Should Any Second Life User Be Allowed To Continue To See Another User's Camera Beacon Location - Privacy Issue?

[Silent Mistwalker]

4 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Has anyone mentioned an actual valid reason for having lookats showing?  Maybe I missed it in the previous pages.

I can't think of a reason someone needs to know where I'm looking.  I also have no idea what use it is to me to know where someone else put their camera.

What debugging use do lookats have?  It's in the code for a reason, I assume.

Quote

The LookAt point is an animation hint, viewers use it to know what way to turn your eyes, head and torso.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Show_Look_At

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Show_Look_At

But what is the reason for showing it?

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

But what is the reason for showing it?

 

 

How else is a human dev going to be able to see where the camera is pointing when it's supposed to be pointing at something else? Sometimes residents need to be able to tell support what they are seeing so they can get the issue resolved.

In short it is how LL debugs camera issues.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

So it's broadcast for everyone?  A dev might  need to see where you're looking to diagnose some kind off problem within the viewer.  How's that useful to residents using the viewer?  What reason could I possibly have to know where your camera is pointing. 

I don't care if it is an option in the viewer. I can turn it off.  I just wanted to see if there was an actual use like in RP or shopping or maybe in a combat region?  What do residents use the lookats for?

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I don't care if it is an option in the viewer. I can turn it off.  I just wanted to see if there was an actual use like in RP or shopping or maybe in a combat region?  What do residents use the lookats for?

I've posted previously that for me there is social aspects to it that I find it good for. After all it is a normal part of everyday r/l interactions that is triggered by the ability to see what another is looking at, why should we not have that capability here in a world that to some degree is mimicking the real? I also think it is important for me to be able to see who might be "stalking" me sometimes as for one example, I sometimes go to a public sandbox to try demo's out at 1000 meters up. There have been times I became aware with the look at that someone was  staring at me while I was changing. Sometimes I will message person to ask them to desist  or I will pack up and return later when they have left. There been times in bed with another where the same happened. I am not a snowflake about it but if there is a voyeur wanting to watch then I want to know who to send an invoice to  To me the look at works for personal privacy and a better level of security when it is turned on as well as social reasons.

[Stephanie Misfit]

10 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

So it's broadcast for everyone?  A dev might  need to see where you're looking to diagnose some kind off problem within the viewer.  How's that useful to residents using the viewer?  What reason could I possibly have to know where your camera is pointing. 

I don't care if it is an option in the viewer. I can turn it off.  I just wanted to see if there was an actual use like in RP or shopping or maybe in a combat region?  What do residents use the lookats for?

I've used them to show other people what they should buy when shopping, example, where the demo is, which colour they should purchase. Some men need a lot of help!

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I've posted previously that for me there is social aspects to it that I find it good for. After all it is a normal part of everyday r/l interactions that is triggered by the ability to see what another is looking at, why should we not have that capability here in a world that to some degree is mimicking the real? I also think it is important for me to be able to see who might be "stalking" me sometimes as for one example, I sometimes go to a public sandbox to try demo's out at 1000 meters up. There have been times I became aware with the look at that someone was  staring at me while I was changing. Sometimes I will message person to ask them to desist  or I will pack up and return later when they have left. There been times in bed with another where the same happened. I am not a snowflake about it but if there is a voyeur wanting to watch then I want to know who to send an invoice to  To me the look at works for personal privacy and a better level of security when it is turned on as well as social reasons.

Sounds like it's used for drama, but thank you at least for answering my question.  I did not say you shouldn't have the ability to see what others are looking at.  I simply asked why you might want it.

3 minutes ago, Stephanie Misfit said:

I've used them to show other people what they should buy when shopping, example, where the demo is, which colour they should purchase. Some men need a lot of help!

Do you have to tell these people how to turn on Lookats or is it on by default?

Thank you for answering the question.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Cinnamon Mistwood

[Rowan Amore]

44 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

What do residents use the lookats for?

Drama mostly.

 

34 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

better level of security when it is turned on as well as social reasons.

How so?  I have mine shut off so you couldn't see if I were camming your avatar while in bed.

There is NO privacy in SL.  The only way to not see an avatar is to have the parcel set so no one outside can see the avatar inside.  That doesn't mean I still can't cam lock on the 'invisible' avatar.  If I had my look at ON, I do believe you'd still see my crosshairs although I couldn't actually SEE you.

ETA:  I must try that with an alt.

ETA:  Tried it with an alt.  She could lock cam on the invisble me inside my parcel but I couldn't see her crosshairs.  So you can see where the avatars are and they can't see that you're looking in.  

Edited January 10, 2022 by Rowan Amore

[colleen Criss]

In all my years in SL this topic never took up any space in my head/view at all. If someone is camming on me I would guess it's a form of flattery. Dunno, don't care.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

How so?  I have mine shut off so you couldn't see if I were camming your avatar while in bed.

If I am in a skybox 500 meters up and you are 100 meters or more away, the odds of you accidently having your crosshairs within the skybox at all are very remote. I think it would be safe to assume you are expressly looking in for whatever reason. Even so, in past in such cases I politely engaged such a one in conversation when I realized they were continuing to look. No drama required. I leave it to others to smash that Report button and I will just engage politely with that person to the degree possible and otherwise go elsewhere till they have left.

[LilNosferatu]

So what I'm getting from this thread is that I should absolutely enable others to see my LookAt and then just go people-watching out in public.

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, LilNosferatu said:

So what I'm getting from this thread is that I should absolutely enable others to see my LookAt and then just go people-watching out in public.

yes indeed

 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

 

15 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

If I am in a skybox 500 meters up and you are 100 meters or more away, the odds of you accidently having your crosshairs within the skybox at all are very remote. I think it would be safe to assume you are expressly looking in for whatever reason. Even so, in past in such cases I politely engaged such a one in conversation when I realized they were continuing to look. No drama required. I leave it to others to smash that Report button and I will just engage politely with that person to the degree possible and otherwise go elsewhere till they have left.

Is camming someone a reportable offense?  Is that like screaming, "Mom!  She's looking at me!"

I am glad you don't report or go into your IMs raging at people.  Sometimes I think new residents don't know that some people can tell where they're looking.  I am sure you taught more than a few newbies to turn off the broadcasting of their lookats.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Weird. I've never had someone yell at me for looking at them.

I occasionally turn on crosshairs when I'm working in a sandbox: generally I have my head down working then, and am not paying a lot of attention to what is going on around me. I've found that the sudden appearance of crosshairs on my avi is a pretty good early warning sign that I'm about to be interrupted.

[LilNosferatu]

21 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Is camming someone a reportable offense?

I've tried looking it up but I haven't found anything that explicitly mentions camming / looking at someone. The closest thing I can really find is the Community Standards > Behavioral Standards, where these two are listed:

• Harassment - Harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner that is offensively coarse, intimidating, threatening, or causes annoyance or alarm is not allowed.
   
• Invasion of Personal Space/Comfort Zones - It is important to respect the personal space of another user. We strongly encourage you to be mindful of your movement, hand gestures, and your avatar’s positioning relative to other avatars.

( source: https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/community-standards )

I suppose people could claim it causes annoyance/alarm or feels intimidating/threatening (harassment) or that it's disrespectful of someone's personal space (invasion of personal space/comfort) -- but I feel like if the only behavior is camming or looking at someone, LL wouldn't really do anything about it (seems like it would fall under the broad category of resident disputes) unless it was accompanied by other behaviors such as spamming gestures or pushing/shooting or other griefing, trolling, etc.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

So it's broadcast for everyone?  A dev might  need to see where you're looking to diagnose some kind off problem within the viewer.  How's that useful to residents using the viewer?  What reason could I possibly have to know where your camera is pointing. 

I don't care if it is an option in the viewer. I can turn it off.  I just wanted to see if there was an actual use like in RP or shopping or maybe in a combat region?  What do residents use the lookats for?

 

You don't need to know where MY camera is pointing just YOURS. It's not for OTHER people to see, it's for YOU to see so you can use that to clarify an issue to LL.

It has been there since day one and LL hasn't seen fit to remove it for a reason. Unless you would rather your cameras and animations just be broken forever.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker
redundant word

[Silent Mistwalker]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Weird. I've never had someone yell at me for looking at them.

I occasionally turn on crosshairs when I'm working in a sandbox: generally I have my head down working then, and am not paying a lot of attention to what is going on around me. I've found that the sudden appearance of crosshairs on my avi is a pretty good early warning sign that I'm about to be interrupted.

I got yelled at about it a few times back in 2005/6 but not since I turned it all off and left it all disabled.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

But what is the reason for showing it?

 

Like most of the debug features left in the viewer, it has limited debug uses, exactly the obvious stuff you would think to use them for.

Using them in a social context with names .. yeah, that only has negative social consequences.

They change behavior .. simple example, rather than reading profiles, you only IM people who's lookat sticks to your avatar for a while. Does being defensive over other avatars caming their partner make someone more or less pleasant to be around. and so on ... 

Subtle shifts in behavior end up having broad consequences.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Like most of the debug features left in the viewer, it has limited debug uses, exactly the obvious stuff you would think to use them for.

Using them in a social context with names .. yeah, that only has negative social consequences.

They change behavior .. simple example, rather than reading profiles, you only IM people who's lookat sticks to your avatar for a while. Does being defensive over other avatars caming their partner make someone more or less pleasant to be around. and so on ... 

Subtle shifts in behavior end up having broad consequences.

Question is whether that warrants the removal of features that others use responsibly. If we start removing everything that may potentially cause an offence to someone, we'd have little left.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Question is whether that warrants the removal of features that others use responsibly. If we start removing everything that may potentially cause an offence to someone, we'd have little left.

It absolutely does warrant it's removal.

EVEN IF

You are using it responsibly, you are still using it. Your actions and decisions are impacted by it.

There is no positive outcome from any decision based on where someone else placed their camera, using that information in place of other more tangible clues is objectively worse every single time.

You could be reading profiles. You could be walking up to avatars that interest you rather than waiting for them to cam you, and so on .. literally anything is better than "bob's camera is near my left shoe, WE HAVE SCORED !! "

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It absolutely does warrant it's removal.

EVEN IF

You are using it responsibly, you are still using it. Your actions and decisions are impacted by it.

There is no positive outcome from any decision based on where someone else placed their camera, using that information in place of other more tangible clues is objectively worse every single time.

You could be reading profiles. You could be walking up to avatars that interest you rather than waiting for them to cam you, and so on .. literally anything is better than "bob's camera is near my left shoe, WE HAVE SCORED !! "

I do all what you mention and STILL find the Look At feature an interesting addition that I use both to let others know I am looking at them (In a singles club for example) and to be aware of who might be looking at me.....sort of like real life you know?

If some take offence at being looked at then maybe its time to consider they might need to grow up a bit because it is going to happen in real so hopefully one can get over it in virtual at least. The alternative is to remove everything that might give offence to 13 year olds so we can then promote S/L to 13 year olds like IMVU and Meta. Is that a solution we want?

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The alternative is to remove everything that might give offence to 13 year olds so we can then promote S/L to 13 year olds like IMVU and Meta. Is that a solution we want?

Correction: remove everything that might give offense to the parents of 13 year olds. "Everything that might give offense to 13 year olds" is basically a null set.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I think on balance I'd be against removing it, because in general I am against removing anything that empowers us. And this is just another tool that we have at our disposal.

But then, as I said, it's never (that I can recall) impacted negatively on my experience. And certainly, any tool can be misused, as it appears that this one sometimes is.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I do all what you mention and STILL find the Look At feature an interesting addition that I use both to let others know I am looking at them (In a singles club for example) and to be aware of who might be looking at me.....sort of like real life you know?

But you can't assume the other person has them turned on, or is even using a viewer where names are shown.

So .. how many encounters did you miss because they didn't respond to you caming them really hard.

 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

I don't think it should be removed, but it wouldn't impact my life inworld at all if it was.  I just wanted to know what responsible uses it had to residents as they wander the world.  I got a couple answers.  So, thanks.

Like I said, I just turn it off.  If someone is camming my coochie in a public area, what am I going to do about it anyway?  I am in a public location.  People can see that while camming or not. I have some choices - confront them, call them out publicly, leave the area, block the person, go "home" where I have parcel settings for privacy.  People can derender clothes as well and I don't want the derender feature removed.