NextUP and other Gacha Replacements are still Gacha

[Chris Corvinus]

The conveyor gachas are still gachas. It doesn’t matter if you can see what you’re buying. I’ve played one to test it out and it’s still randomized, you can still get two or 3 or 4 of the same thing (or more). You can still pay thousands of linden and never get the whole set. It’s still a form of gambling. It still targets addiction. The only reason people created these non-gacha gacha machines is GREED because they easily could have gone with fatpacks.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Chris Nova

[Chic Aeon]

11 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

It doesn’t matter if you can see what you’re buying.

It absolutely matters to ME. Then it is much (you have to come back and wait and such to find what you want as the next item) the same as buying a no copy item off the floor.  Back in the day MOST items were no copy and if you wanted four chairs you BOUGHT four chairs. On the plus side if you didn't like the sweater you bought (no demos then) you could pass it along to a friend who might like it.  Creators made a lot more money with no copy items even if there wasn't CHANCE involved.  And some Home and Garden stores still only sell no copy items.  

 

 

[Finite]

5 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I think you meant either "NO Copy & Transfer" or "Copy & NO Transfer".  No merchant would give you an item that is both Copy and Transfer because then you could sell as many copies of it as you wanted.

ha yes mb xD. fixed it. ty 

[Finite]

2 hours ago, Chris Nova said:

The conveyor gachas are still gachas. It doesn’t matter if you can see what you’re buying. I’ve played one to test it out and it’s still randomized, you can still get two or 3 or 4 of the same thing (or more). You can still pay thousands of linden and never get the whole set. It’s still a form of gambling. It still targets addiction. The only reason people created these non-gacha gacha machines is GREED because they easily could have gone with fatpacks.

You can throw the "greed" term around anywhere. I don't see how every gacha creator gets the label. Sure some were greedy. But some also weren't. Some did gachas because they knew they had a base of customers that enjoyed them. Me personally have only came across less than a handful of ones I'd consider greedy. But I also generally shop in an ever growing bubble of merchants and events that I know and trust. So I can only see from my perspective.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Finite

[Robin Kiyori]

On 10/3/2021 at 6:02 AM, Chris Nova said:

There is absolutely a link between autism and addiction.

Not just Autism either, But ADHD, BiPolar Disorder (Especially during manic episodes) and a allot of other neurodivergance condintions.

Mental Illness is also a factor that gambling and gaming companies live to expoilt.

[Robin Kiyori]

On 10/2/2021 at 8:20 PM, Sammy Huntsman said:

I am sorry, but the thing is, I have ADHD and I am on the Autism spectrum. I am one of those people she is talking about. But I certainly don't get dopamine rushes when I play this, nor do I even buy into it. So I don't know what you are talking about. I mean this seems kinda ableist, as you are basically saying we can't control our urges. Like we are somehow impaired. I can control my urges quite well. I don't like the system but I don't see it as a problem, I see it as a solution to the problem. 

That's great for you!

But I am also Autistic and I do get those rushes.  I DO struggle with those impulses.  So do allot of other ND people. It is one of the ways our neurodiversity can impact on us. It isn't ableism, it's a truth for a good number of us. That's why it's called a Spectrum.

[Arielle Popstar]

10 minutes ago, Robin Kiyori said:

That's great for you!

But I am also Autistic and I do get those rushes.  I DO struggle with those impulses.  So do allot of other ND people. It is one of the ways our neurodiversity can impact on us. It isn't ableism, it's a truth for a good number of us. That's why it's called a Spectrum.

Not to be unkind but in my own almost 30 year involvement with various addiction recovery programs, it is my view that those who struggled the most with attaining success in dealing with their addictions, were those who attributed some aspect of their perceived psychological uniqueness as being to blame for any failures. Those who had the various mental health challenges but would not use them as a justification and simply worked the recovery program, would succeed to the degree that others did.

[Cinos Field]

It's pretty obvious that the Lindens support the gambling aspect and the gacha ban was merely to cover some very specific local law. Yes, functionally and ethically the new gachas are just the same but legally they aren't.

Though I've at least not heard of anyone willingly playing them yet. The biggest ex-gacha event I know went to straight direct sales instead and seems to be doing pretty well.

[Finite]

9 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

It's pretty obvious that the Lindens support the gambling aspect and the gacha ban was merely to cover some very specific local law. Yes, functionally and ethically the new gachas are just the same but legally they aren't.

Though I've at least not heard of anyone willingly playing them yet. The biggest ex-gacha event I know went to straight direct sales instead and seems to be doing pretty well.

It had nothing to do with any laws. There's potential to be laws or a law down the line. There's at least some rumblings of that but no laws exist currently locally, statewide or federally. It's more to do about scrutiny. They don't want to be regulated a certain way and the less scrutiny they get the more they can stay in their comfort bubble in operating SL. As consumers of and creators of content within Secondlife we probably also don't want Secondlife to be regulated as say something like Tilia is.

[Elysienne Nebula]

On 10/2/2021 at 1:36 PM, Zia Underwood said:

I don't even know who you are.   I don't see Linden at the end of your name so my guess is you aren't in charge of policy.  So to reiterate the rest of my cherry picked post. This wasn't for you.

Yet you posted to the forums instead of writing directly to the Lindens. 

[Solar Legion]

Robin, not all ND types are going to agree with you. Some may even bristle at what you're doing.

Count this as at least one, doing both.

[Qie Niangao]

10 hours ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

In that line of reasoning: Linden Lab better ban all those depraved adult regions too then.

Well yeah, but presumably the LL lawyers were trying to avoid relegating neo-gachas to Adult regions with nation-restricted access, as they were forced to do with (their version of) "skill-based" gaming. It's actually risky for the Lab that the gacha restrictions can't be based on any stable set of laws, nationally or internationally, because a churning stew of such "loot box laws" are pending in various jurisdictions and are only delayed in the US on the dubious promise of industry "self-regulation." Visibly performing such "self-regulation" may be the whole point of LL's gacha ban.

[Polenth Yue]

15 hours ago, Cinos Field said:

Though I've at least not heard of anyone willingly playing them yet. The biggest ex-gacha event I know went to straight direct sales instead and seems to be doing pretty well.

People are going to be hesitant about investing in something that might get banned in six months. Maybe these machines will take off once everything is stable and it doesn't look like they're going to be banned, but I don't see them suddenly being everywhere by next week. I haven't actually hit a shop with one on a hunt yet, whereas a lot of those shops had gachas. Complaints seem based on the theory that these will be as big as gacha, rather than it being a reality at the moment.

I don't really have a moral view on them either way. If they contain little pets or the like where every prize is great, I might play one. If only the rare is worth something and the rest is junk, I won't. Much like I did with gachas.

[Zia Underwood]

https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/10/22618221/gaming-video-games-loot-box-blizzard-trahan-markey-castor

[Zia Underwood]

https://www.pcgamer.com/behind-the-addictive-psychology-and-seductive-art-of-loot-boxes/

[Sammy Huntsman]

What these new systems are are a sales gimmick. I will give you an example, you want to buy a shirt from a store and well you don't need to buy the FP. So you buy that one shirt. Basically this conveyor system, is that with a randomizer and rares and commons. So they basically just added more complexity to a sales system, we have used for over a decade. That is literally all it is. I mean with the time they took to create this, they could have put all that creative energy into normal sales items, and got the same amount of money back. But no, they make work arounds and act like if they don't have it. That it will be a great depression in SL, similar to that of the 1930s. 

[Zia Underwood]

 

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Zia Underwood said:

 

We get that you don't like it, but as of now. That is not gambling, there is no mystery to what item you are gonna get. What you at that moment is what you are gonna get. I think I already explained it well using my shirt example. You see brown shirt, you buy brown shirt. Now put it into a machine, and add a randomizer, so after a certain amount of time the item changes to another randomly picked one in the set. But you still see the item you are buying. It's just a more complex normal sales machine. I don't like the system either, but I don't see it as much as gambling as gacha. 

[Finite]

Just because I can do a google search and post links that supports my agenda.

https://askanydifference.com/difference-between-gacha-game-and-loot-box/

Just because..

https://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2016/jan/26/earth-totally-flat-conspiracy-bob

[Zia Underwood]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

We get that you don't like it, but as of now. That is not gambling, there is no mystery to what item you are gonna get. What you at that moment is what you are gonna get. I think I already explained it well using my shirt example. You see brown shirt, you buy brown shirt. Now put it into a machine, and add a randomizer, so after a certain amount of time the item changes to another randomly picked one in the set. But you still see the item you are buying. It's just a more complex normal sales machine. I don't like the system either, but I don't see it as much as gambling as gacha. 

Its gambling.  No matter how it is legally defined it behaves the same way as gambling does within the brain.  Which means it runs afoul of the same problems and should be held to the same regulatory standards as a baseline response.

[Rowan Amore]

Video games are addicting.  SL can be addicting for some people.  Cigarettes and alcohol are addicting as well as bad for your health.  None of these things are illegal either.  Gachas aren't illegal.  LL has just decided to be preemptive and ban them not for YOUR benefit or mine but to avoid litigation (possibly) down the road.  

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Zia Underwood said:

Its gambling.  No matter how it is legally defined it behaves the same way as gambling does within the brain.  Which means it runs afoul of the same problems and should be held to the same regulatory standards as a baseline response.

From a legal standpoint, Gambling is a game of chance. Meaning that since we know what we are buying, that takes away the game of chance aspect that gachas used. And we don't use neurological or mental issues to determine laws. With your logic, they should get rid of all the stores in SL and get rid of MP. As shopping gives the same boost of dopamine that gambling does in people's brains. 

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Zia Underwood said:

Its gambling.  No matter how it is legally defined it behaves the same way as gambling does within the brain.  Which means it runs afoul of the same problems and should be held to the same regulatory standards as a baseline response.

Gambling, by definition, requires an element of chance which is not present in the new machines.  You get what you pay for, simple as that.  Personally, I don't like them.  

[Zia Underwood]

8 minutes ago, Finite said:

Just because I can do a google search and post links that supports my agenda.

https://askanydifference.com/difference-between-gacha-game-and-loot-box/

Just because..

https://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2016/jan/26/earth-totally-flat-conspiracy-bob

Okay so the first one isnt a credible source.  The fact that one of the first paragraphs states that cellphone gaming was the the origin of gacha mechanics is enough to prove that.

EAs UEFI Champions League is where it began.  The now CEO put them into use and its why its called the Wallace Lootbox. and the other isn't relevant to the discussion at hand.  Logical fallacies wont be how you win this argument.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Zia Underwood

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Video games are addicting.  SL can be addicting for some people.  Cigarettes and alcohol are addicting as well as bad for your health.  None of these things are illegal either.  Gachas aren't illegal.  LL has just decided to be preemptive and ban them not for YOUR benefit or mine but to avoid litigation (possibly) down the road.  

With her logic, we might as well ban everything that we as humans can get addicted to.