Phil Deakins Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said: My alts, who were used as models in my shop, had to be registered as bots or I would have been violating TOS by gaming traffic. This is just one example of a bot not being run by a program as mine simply used a pose stand and pose animations. The point is I wasn't monitoring them. They performed a series of movements prompted by the pose stand. Is that a program? Yes, but is it what you'd call a program? I'm not sure. Do Kali's alts function while unattended? Yes, they do. They collect gold without her doing anything for a given period of time. The HUD times out automatically after a 30 minute period. She can prevent the timeout by interacting with the HUD. And then again for a 30 minute period her alts perform a task, collecting gold, without her monitoring or doing anything with the alts. They collect gold every 3 minutes on their own. Perhaps your definition of program is too narrow. No, my definition isn't too narrow. We all know what a bot is. Your store models had to be registered, not because thedy were bots, but because the rule about not artificially affecting the traffic scores came in. You weren't allowed to affect the traffic with them, which is why you had to register them. But that didn't make them bots. I'm assuming that they were logged in by you in some kind of viewer - thin or full - and not logged in by a programme. No, I would not say that animations on an avatar makes the avatar a bot. If you logged them in individually, and nothing about them was automated by an external programme (not a viewer of any kind), then they weren't bots. They looked like bots (to Lindens, because only they can see the 'scripted agent' status), but they didn't quack like bots, so they weren't bots. Kali's aren't bots either. The way you are looking at it, anyone who is being animated (dance, sex, whatever) is a bot if the human isn't actually at the keyboard. But if the human is at the keyboard monitoring the avatars, then the avatars are not bots, even if the human is only watching, ready to take some action should the need arise. To be a bot, an avatar must be logged in by an external programme, and not by a human. And, once in, its actions must be determined by an external programme. That's a bot. The prgrammes can be a combination of LSL scripts and external programmes, but it's the external programme that tells the bot what to do. E.g. my bot systems used LSL scripts, but what those scripts did was tell the external programme what's happening, and the external programme would make the bots do things. In conclusion, not all avatars that are registered as scripted agents are actually scripted agents (bots), because they aren't fully controlled by scripts. The registration just means that an avatar is registered as such, but that doesn't make it an actual. Both yours and Kali's fall into that category. I think that we are differing because I am talking about bots quite literally, whereas I think you are thinking that a registered avatar is a bot because it's registered, even though it isn't opeated by an external programme. ETA: My store models were bots because an external programme logged them in so, when the new rule came in, I naturally registered them. Although there was a period when they were loggd in by me on viewers, and I monitored them - 4 to a screen. They weren't registered at that time, even though they were store models. It was before the rule about traffic came in. If the rule had been in place, I would have registered them because they were artifically inflating the traffic figures, but that wouldn't have made bots. Edited March 15, 2019 by Phil Deakins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said: I think that we are differing because I am talking about bots quite literally, whereas I think you are thinking that a registered avatar is a bot because it's registered, even though it isn't opeated by an external programme. I have yet to see in the definition provided by Linden Lab say external. You are adding to their definition. And with that I'm out. I've learned the hard way there's no point to continue the discussion with you because you see everything as black and white where I see all the shades of gray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said: I have yet to see in the definition provided by Linden Lab say external. You are adding to their definition. And with that I'm out. I've learned the hard way there's no point to continue the discussion with you because you see everything as black and white where I see all the shades of gray. No I'm not adding to anything. A bot is operated by a programme - in the whole wide world - and it's no different here in SL. LL doesn't call them bots, anyway. We all know what bots are, and they are not avatars that are logged in in viewers and operated by humans. It's you who is adding something by including avatars that are clearly not robots. I'm saying 'external' because I don't know of any way to create a bot system using just LSL. To the best of my knowledge, a robot in SL must be operated by an external programme, perhaps in conjunction with LSL, as mine were, but not necessarily. I'm looking at this as black or white, because a robot is a robot. There are no shades of grey about it. You're adding a shade of grey by saying that some human-operated avatars are robots. I reject that, of course, because it's simply not true. Edited March 15, 2019 by Phil Deakins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said: The HUD times out automatically after a 30 minute period. She can prevent the timeout by interacting with the HUD. Time out as in getting logged out for being idle too long? That isn't bot behavior. Your viewer will log you out for being afk too long if you don't change that setting. Does that make all accounts bots? No. LL's definition of bot is "avatars controlled by computer programs rather than people." If you're having to interact with a HUD to keep it from timing out, it is not being fully controlled by a program. Granted, it's a very thin line between what must be registered as a bot and what doesn't need to be. But it is pretty cut and dried as to what isn't allowed. When in doubt, ask LL. And always get confirmation in writing. ***** Someone was claiming that bots don't/can't violate LL policy for using too many resources on a sim/region: Quote For example, the following activities are violations of this policy: Bots causing unreasonable load on search or the regions in which they operate. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Inworld_policy_on_bots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionalein Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 46 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: You're adding a shade of grey by saying that some human-operated avatars are robots. I reject that, of course, because it's simply not true. Maybe there are "part time" bots - you know mostly bots but occsasionally theor owner takes the account for a joyride... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionalein Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: Someone was claiming that bots don't/can't violate LL policy for using too many resources on a sim/region: For example, the following activities are violations of this policy: Bots causing unreasonable load on search or the regions in which they operate. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Inworld_policy_on_bots OMG They said "bots"... The end is nigh folks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Just now, Fionalein said: OMG They said "bots"... The end is nigh folks... They have been since Quote This page was last modified on 30 January 2014, at 09:11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionalein Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: They have been since The Ministry of Truth is not amused by this thoughtcrime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, Fionalein said: 59 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: You're adding a shade of grey by saying that some human-operated avatars are robots. I reject that, of course, because it's simply not true. Maybe there are "part time" bots - you know mostly bots but occsasionally theor owner takes the account for a joyride... If I self-identify as a Bot, can others tell me that I’m not a Bot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said: If I self-identify as a Bot, can others tell me that I’m not a Bot? Yes. You'd ony be a robot if the avatar is controlled by a software program, rather than by a human. See http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Second_Life_Glossary Edited March 15, 2019 by Phil Deakins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Just now, Phil Deakins said: 1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said: If I self-identify as a Bot, can others tell me that I’m not a Bot? Yes. If a Bot tells people that it’s not a Bot, can others tell it that it is a Bot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Just now, Love Zhaoying said: If a Bot tells people that it’s not a Bot, can others tell it that it is a Bot? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 21 minutes ago, Fionalein said: The Ministry of Truth is not amused by this thoughtcrime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Fionalein said: Maybe there are "part time" bots - you know mostly bots but occsasionally theor owner takes the account for a joyride... As per a convo I saw (can't remember when) those accounts are still considered bots and must be registered. From what I recall, you aren't supposed to use them as regular accounts once they are registered as bots. Not sure who to ask this of but perhaps @Patch Linden can get confirmation for us. Edited March 15, 2019 by Selene Gregoire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kali Wylder Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Blush Bravin said: Oh I wasn't suggesting using an automated way to keep from timing out. But now, I'm thinking that since I've played, which was years ago, perhaps this has been changed. There was something in the game HUD that let you keep "playing". Really the only thing that you could do in this state was collect gold. Perhaps it was an exploit and I just didn't know it was. Thankfully I didn't play long and never got accused of cheating, which I'd never do knowingly. But to keep this on topic. I would still think that letting your "scripted agents" sit for 30 minutes at a time, with the only interaction being to tap the hud to keep from timing out, and then repeating that behavior all day long is in reality the behavior of a bot. I would agree with you if I were a robot or a program that did this, but I'm not. I'm a human being. The definition of a bot or scripted agent is a non-human performing such actions. Bots can perform actions instead of a human. Humans can perform actions too, this does not mean humans are bots. Basic logic. Using a dance hud is quite similar to using the Tiny Empires hud. Sometimes the hud will change the dance randomly because the random button was selected. Sometimes the user will select each dance to match the song they hear. When the hud is choosing the dances that is like the TE hud adding gold or subtracting taxes. Just because the user lets the hud decide does not turn the user into a bot. Edited March 15, 2019 by kali Wylder ETA examples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionalein Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 30 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: As per a convo I saw (can't remember when) those accounts are still considered bots and must be registered. From what I recall, you aren't supposed to use them as regular accounts once they are registered as bots. Not sure who to ask this of but perhaps @Patch Linden can get confirmation for us. Obviously it must be OK, or they would not have enforced the registration of the alt army as bots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, kali Wylder said: I would agree with you if I were a robot or a program that did this, but I'm not. I'm a human being. The definition of a bot or scripted agent is a non-human performing such actions. Bots can perform actions instead of a human. Humans can perform actions too, this does not mean humans are bots. Basic logic. What if we only THINK we’re not Bots? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kali Wylder Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: What if we only THINK we’re not Bots? Well now, then we are discussing the nature of reality. Is reality subjective or objective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, kali Wylder said: Well now, then we are discussing the nature of reality. Is reality subjective or objective? As a Bot, I would try to answer directly. As I think that I am human, I would quote “Zen and the Art if Motorcycle Maintenance”. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 20 minutes ago, kali Wylder said: I would agree with you if I were a robot or a program that did this, but I'm not. I'm a human being. The definition of a bot or scripted agent is a non-human performing such actions. Bots can perform actions instead of a human. Humans can perform actions too, this does not mean humans are bots. Basic logic. Using a dance hud is quite similar to using the Tiny Empires hud. Sometimes the hud will change the dance randomly because the random button was selected. Sometimes the user will select each dance to match the song they hear. When the hud is choosing the dances that is like the TE hud adding gold or subtracting taxes. Just because the user lets the hud decide does not turn the user into a bot. Thing is a Linden told you to register them as scripted agents. So that seems to make them bots. I tend to think that Lindens know what they are doing unlike some others who post here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blush Bravin Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said: Time out as in getting logged out for being idle too long? That isn't bot behavior. Your viewer will log you out for being afk too long if you don't change that setting. Does that make all accounts bots? No. No, not that kind of timeout. The game HUD times out and you can no longer collect gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 As far as how one defines "bot" ... it is irrelevant. The only stance on the matter that actually matters is that of the Lab and/or the individual Linden responding to the report or to you upon an appeal attempt. Story, end of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance An excellent read. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said: Thing is a Linden told you to register them as scripted agents. So that seems to make them bots. I tend to think that Lindens know what they are doing unlike some others who post here. No it does not make them bots. The reason? Because they not bots. They are controlled by a human. That particular Linden got it wrong. Some of them do sometimes, y'know. They are not infallible Edited March 15, 2019 by Phil Deakins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said: No, not that kind of timeout. The game HUD times out and you can no longer collect gold. Kind/type makes no difference here. If you, the human being, doesn't do something to/with the HUD it will time out. If you were running a program that prevented the timeout and didn't require human interaction (other than launching/exiting the program/bot, of course), then I would agree. Simply put, a bot is a computer program that does not require human interaction* to function. *All bots require minimum human interaction in just launching/exiting the bot program. That isn't the type of interaction I am referring to. I'm referring to interaction during the course of the program running in order to keep the program running. All computer programs require some monitoring. They just don't always need someone doing anything to keep it running. I know I'm not doing a very good job of explaining this. Sorry. TBI can be a beeyotch at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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