellissaria, but with no houses - just nice roads, themed landscaping/trees/plants in the protected areas, and nice buildable plots of various sizes - start with an auction, maybe, that starts at 25 cents per m2 rather than the current 50c for regular auctions. Some could have Da Rulz (HOA, ugh), and some could be like normal Mainland, just with a more neighborhoody feel.  Maybe make some neighborhoods that can only be purchased by Premium accounts. Variety is the spice of life, and there are many ways to improve the Mainland experience whether you like chaos or order  - but they all take time, effort and man hours to do, which may be the problem if LL has the same issues many employers do these days

Totally not quite on subject, I'd be a huge fan of Belli properties where you can choose any house style currently available, not just a themed neighborhood.

Most people want the tier hikes to be LESSENED, not increased, because currently, even a tiny bit over, say 256 or 512 over a limit, puts you up to the next steep tier level which then causes you to pay way more than you need to, for that little bit of land. Any accidental tier-up like that may not get Linden forbearance for a roll-back -- they do it once as a courtesy and then next time is on you.

The Lindens should make it possible to add small amounts to the tier level of 512, or lesson the hike between the tier levels. They do this out of some old marketing idea that if you upsell to the next level, people will then fill up that larger tier level -- and that's true, as far as it goes. But then after 30 days and getting the bill, that's when the abandonments happen. They would see less abandonment if they made the grades not as steep.

Since the Lindens appear to be planning 4096 lots in Bellisseria in conjunction with the new Premium Plus account, which they say they will roll out this year -- or something like it, maybe only 2048 -- then it makes no sense for them to do this idea of taking old fallow Mainland sims and improving them -- it's work, it's payment of developers (Moles) -- and more governance if they make less rules. So they won't do it. And that means residents have to do it.

[Kira Skydancer]

Meanwhile, poor Kira is looking back and forth between these different arguments ... I had *no* idea there was even a "them and us" sort of mentality between Belli and Mainland or this level of animosity - and I have two Belli homes and buy/sell a small amount of properties on Mainland (and used to rent on Campbell Coast before ownership changed). Oh, and was a staffer on a private island (multiple regions) back in the day. *I* certainly don't differentiate and don't understand why it would matter...

And can't help thinking, SL is a world, Belli and the Mainland continents are like countries... so why can't people work together and make a passport/stamps game for all? Maybe, like RL passports, different in looks between Belli and Mainland, but otherwise the same? Combine the best of both worlds rather than snarking at each other. Sorry, but that's what I'm seeing here, and I've been reading Every Single Post.

Also... on a different subject... Wintercove? Where is that? I have two Snowlands properties in a really nice little valley. Am I in Wintercove and don't even know it? - Feel free to PM me if you don't wanna hijack this thread.

Oh - just for the record, I'm seeing excellent arguments and comments on both sides of this virtual fence. Just sayin'. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Kira Trafalgar
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