the telepathy thread

[Arielle Popstar]

26 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

There is a huge delay (minimally about 7 seconds) between something being registered by your brain and you being made aware of any decision based on that information. Faster reactions have almost no time for conscious input at all, physical reactions take priority and can occur automatically (some don't even involve active thought at all, eg instinct). Reactions might seem instant, but that's because the response process is initiated before the decision has been finished & presented, taking a breath, opening preamble, preparing to type or write, etc.

When I consider a 7 second delay for a decision in the context of driving in traffic, I think 7 seconds is an awfully long time to make a choice dependent on multiple variables. There would be quite a few more accidents if that was the case.

[Rowan Amore]

45 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Instinct.

Exactly.  Some people listen to it and some people ignore it.  Modern humans don't need their instincts nearly as much as early humans who needed it to survive.  

I do believe some people are more able to 'listen' to the subtleties of natural instinct and can perceive what others ignore.  Some call it a 6th sense and make it seem all mystical.  But you're right.  It's just instinct in my opinion.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Instinct.

Oh but I definitely think there is a difference between instinct and intuition. Instinct is more something one learns with a repeated choice whereas intuition is more an ability to understand or have an insight into something without conscious reasoning.

https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-instinct-and-vs-intuition/

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Exactly.  Some people listen to it and some people ignore it.  Modern humans don't need their instincts nearly as much as early humans who needed it to survive.  

I do believe some people are more able to 'listen' to the subtleties of natural instinct and can perceive what others ignore.  Some call it a 6th sense and make it seem all mystical.  But you're right.  It's just instinct in my opinion.

We need our instincts to survive as much now, if not more so, than what we did before we were "civilized".

I don't think it's perceiving what others ignore so much as it is others are no longer capable of it. Or have suppressed it so deeply it can no longer be retrieved. That is not a good thing when it comes to the survival of the species.

There is more to instinct than kneejerk reactions.

[Coffee Pancake]

  

12 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

When I consider a 7 second delay for a decision in the context of driving in traffic, I think 7 seconds is an awfully long time to make a choice dependent on multiple variables. There would be quite a few more accidents if that was the case.

This is why skills like driving require practice and persistence.

When driving, most of the time, you're on autopilot. The decisions and reactions happen prior to conscious awareness .. which is why driving long distances on highways gets boring and why people are able to drive and play with their phones at the same time. Driving is a priority physical task, like walking or not chewing your own tongue. That's not to say driving is a task devoid of conscious thought, more that conscious thought is tasked with a different role.

Most of the conscious activity is focused on information gathering.

This is why learner drivers are terrible, they have to focus on both the act of driving and everything else.

7 seconds is a huge delay, but our frame of reference is such that we can't appreciate it.

[Silent Mistwalker]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Oh but I definitely think there is a difference between instinct and intuition. Instinct is more something one learns with a repeated choice whereas intuition is more an ability to understand or have an insight into something without conscious reasoning.

https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-instinct-and-vs-intuition/

All humans are born with instinct and intuition. The species would not have survived to evolve for as long as it has without either of them. It's a symbiotic relationship.

[Ceka Cianci]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Oh but I definitely think there is a difference between instinct and intuition. Instinct is more something one learns with a repeated choice whereas intuition is more an ability to understand or have an insight into something without conscious reasoning.

https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-instinct-and-vs-intuition/

Instinct is like blinking and shivers and things like that..

What you're talking about is being aware of things you've had experience with before.. that's just experience..

[Moondira]

9 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Instinct is like blinking and shivers and things like that..

Those are examples of reflexes, not instincts.

"Instincts are inborn complex patterns of behavior that exist in most members of the species, and should be distinguished from reflexes, which are simple responses of an organism to a specific stimulus, such as the contraction of the pupil in response to bright light or the spasmodic movement of the lower leg when the knee is tapped".

[Arielle Popstar]

29 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

All humans are born with instinct and intuition. The species would not have survived to evolve for as long as it has without either of them. It's a symbiotic relationship.

I think you are right we are all born with those abilities but we don't all practice them especially the intuition aspect. Intuition to me is like the time when I had a job driving a mobile refreshment truck and one day as I was on my way to the sites I serviced, I was getting this niggling sense I should check my propane tank levels. I had filled them the day before so should have had enough to last the week but I decided to pay attention to the "feeling" and check it anyway. Sure enough they were almost empty as one of the fittings was not tight and the tanks were almost empty and would not have lasted for my shift. To me that was intuition as there was no logical reason for me to think about the tank levels as I should have had enough for several more days and it was not something that would have normally come to mind.

For that matter, some of the biggest challenges I have faced in life were as a result of not paying attention to some little niggling sense of something not right that wound up causing a lot of problems.

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I think you are right we are all born with those abilities but we don't all practice them especially the intuition aspect. Intuition to me is like the time when I had a job driving a mobile refreshment truck and one day as I was on my way to the sites I serviced, I was getting this niggling sense I should check my propane tank levels. I had filled them the day before so should have had enough to last the week but I decided to pay attention to the "feeling" and check it anyway. Sure enough they were almost empty as one of the fittings was not tight and the tanks were almost empty and would not have lasted for my shift. To me that was intuition as there was no logical reason for me to think about the tank levels as I should have had enough for several more days and it was not something that would have normally come to mind.

For that matter, some of the biggest challenges I have faced in life were as a result of not paying attention to some little niggling sense of something not right that wound up causing a lot of problems.

Propane has a distinct odor to it intentionally. You probably caught a whiff of it without it registering. That's when the niggling starts. And it usually won't stop nagging at you until you look into it. That's instinct, not intuition.

Most of what we do in that respect is instinct. It's the intuition that leads to using the instinct even when we don't recognize it for what it is. When you encounter something like a bad smell you are going to do one of two things. You are going to investigate or avoid. Avoiding would be pure instinct. Investigating would be intuition. Not the best analogy but it will have to do for the moment.

[Arielle Popstar]

6 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Propane has a distinct odor to it intentionally. You probably caught a whiff of it without it registering. That's when the niggling starts. And it usually won't stop nagging at you until you look into it. That's instinct, not intuition.

Most of what we do in that respect is instinct. It's the intuition that leads to using the instinct even when we don't recognize it for what it is. When you encounter something like a bad smell you are going to do one of two things. You are going to investigate or avoid. Avoiding would be pure instinct. Investigating would be intuition. Not the best analogy but it will have to do for the moment.

I understand what you mean but with 2 temperature controlled burners kicking on and off regularly, the smell of propane was always there when stopped. In this case it was something that came up out of the blue and for a change, I decided to check instead of just ignoring it. I think it is the paying attention to it that makes one increasingly sensitive and though wrong at times, become increasingly adept at recognizing times it is something that should be followed. 

[Ceka Cianci]

20 hours ago, Moondira said:

Those are examples of reflexes, not instincts.

"Instincts are inborn complex patterns of behavior that exist in most members of the species, and should be distinguished from reflexes, which are simple responses of an organism to a specific stimulus, such as the contraction of the pupil in response to bright light or the spasmodic movement of the lower leg when the knee is tapped".

Blinking is an instinct,so is yawning and breathing.. Shivers might not be.

[Madelaine McMasters]

12 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

12 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

There is a huge delay (minimally about 7 seconds) between something being registered by your brain and you being made aware of any decision based on that information. Faster reactions have almost no time for conscious input at all, physical reactions take priority and can occur automatically (some don't even involve active thought at all, eg instinct). Reactions might seem instant, but that's because the response process is initiated before the decision has been finished & presented, taking a breath, opening preamble, preparing to type or write, etc.

When I consider a 7 second delay for a decision in the context of driving in traffic, I think 7 seconds is an awfully long time to make a choice dependent on multiple variables. There would be quite a few more accidents if that was the case.

Coffee did not say it takes seven seconds to make a decision, Arielle.

She said it can take least seven seconds or more for subconscious decisions made on sensory input to rise to consciousness.

https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2008.751

Google "seven seconds to make a first impression" to see how much subconscious decision making is done when we encounter someone new. Our conscious mind doesn't become aware of the myriad rapid judgments until the subconscious passes the "feeling" up for further consideration. If the encounter is fleeting and unremarkable, you never get the chance to consider anything at all.

This rapid, continuous, subconscious evaluation doesn't always work in our favor. Our subconscious threat detection mechanisms can produce generalized anxiety if they indicate excessive false positives.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053810098903373

The reason we don't see more auto accidents is due to the mechanism Coffee outlined. If we had to wait for conscious critical analysis of threats before acting, there would be none of us around to act. Our sluggish precursors would have succumbed to predation long ago.

 

 

[Moondira]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

22 hours ago, Moondira said:

Those are examples of reflexes, not instincts.

"Instincts are inborn complex patterns of behavior that exist in most members of the species, and should be distinguished from reflexes, which are simple responses of an organism to a specific stimulus, such as the contraction of the pupil in response to bright light or the spasmodic movement of the lower leg when the knee is tapped".

Expand  Expand  

Blinking is an instinct,so is yawning and breathing.. Shivers might not be.

Wikipedia says yawning is a reflex, but then you can't always trust Wikipedia. I read elsewhere some of these are considered both a reflex and an instinct. Nothing is ever simple, eh? I had hoped that at least between the 3 concepts we were trying to define at the time (instinct vs intuition vs reflex) we could ace one in the whole at least, but no such luck!

[Moondira]

22 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I think you are right we are all born with those abilities but we don't all practice them especially the intuition aspect. Intuition to me is like the time when I had a job driving a mobile refreshment truck and one day as I was on my way to the sites I serviced, I was getting this niggling sense I should check my propane tank levels. I had filled them the day before so should have had enough to last the week but I decided to pay attention to the "feeling" and check it anyway. Sure enough they were almost empty as one of the fittings was not tight and the tanks were almost empty and would not have lasted for my shift. To me that was intuition as there was no logical reason for me to think about the tank levels as I should have had enough for several more days and it was not something that would have normally come to mind.

For that matter, some of the biggest challenges I have faced in life were as a result of not paying attention to some little niggling sense of something not right that wound up causing a lot of problems.

Interesting experience. Not to discount your evaluation, but my first thought is always like the one Silent had, and that is to check for any input from the senses that the unconscious received which was not registered by the conscious mind. I had not thought of the propane odor, but looks like that's out. What about the demeanor of the person who filled your propane tank? Could you perhaps have perceived him as shady or incompetent and so felt distrust of his work, causing you to check the propane tanks sooner than you typically would?

I totally believe we can receive information that is not limited to what our senses picked up, but that this is rare, or perhaps rare in most people.
There's a lot of work occurring in quantum physics, and many theorize a kind of field which surrounds us that contains all the information in the universe (A-field by Ervin László, zero point, Bohm's Implicate Order: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicate_and_explicate_order ).  Conceivably, on some occasions we can tap into this information. I wonder if that's what happened to you, or how do you define the experience?

Whether your impulse to check the tanks came from outside the senses or is a phenomenon of the unconscious mind registering sensory input we're unaware of, in either case it's amazing, eh?   It's good to trust intuition even though sometimes our fears can cloud up the message and distort it.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Moondira

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I understand what you mean but with 2 temperature controlled burners kicking on and off regularly, the smell of propane was always there when stopped. In this case it was something that came up out of the blue and for a change, I decided to check instead of just ignoring it. I think it is the paying attention to it that makes one increasingly sensitive and though wrong at times, become increasingly adept at recognizing times it is something that should be followed. 

Not going to argue for the sake of arguing. There are very few smells that humans don't become quickly inured to.

[Madelaine McMasters]

2 minutes ago, Moondira said:

Wikipedia says yawning is a reflex, but then you can't always trust Wikipedia. I read elsewhere some of these are considered both a reflex and an instinct. Nothing is ever simple, eh? I had hoped that at least between the 3 concepts we were trying to define at the time (instinct vs intuition vs reflex) we could ace one in the whole at least, but no such luck!

Yawning is a complex behavior, and is both reflexive and instinctual. It correlates with mental state and is affected by temperature (classifying it as reflex) and it can be induced socially (classifying it as social instinct).

https://www.zmescience.com/other/feature-post/yawning-science-contagious-01102019/

[Moondira]

Ok, I'm in heaven today with time to read topics related to telepathy:

Akashic field theory

László's 2004 book, Science and the Akashic Field: An Integral Theory of Everything posits a field of information as the substance of the cosmos. Using the Sanskrit and Vedic term for "space", Akasha, he calls this information field the "Akashic field" or "A-field". He posits that the "quantum vacuum" (see Vacuum state) is the fundamental energy and information-carrying field that informs not just the current universe, but all universes past and present (collectively, the "Metaverse").

László believes that such an informational field can explain why our universe appears to be fine-tuned so as to form galaxies and conscious lifeforms; and why evolution is an informed, not random, process. He believes that the hypothesis solves several problems that emerge from quantum physics, especially nonlocality and quantum entanglement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervin_László

"Ervin Laszlo is a philosopher and systems scientist. Twice nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, he has published more than 75 books and over 400 articles and research papers. The subject of the one-hour PBS special Life of a Modern-Day Genius, Laszlo is the founder and president of the international think tank the Club of Budapest and of the prestigious Laszlo Institute of New Paradigm Research. The winner of the 2017 Luxembourg Peace Prize, he lives in Tuscany".

Lots of presentations on YouTube too.

[Madelaine McMasters]

18 minutes ago, Moondira said:

Interesting experience. Not to discount your evaluation, but my first thought is always like the one Silent had, and that is to check for any input from the senses that the unconscious received which was not registered by the conscious mind. I had not thought of the propane odor, but looks like that's out. What about the demeanor of the person who filled your propane tank? Could you perhaps have perceived him as shady or incompetent and so felt distrust of his work, causing you to check the propane tanks sooner than you typically would?

I totally believe we can receive information that is not limited to what our senses picked up, but that this is rare, or perhaps rare in most people.
There's a lot of work occurring in quantum physics, and many theorize a kind of field which surrounds us that contains all the information in the universe (A-field by Ervin László, zero point, Bohm's Implicate Order: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicate_and_explicate_order). Conceivably, on some occasions we can tap into this information. I wonder if that's what happened to you, or how do you define the experience?

Whether your impulse to check the tanks came from outside the senses or is a phenomenon of the unconscious mind registering sensory input we're unaware of, in either case it's amazing, eh?   It's good to trust intuition even though sometimes our fears can cloud up the message and distort it.

What about all the times in our lives that we have premonitions that are wrong? We don't remember them because they're so frequent as to be unremarkable. If we do remember them, we don't tell stories about them because they're unremarkable.

I will now tell the story of my lifelong effort to remember the times I thought something would happen, and it didn't. Well, I would, but I've lost count. Therefore my personal experience is enough (for me) to counter every correct premonition I've experienced myself (a few) and every correct premonition story I've ever heard (quite a few).

Edited July 17, 2021 by Madelaine McMasters
Clarification

[Moondira]

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

15 minutes ago, Moondira said:

our fears can cloud up the message and distort it.

What about all the times in our lives that we have premonitions that are wrong? We don't remember them because they're unremarkable. If we do remember them, we don't tell stories about them because they're unremarkable.

I will now tell the story of my lifelong effort to remember the times I thought something would happen, and it didn't. Well, I would, but I've lost count. Therefore my personal experience is enough (for me) to counter every premonition I've experienced myself (a few) and every premonition story I've ever heard (quite a few).

That's why I included the bit about how our fears can sometimes distort. There are other reasons too, as you've pointed out. It can be very difficult to suss out true intuition from the noise. But just because our mind can commit errors does not prove intuition is always false.

There are ways to train the mind to be more accurate regarding intuition. Some of these methods do address the issue you've mentioned.

[Moondira]

18 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Not going to argue for the sake of arguing. There are very few smells that humans don't become quickly inured to.

Arielle simply said she always smelled propane when the vehicle stopped and so the smell of propane would not be something which caused her to check the tanks. We need to look elsewhere for clues, in other words.

[Madelaine McMasters]

Just now, Moondira said:

That's why I included the bit about how our fears can sometimes distort. There are other reasons too, as you've pointed out. It can be very difficult to suss out true intuition from the noise. But just because our mind can commit errors does not prove intuition is always false.

There are ways to train the mind to be more accurate regarding intuition. Some of these methods do address the issue you've mentioned.

https://fs.blog/2012/03/daniel-kahneman-on-intuition/

I recommend Daniel Kahneman's book "Thinking Fast and Slow". We have a name for trained intuition, it's "expertise".

[Moondira]

13 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Therefore my personal experience is enough (for me) to counter every correct premonition I've experienced myself (a few) and every correct premonition story I've ever heard (quite a few).

We should never base major evaluations of any matter only on our personal experience. It is but one input.

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 minute ago, Moondira said:

Arielle simply said she always smelled propane when the vehicle stopped and so the smell of propane would not be something which caused her to check the tanks. We need to look elsewhere for clues, in other words.

What about a difference in the intensity of the smell, or the extent of space affected by it?

[Moondira]

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

https://fs.blog/2012/03/daniel-kahneman-on-intuition/

I recommend Daniel Kahneman's book "Thinking Fast and Slow". We have a name for trained intuition, it's "expertise".

I've read it.

Not to be too snarky, but it is not the Bible is it?