Should Any Second Life User Be Allowed To Continue To See Another User's Camera Beacon Location - Privacy Issue?

[NiranV Dean]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

Yes, I know. You can't possibly be wrong about anything. 

If you really cared about people who use your viewer and the rest of us who absolutely refuse to deal with YOU, you would find someone to act as liaison and stop treating people as if they were all too stupid to deal with.

Step on the hatebrakes there.

I don't treat people like they are too stupid to deal with, I wouldn't be offering personal help so freely if I did, neither would i be giving out said guide to do it themselves, let alone talk to them.

I'm trying to find a compromise (despite hating compromises) that makes everyone happy, I'm trying to include what Firestorm told me (despite believing its utter bs) that they think its a tool to make sure people are looking at the right thing when they do their Firestorm Viewer lessons, I'm trying to let them continue using the ability to see beacons (and their names), thus retaining the usefulness of both features, while keeping it out of malicious hands.

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

People aren't using BD for a myriad of reasons.  If Look At were such an issue, less people would be using Firestorm and more people would use the SL viewer? 

People who have it turned on just to complain about people looking are hardly people you should be concerned about.  They would just find something else to whine about.

 

I'm not only concerned about those and you are right, they will find other things to whine about, as they always do but again that's no reason to simply ignore an issue that has been here for many years. While the way they may complain and the reasoning the have may not be good, the underlying message, that this feature (in combination with names) is causing unnecessary drama which could easily be shut down before it even begins is still there.

Edited January 9, 2022 by NiranV Dean

[StarlanderGoods]

26 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

So you are saying i should just continue ignoring the complains of my users and users that won't use my Viewer because they feel unsafe using it due to a missing "hide lookat" feature that is a poor excuse to solve a self-inflicted issue?

Im about to solve all your problems, get the "look at" option off by default in your viewer, lock it down behind an "advanced" menu that you have to enable from somewhere else.

You are welcome.

[NiranV Dean]

Just now, StarlanderGoods said:

Im about to solve all your problems, get the "look at" option off by default in your viewer, lock it down behind an "advanced" menu that you have to enable from somewhere else.

You are welcome.

Is this sarcasm?

The past has clearly proven that this hasn't worked out, especially not when its sharing its "Advanced" menu with many other often used options and when the menu is one of the very first things most people will immediately enable when starting to use a new viewer (or reconfiguring the same). Also the feature IS off by default in any Viewer. Also me doing this, especially alone doesn't solve the issue at hand, i'd just be locking out the maybe handful of people on my Viewer trying to abuse it (and i'm sure they are having a hard time without lookat names), i'd be cutting down a bush in a jungle.

But thanks for your constructive criticism though.

 

No seriously what is it with you guys hating on me so much? What have i done to you? I see a topic, i post my opinion and reasoning and go the lengths of offering a solution that includes as much of the good parts as possible while preventing as much of the bad as possible without straight up removing the feature (which in the past was my go-to request for lookat names). I'm the good guy trying to do good things but you just start attacking and insulting me and my Viewer for no reason, you are shooting your own foot here.

[Arielle Popstar]

18 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

I'm trying to find a compromise (despite hating compromises) that makes everyone happy, I'm trying to include what Firestorm told me (despite believing its utter bs) that they think its a tool to make sure people are looking at the right thing when they do their Firestorm Viewer lessons, I'm trying to let them continue using the ability to see beacons (and their names), thus retaining the usefulness of both features, while keeping it out of malicious hands.

I'm not only concerned about those and you are right, they will find other things to whine about, as they always do but again that's no reason to simply ignore an issue that has been here for many years. While the way they may complain and the reasoning the have may not be good, the underlying message, that this feature (in combination with names) is causing unnecessary drama which could easily be shut down before it even begins is still there.

I just started up my BD viewer which is all at default and I don't see "look at" turned on nor have I yet been able to find where to turn it on. If others have found it and then turned it on and are then complaining about it, they have gone out of their way to make it a problem. This is something I use as a socializing feature which mimics R/L in the sense that being able to see who is looking at me and being able to see where I am looking is a very basic function of human interaction. We have AO's and bento expressions for the ability to also communicate in a non verbal way with others, going to disable them too because someone has an issue with seductive poses and expressions?

Ps, where is this BD guide for where to find the Look At toggle? Preferences search isn't showing it.

[LilNosferatu]

I'm honestly, genuinely curious as to how the LookAt feature is "abused".

Is there an actual way to "abuse" this feature, or is it in the same vein as people in public claiming that other people looking at them is harassment?

[NiranV Dean]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

I just started up my BD viewer which is all at default and I don't see "look at" turned on nor have I yet been able to find where to turn it on. If others have found it and then turned it on and are then complaining about it, they have gone out of their way to make it a problem. This is something I use as a socializing feature which mimics R/L in the sense that being able to see who is looking at me and being able to see where I am looking is a very basic function of human interaction. We have AO's and bento expressions for the ability to also communicate in a non verbal way with others, going to disable them too because someone has an issue with seductive poses and expressions?

Ps, where is this BD guide for where to find the Look At toggle? Preferences search isn't showing it.

Well that's what I'm saying, people are going out of their ways to cause problems, they are willingly doing so, this is malicious intend. Also i think you mean people are not enabling it and then complaining about it, because that's not the issue. The issue is people getting IMed because they have been camming around, they get directly attacked for doing what is completely normal in SL.

The guide has been posted a couple posts back:  http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Show_Look_At

Just now, LilNosferatu said:

I'm honestly, genuinely curious as to how the LookAt feature is "abused".

Is there an actual way to "abuse" this feature, or is it in the same vein as people in public claiming that other people looking at them is harassment?

Okay, explanation since you don't know what's happening here or what i'm actually complaining about, maybe others didn't understand this either:

Lookat itself can be abused to see who is looking at what (or more specifically who), although it is hard at times because it does not show names, so you'd have to do some piecing together yourself. Firestorm (and a couple other Viewers) offer showing names on said lookat beacons, which makes it incredibly easy to see who is looking at who, this has caused lots of people mostly willingly, IM the person who is looking at them, often with malicious intend. They start insulting, attacking, harassing people for what is... well normal in SL, looking around.

Personally i'd say man the f*** up and ignore it or give em hell but not everyone can or wants to do this. I'm notorious for going into public places where users have reported to be harassed by such people and camming on them, trying to get a reaction (so far unsuccessful every time) to show them what happens if they do this to someone who doesn't take up with your stupid *****. I'm a firm believer that these people need a good old slap in their face. I sadly can't however expect everyone to stand their ground and/or ignore it. That's why i've been trying in the past to request the removal of lookat names to put a stop to easy harassment. Today i'm offering a better solution than outright removal.

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by NiranV Dean

[StarlanderGoods]

6 minutes ago, LilNosferatu said:

I'm honestly, genuinely curious as to how the LookAt feature is "abused".

Is there an actual way to "abuse" this feature, or is it in the same vein as people in public claiming that other people looking at them is harassment?

Its not abused in any other way, its just a dev, conveniently claiming that only devs should be able to use Look At.

[Marigold Devin]

6 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

Well that's what I'm saying, people are going out of their ways to cause problems, they are willingly doing so, this is malicious intend. Also i think you mean people are not enabling it and then complaining about it, because that's not the issue. The issue is people getting IMed because they have been camming around, they get directly attacked for doing what is completely normal in SL.

The guide has been posted a couple posts back:  http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Show_Look_At

Can't you just block the drama llamas from accessing your viewer so they have to use one more suitable for their own needs, ie the Second Life official one (that doesn't have the Show Lookat feature does it?). Or would you get into trouble with Linden Lab for playing god quite that much?

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

Well that's what I'm saying, people are going out of their ways to cause problems, they are willingly doing so, this is malicious intend. Also i think you mean people are not enabling it and then complaining about it, because that's not the issue. The issue is people getting IMed because they have been camming around, they get directly attacked for doing what is completely normal in SL.

The guide has been posted a couple posts back:  http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Show_Look_At

But it is wrong for your viewer as I finally found it under the Develop menu->Avatar-> Show Look At 

[NiranV Dean]

Just now, Marigold Devin said:

Can't you just block the drama llamas from accessing your viewer so they have to use one more suitable for their own needs, ie the Second Life official one (that doesn't have the Show Lookat feature does it?). Or would you get into trouble with Linden Lab for playing god quite that much?

I have seen people getting blocked on other Viewers (no names) and i have done the same in a single extreme case myself. I'm not sure how accepted it is by Linden Labs but i don't like the idea of excluding people from using a product they might want to use unless i absolutely deem it necessary and outright blocking people from accessing my Viewer for a bit of drama (or some complains) is quite an overkill which I'm sure would quickly find its way into the internet and just prove rumors I've seen going around of me apparently banning anyone who dares talking bad about me or my Viewer and i'd like to keep these rumors be just that, rumors.

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

But it is wrong for your viewer as I finally found it under the Develop menu->Avatar-> Show Look At 

No, it is correct. You probably read the part for pre-Viewer 2.0.

Edited January 9, 2022 by NiranV Dean

[Arielle Popstar]

8 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

No, it is correct. You probably read the part for pre-Viewer 2.0.

Ok but don't you have some documentation for your viewer like FS has? I've looked in past but couldn't find anything and some things I really need help with in setting your viewer up so while you are here I thought I'd ask,

[Qie Niangao]

As far as I can tell, it's the same in most viewers as in the Linden viewer, which requires non-default activation of the Develop menu, from which Avatar / Show Look At appears. The exception (again, as far as I can tell) is Firestorm, which exposes the option in the Preferences / Privacy / LookAt tab, no need to enable the Developer menu.

It would certainly be possible to hide it all under raw Debug settings, which experienced users (and developers) know how to use but I'm not sure that would be much of an improvement over the Developer menu. Hiding it there, or under some more obscure viewer "God Mode" could have the unintended consequence of making everybody use that mode more often, getting themselves into even more customer support quandries.

One thing that I don't recall seeing in this thread but seems it could eventually be very relevant: If they go ahead with the announced plan to use camera-sensed facial gestures to control the avatar expression, the direction the avatar head and eyes are pointing would seem pretty significant, so turning off the sending of LookAt could lead to Shakespearean farce as well as SL drama.

[LilNosferatu]

1 minute ago, StarlanderGoods said:

Its not abused in any other way, its just a dev, conveniently claiming that only devs should be able to use Look At.

Only police officers & government officials are allowed to use their eyeballs openly in public.
Civilians must wear sunglasses or other devices to conceal where their eyes are pointed.
That way, no one can confront or harass innocent bystanders about what they're looking at.

. . . yes, that sounds absolutely reasonable. 🤣 

Honestly I think if anyone IM'd me because they were mad that I was looking at them in SL, I would just laugh and block them. Anyone who responds by contacting the viewer dev demanding to change that feature because someone was mean to them is equally immature, imo. People are goofy, if they cause drama over people looking at them, that's not -- and shouldn't be -- anyone else's problem.

[Lucia Nightfire]

Next on the chopping block: Derendering

Because I live in fear that my naughty bits might be exposed without my knowledge and ogled by horny teens or worse, horny old men!

/me faints

[NiranV Dean]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Ok but don't you have some documentation for your viewer like FS has? I've looked in past but couldn't find anything and some things I really need help with in setting your viewer up so while you are here I thought I'd ask,

That is true I do not have anything that could be called a documentation. It is probably time to get started on that at some point. In the past I've delayed this due to the fast and massive changes to the UI which would often and quickly invalidate these documentations and would make editing them a constant thing, anyone who keeps a wiki updated knows this is a lot of work.

However, I've made several attempts to have some sort of in-Viewer in-UI guide/explanation ready, most of the features give an explanation as to what they do and what they impact, I recommend reading them, they can be quite helpful and will usually be up-to-date and often warn you of any issues (they also sometimes give helpful insight into other features that they work together with). Apart from that there is the FAQ, a couple blogposts that go to explain a couple features and help with a couple common things, there is also a Forum post here with some very helpful little tips and tricks about the Viewer (link) and the Discord has a guides channel written by me and users alike who try to explain some of the more complicated things in the Viewer. Alternatively you can ask in the Discord, or contact me inworld or on Discord (or here if you just tag me or yell loud enough), given you do not fear interacting with me or downright avoid me like some people here claim to do.

[NiranV Dean]

Just now, Lucia Nightfire said:

Next on the chopping block: Derendering

Because I live in fear that my naughty bits might be exposed without my knowledge and ogled by horny teens or worse, horny old men!

/me faints

Ohhhhno...nononono... *vietnam flashbacks* i've been taking quite some heavy flak (by the very same person who i banned from using my Viewer) about this feature and funny enough it is never mentioned that said feature exists in all Third Party Viewers, it apparently solely exists in my Viewer!

Edited January 9, 2022 by NiranV Dean

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Next on the chopping block: Derendering

Because I live in fear that my naughty bits might be exposed without my knowledge and ogled by horny teens or worse, horny old men!

/me faints

SL is a social platform, the capabilities in the client have social outcomes, this places some responsibility on the shoulders of viewer developers to think about how features can and will be used.

In Catznip, we allow session and permanent derendering of objects, but not an avatars clothing.

 

Personally, I've had random people walk up to me, derender my outfit, get up in my IM's with the screenshot and unload a torrent of negative commentary. Ok Beavis. 

[NiranV Dean]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

SL is a social platform, the capabilities in the client have social outcomes, this places some responsibility on the shoulders of viewer developers to think about how features can and will be used.

In Catznip, we allow session and permanent derendering of objects, but not an avatars clothing.

 

Personally, I've had random people walk up to me, derender my outfit, get up in my IM's with the screenshot and unload a torrent of negative commentary. Ok Beavis. 

Now that is an interesting solution. I didn't think of that! I should prevent attachment derendering too.

EDIT: I should also totally still allow derendering your clothing and yours only so i can act like a random person, walk up to you, derender your outfit, IM you with screenshots and a torrent of negative commentary all the while standing naked right next to you so you can complain about me not wearing pants and having boobs on lizards.

Edited January 9, 2022 by NiranV Dean

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, NiranV Dean said:

Now that is an interesting solution. I didn't think of that! I should prevent attachment derendering too.

But does that disallow me to r-click and detach my own personal clothing? Some clothing items in FS have that issue where when I r-click and detach, it detaches my body  instead of the clothing item. Total Pita!

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

But does that disallow me to r-click and detach my own personal clothing? Some clothing items in FS have that issue where when I r-click and detach, it detaches my body  instead of the clothing item. Total Pita!

Detach is an entirely different thing.  I always detach from inventory after detaching something  mistakenly.

[NiranV Dean]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

But does that disallow me to r-click and detach my own personal clothing? Some clothing items in FS have that issue where when I r-click and detach, it detaches my body  instead of the clothing item. Total Pita!

That's a common issue with selecting rigged meshes. I'm not sure why a fix for this has never been made yet (or has it?). Despite the click function having optional more expensive ways of raycasting, these still do not help right-clicking meshes most of the time.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Detach is an entirely different thing.  I always detach from inventory after detaching something  mistakenly.

Yes I get that but I find doing it through the Inventory is not as convenient as so often the names of the items are a bit of a jumble with not being able to rename them to something that actually includes the english term for shoes etc. R-click is faster and more intuitive.

[Paul Hexem]

33 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Personally, I've had random people walk up to me, derender my outfit, get up in my IM's with the screenshot and unload a torrent of negative commentary. Ok Beavis.

I just got a wonderful idea for another new "picture" thread.

TPV devs should leave attachment derendering in.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Paul Hexem

[Coffee Pancake]

26 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

But does that disallow me to r-click and detach my own personal clothing? Some clothing items in FS have that issue where when I r-click and detach, it detaches my body  instead of the clothing item. Total Pita!

Right clicking rigged mesh is a bit hit and miss. To put it in simple terms, the rigged mesh isn't where you see it in world, it could be somewhere else and you're not right clicking on that. Thank Kitty we can right click on it even half the time

[NiranV Dean]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

Right clicking rigged mesh is a bit hit and miss. To put it in simple terms, the rigged mesh isn't where you see it in world, it could be somewhere else and you're not right clicking on that. Thank Kitty we can right click on it even half the time

Wouldn't the solution be force updating the mesh to be in the position we see it (with transforms) when right clicking (potentially make it an option if it causes a massive framerate hitch)? Doing a full forced update for the mesh on a right click should be fine, its not like its done every frame. An alternative would be an implementation that doesn't attempt to check for the actual mesh but the transformed visual (possibly a copy of it?) that we see.