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CoffeeDujour

Please let us see bots.

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On 3/7/2019 at 2:29 PM, Selene Gregoire said:

As long as the bots aren't hogging shared (sim) resources and causing issues for others that own/rent in the same sim, I'm afraid Phil is correct. If Phil owns the whole sim his bots are parked in, there's nothing you can really do about it other than report it to LL and they likely won't do anything. If Phil doesn't own the whole sim, and his bots are using up more than his "fair share" of sim resources, then Phil is in the wrong and LL will do something about it, if you report it.

In this context, by “sim” do you mean 65535 sqm Mainland region?

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3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

@kali Wylder

There is one thing left unsaid in this thread, and it's just a matter of curiosity. How many avatars did/do you have in your 'army'?

Don't be afraid to say. I always freely say that I used to have an 'army' of just under 40 avatars (bots) logged in simulataneously. And it's not uncommon for me to have 6 to 8 avatars logged in simultaneously.

24

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

Oh for ....

Such an oh so lovely derail over what ought to be a simple enough concept to grasp: s/he is read or spoken as "she" or "he" - it is contextual and like it or not just as correct as using "they" and derivatives.

Now would the two of you knock it off? It is bad enough that one of you is notorious for not backing down and trying to use semantics to "win" an argument or "debate" that either is not even present or that you bloody well started in the first place while the other purposely acts obtuse (depending on the topic) in an attempt to garner responses. Enough, grow up.

I beg to disagree. We do not know the gender of the Linden that was referred to, so in this case we must refer to then as she or he, specifically "she or he didn't have the slightest clue what the rules were".

It seems to me just saying "they" is so much simpler so much more straighforward AND it conforms to one of the definitions of "they".

I don't understand why people wish to substitute difficulty for simplicity when the simpler version is in fact correct. 

But if it makes you feel better go right ahead and say she or he.

Edited by BilliJo Aldrin
spelling
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That's nice. You understand just fine, you're arguing just to argue.

This isn't even the first time you've done this.

Enough. Seriously, enough.

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On 3/7/2019 at 1:44 PM, Phil Deakins said:

You see, that's what I meant. Bots are wrongly seen as negative. The very idea of reporting bots just because they are bots, and may be using more than the land-owner's fair share of sim resources, is sheer stupidity or sheer selfishness. Selfishness because bots are not what the reporter wants in SL, but it's nothing whatsoever to do with he reporter. There really are some stupid users in SL.

 

I stayed away from this thread for the most part and just read through several pages to get to the end. It's a shame that someone had to derail the thread for a grammar lesson based on personal preference. 

But to get to the real purpose of this thread. I really don't care if an avatar is a bot or actively being used by a person unless it's a case as Kali described. Considering that a mainland regions has only 40 avatar slots available at any given time, unless you own half of said region having 24 avatars logged in constantly is unfair use of resources. Kali did the right thing in the situation though, which I commend her for doing. Seeing that her army was causing issues for her neighbors she moved them. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

But to get to the real purpose of this thread. I really don't care if an avatar is a bot or actively being used by a person unless it's a case as Kali described. Considering that a mainland regions has only 40 avatar slots available at any given time, unless you own half of said region having 24 avatars logged in constantly is unfair use of resources. Kali did the right thing in the situation though, which I commend her for doing. Seeing that her army was causing issues for her neighbors she moved them. 

That's a common way of thinking, but I disagree with it. It isn't very often that the idea of "unfair use of resources" is correctly brought up, and this isn't one of those times. I stated a reason earlier - a mainland sim can only hold 40 avatars, so anyone who owns less than 1/40th of a sim would be using more than his/her fair share of resources by standing on the land. That's anyone who only owns a 1024 or a 512 for instance.

It's all a matter of who wants to use sim's resources. In the current example, nobody in the sim was going short of resources. Apparently one peson thought she was (not avatar slots) and she reported it, but the Linden who responded didn't agree with her, because he allowed all of the OP's 'army' to remain.

Fair use of resources is a matter of common sense, and not down to a 'fair' division of resources by numbers. If a lot of avatars are in the sim, then a land owner would be using avatar slots unfairly if s/he had 20 people over when s/he only owned a small parcel. But if the sim is otherwise empty, or just has 2 or 3 avatars in it, and the same landowner brings 30 friends to visit, then it's not a unfair use of resources (avatar slots). 'Unfair' implies denying others their fair share. In this case, it implies denying others their fair share of avatar slots by using more than your fair share. That didn't happen.

Second Life has never been an environment where each of us only uses the number of avatar slots according to the size of our land. It could never work like that because a user would need to own at least 1/40th of a 64k mainland sim before s/he could even go to his/her own land. So fair use of resources has always been a matter of common sense, and never a matter of numbers. It's not uncommon for the "unfair use of resources" idea to be trotted out where it doesn't belong.

First you said that it was a shame that someone (BilliJo) derailed the thread with a post about grammar, and you were right. Then you said, "But to get to the real purpose of this thread", and went on to talk about something that has nothing to do with the real purpose of this thread. ;)

This thread is about wanting users to be able to see which avatars are bots. It isn't about resources and fair shares of resources. So your contribution keeps the thread derailed lol.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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Oblivious to the silencing effect a parcel stacked full of bots has.

No one else will want to hang out on that sim, no one will move in or make a home, no one will set up shop or start a club and everyone who has land is left holding onto it with a choice to either take a massive loss or wait the bot farmer out.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I don't understand why people wish to substitute difficulty for simplicity when the simpler version is in fact correct. 

I told you why I prefer the less simple way. In case you forgot, it's because I don't care for the plural of he/she/it being used as a singular. I didn't say it was wrong to do it. I said I don't care for it.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Oblivious to the silencing effect a parcel stacked full of bots has.

No one else will want to hang out on that sim, no one will move in or make a home, no one will set up shop or start a club and everyone who has land is left holding onto it with a choice to either take a massive loss or wait the bot farmer out.

Since you started the thread, and you are taking part in a derail, I take it that you're happy enough for them at this point.

You make fair points, but not about 'resources'. Your points would also apply if a person owned 3/4 of a mainland sim and continually had 30 avatars in it. You could equally say, "No one else will want to hang out on that sim, no one will move in or make a home, no one will set up shop or start a club and everyone who has land is left holding onto it with a choice to either take a massive loss or wait the bot farmer out." and you'd be right. But it wouldn't be an unfair use of resources, which is what I think you're commenting on.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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Posted (edited)

I do apologise. I hadn't realised that when someone changes the subject to throw in a criticism about me, then it's not derailing, but when I defend the criticism, then it's me who is derailing and not the one who changed the subject to throw in the criticism. I'm so sorry. I didn't realise that. I understand now. Thank you for pointing it out to me. I appreciate it.

(Original text replaced)

Edited by Phil Deakins

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45 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

This thread is about wanting users to be able to see which avatars are bots. It isn't about resources and fair shares of resources. So your contribution keeps the thread derailed lol.

You're full of it Phil. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

You're full of it Phil. 

Can't stand being corected, eh? I understand :D

ETA: Or didn't you read the op, and you genuinely didn't know what the thread was about?

Edited by Phil Deakins
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Posted (edited)
On 2/26/2019 at 2:53 PM, CoffeeDujour said:

Wandering around looking for signs of life, dots on the map .... bots on the map more like. I've been at this for an hour going region to region and I've yet to find a real person.

Bots .. lets have them shown on the map in a different color, keep the green dot for real people, this is a social platform, let us at least see where the real people are.

 

2 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I really don't care if an avatar is a bot or actively being used by a person unless it's a case as Kali described.

 

50 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

ETA: Or didn't you read the op, and you genuinely didn't know what the thread was about?

So to help you with your reading comprehension. The OP was addressing identifying bots for whatever reason. So I gave my opinion. And yes, my opinion is in line with the question presented by the OP. Maybe you have trouble with inference and only see black and white. I don't know but sometimes that's the way it appears. The hogging of resources is a very real issue in regards to bot usage, like it or not. Just because you were a resource hog with your bots and want to whitewash it doesn't make it right.

I'm also not going to be enticed to get into a verbal debate with you. So you can go ahead and get the last word. That still won't make you right.

Edited by Blush Bravin
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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

So to help you with your reading comprehension. The OP was addressing identifying bots for whatever reason.

I know what the OP started the thread about - identifying bots - not bots in general. It's you who didn't know, so you talked about resources, and the unfair use of them. That's nothing to do with identifying bots. And you're still talking about resources! Sheesh!

Edited by Phil Deakins

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4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

In this context, by “sim” do you mean 65535 sqm Mainland region?

Doesn't matter if it is mainland or not.

Quote

Region

A named 256 m x 256 m (65,536 m²) area hosted by a single simulator process (sim). In common usage, the term "simulator" or "sim" may also refer to a region, but in fact a single server process can host multiple regions. They can be flagged as General, Moderate, or Adult.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Land

Residents have been calling regions sims for 14 years that I know of. Gets so old being challenged about it every time I use the word sim.

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1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Doesn't matter if it is mainland or not.

Quote

Region

A named 256 m x 256 m (65,536 m²) area hosted by a single simulator process (sim). In common usage, the term "simulator" or "sim" may also refer to a region, but in fact a single server process can host multiple regions. They can be flagged as General, Moderate, or Adult.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Land

Residents have been calling regions sims for 14 years that I know of. Gets so old being challenged about it every time I use the word sim.

My point is, if it were a private island region (not mainland), how could a resident with their own private island region blame someone else with their own private island region for causing lag with bots?

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2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

's all a matter of who wants to use sim's resources. In the current example, nobody in the sim was going short of resources. Apparently one peson thought she was (not avatar slots) and she reported it, but the Linden who responded didn't agree with her, because he allowed all of the OP's 'army' to remain.

I wasn't the OP, not that it matters much.  I tried to stay out of this thread for a long time because I didn't want to be judged.  I suppose some will judge me anyway and I thought I did have some experience to share so I got over the hesitation

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3 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

I wasn't the OP, not that it matters much.  I tried to stay out of this thread for a long time because I didn't want to be judged.  I suppose some will judge me anyway and I thought I did have some experience to share so I got over the hesitation

I'm glad you shared your experience. It really does address the OPs question about bots despite what one person in this thread might think. I also believe your response to your neighbors' concerns is a great example of how someone should respond when they realize they are taking more avatar slots than might be their fair share.

As far as LL doing something about ARs claiming unfair use of region resources, I honestly have always thought that pertained to script usage only. I know I have had Linden intervention in the past when script usage was reported. I don't think a Linden will ever intervene when it comes to how many avatars a person has online in one spot unless those avatars are not registered as bots when they should be. So in your particular case, the Linden involved seemed to be following the rules to the letter.

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@kali Wylder

Don't worry about the discussion in the thread. Your entry into it was fine. It's just that a few people in the forum like to show themselves up by dumping on me personally. It's what they do when they think they see an opportunity. I say "show themselves up" because they get it wrong for everyone else to see, as they did in this thread.

 

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11 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

All bots have to be run by a program, correct?

So the Lindens can have users register who use those programs -- or block them. Instead of making the account be registered, make the program be registered. Like the way you have to register to make Experiences.

 

I don't think all bots have to be run by a program.  My alts that are registered as bots are not. 

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Back in the day before demos were the norm, I used to run two alts nearly 24/7 in my shop as models. They were registered bots but never used any kind of scripting.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Residents have been calling regions sims for 14 years that I know of. Gets so old being challenged about it every time I use the word sim.

I struggle with the transition to using region instead of sim. But I am doing my best to make the change. I think having Patch respond to one of my posts as, "What's a sim?" did the trick for me. 

Edited by Blush Bravin
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Posted (edited)

@Prokofy Neva Everything that connects to SL is by definition a program, some show the 3d, some don't, some have user interfaces, some don't. From LL's perspective there is no real way to tell if a certain client is actually being honest about which of the many programs that connect to SL it is. Right now most everything is playing straight, but you can bet that will change if LL start to differentiate the service based on what claims to be connecting.

On a side note .. Once you go down the rabbit hole of trying to identify use based on connection statistics, say many accounts from a single IP, it very quickly becomes a huge quagmire of false positives and edge cases. Dealing with that mess is always a loosing battle, you're always one step behind, you're wrong more than you're right and it rapidly becomes a labor intensive time sink. Hence why IP based banning has never really been a thing.

Edited by CoffeeDujour
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46 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I struggle with the transition to using region instead of sim. But I am doing my best to make the change. I think having Patch respond to one of my posts as, "What's a sim?" did the trick for me. 

I was thinking of that when I posted earlier.

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