Problem with Gamers/Game Developer

[Adamburp Adamczyk]

@Kristin Lindenhow about the Governance POV please Kristin? I daresay you've probably had a lot of complaints about this type of behaviour?

[Ethan Paslong]

11 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

being drawn into the clutches of a database you want nothing to do with and havent chosen to add yourself to.

people don't realize, in sl or rl, they are on hundreds, if not thousends, of databases.. every purchase is logged at buyers, sellers, and LL side, with some luck also caspervent..or other delivery system. Every money transaction.L$ or rl money, even your bank, paypal, CC knows you'r active on SL, even if you only used it to have payment info on file,  every tp can be logged by LL or landowner, your posts on fb, your posts on these forums, every group post, group join, group leave, online status... ... and so on for a lót more...
In practive life... we have no choice... it just happens.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

34 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

people don't realize, in sl or rl, they are on hundreds, if not thousends, of databases.. every purchase is logged at buyers, sellers, and LL side, with some luck also caspervent..or other delivery system. Every money transaction.L$ or rl money, even your bank, paypal, CC knows you'r active on SL, even if you only used it to have payment info on file,  every tp can be logged by LL or landowner, your posts on fb, your posts on these forums, every group post, group join, group leave, online status... ... and so on for a lót more...
In practive life... we have no choice... it just happens.

If one doesn't want to be tracked on the internet one should just not get online, oh and while they are at it,  they should get rid of their cell phone too, every move move they make can be tracked.

Of course, when one has to go to a doctor, every facet of your health info is stored, "securely" of course, but all data is available if the price is right.

Credit cards, same thing.

You could opt to go cash only, but then you run the risk of being pulled over and having your big wad of cash confiscated as "possibly earned from selling drugs".

But, that's a whole other (RL) topic for discussion

[Love Zhaoying]

47 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

people don't realize, in sl or rl, they are on hundreds, if not thousends, of databases.. every purchase is logged at buyers, sellers, and LL side, with some luck also caspervent..or other delivery system. Every money transaction.L$ or rl money, even your bank, paypal, CC knows you'r active on SL, even if you only used it to have payment info on file,  every tp can be logged by LL or landowner, your posts on fb, your posts on these forums, every group post, group join, group leave, online status... ... and so on for a lót more...
In practive life... we have no choice... it just happens.

But..but..GDPR.

[AyelaNewLife]

5 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

If one doesn't want to be tracked on the internet one should just not get online, oh and while they are at it,  they should get rid of their cell phone too, every move move they make can be tracked.

Of course, when one has to go to a doctor, every facet of your health info is stored, "securely" of course, but all data is available if the price is right.

Credit cards, same thing.

You could opt to go cash only, but then you run the risk of being pulled over and having your big wad of cash confiscated as "possibly earned from selling drugs".

But, that's a whole other (RL) topic for discussion

While you're right of course, you can cut out the bulk of information harvesting simply by not posting your live on a social media and installing a privacy plugin on your browser. Far from perfect, but it's low effort.

Trying to keep yourself off every "database" out there? lol

[Lindal Kidd]

 

This is degenerating.  I see two problems here:

1.  The OP's issue with overly aggressive game players.  2.  The OP has a laggy region to start with (nice investigative work, Qie!)

The OP can't do much about the first problem, except to keep banning folks who come to their sim and don't play nice.  Or maybe, kick out the "friends" who at least indirectly, have caused her region to be a hotbed of gameplay activity.  The second issue is entirely under their control.

As for the more general issue of a game that forces non-players to become aware of game play around them, and even to become an unwilling part of the game (i.e., a victim or a target) and registers them in the game's database...  Bloodlines had the same problem, and it really turned into a public relations nightmare for them.  It resulted in the "garlic necklace" solution, that lets people opt out.  It's not a perfect solution.  Someone who uses a garlic necklace is STILL in the Bloodlines database.  But it at least got rid of the endless bite requests.

Angels and Demons should take heed of history and come up with some means to rein in your unruly players...or sooner or later, your game will BE history.

[belindacarson]

But the OP can tackle the lag on their sim, she can't tackle all the spampire griefers

[Sadira Desideri]

18 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The whole point is if you are not in the game you have no awareness if angels are purifying you or if demons are corrupting you. My good demon friend started playing, scanned me and said, "oh an angel has blessed you, well I'll take care of that", and he corrupted me. 

Like so what? Corrupt away.

 

You're correct.  I'm not actually aware of what's going on WITHIN the game. What is affecting me is those angels coming onto my land to aggressively go after my tenants in this game. The game itself doesn't affect me. The fact that the devs won't grant my sim safe zone status because I don't play their ridiculous game, and I get caught spending time chasing players off and being harassed for it, that is what affects me.

 

16 hours ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

It is because if that is the common behavior of your game's players, it will ruin your games reputation towards potential new players. Its bad business to have hooligans as your representatives. Its also feeling and acting responsible. If you, by just making a statement towards your player base, can at least try to improve their behavior, then why should you not?

 

[Sadira Desideri]

By simply allowing non-players to have their land designated as safe zones, the devs will eliminate the issue with the troublesome players. They will have to go after people where it is allowed, and not be able to bother residents at designated safe zones who want nothing to do with it. Its the coercive behavior of the devs, that you "must be a member of the system" to get safe zone status, that is the big issue.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Sadira Desideri said:

You're correct.  I'm not actually aware of what's going on WITHIN the game. What is affecting me is those angels coming onto my land to aggressively go after my tenants in this game. The game itself doesn't affect me. The fact that the devs won't grant my sim safe zone status because I don't play their ridiculous game, and I get caught spending time chasing players off and being harassed for it, that is what affects me.

 

 

So are your tenants playing the game? I'm confused here.

I'd guess yes, or else your tenants wouldn't know they were being aggressively targeted. 

It's really not your job to chase off EC players that are targeting your EC playing tenants.

[Sadira Desideri]

4 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

 

This is degenerating.  I see two problems here:

1.  The OP's issue with overly aggressive game players.  2.  The OP has a laggy region to start with (nice investigative work, Qie!)

The OP can't do much about the first problem, except to keep banning folks who come to their sim and don't play nice.  Or maybe, kick out the "friends" who at least indirectly, have caused her region to be a hotbed of gameplay activity.  The second issue is entirely under their control.

As for the more general issue of a game that forces non-players to become aware of game play around them, and even to become an unwilling part of the game (i.e., a victim or a target) and registers them in the game's database...  Bloodlines had the same problem, and it really turned into a public relations nightmare for them.  It resulted in the "garlic necklace" solution, that lets people opt out.  It's not a perfect solution.  Someone who uses a garlic necklace is STILL in the Bloodlines database.  But it at least got rid of the endless bite requests.

Angels and Demons should take heed of history and come up with some means to rein in your unruly players...or sooner or later, your game will BE history.

The land is nto really laggy. There's a couple of laggy scripts but its not affecting much. The game and players aren't really affecting that either. What IS being affected is that Some of us nare being forced to adjust our lives and habits in SL to deal with these overly aggressive players because we can't get safe zoned status without being a member of the game.  The garlic necklace was good for bloodlines but there's no "opt out" for dealing with aggressive A&D players who don't care about the privacy of others. The devs need to adjust their attitudes that non-players aren't affected. By the game? They are correct. We are not affected directly by the game. We don't even know its going on.  But having to put out money for security systems that we didn't need before, having to adjust our land parameters and constantly chase people who occasionally get verbally abusive...is indirectly game related and can easily be resolved with the "opt out" of allowing non-players to request safe zone status, which is the only thing I've wanted since this started. Its extremely frustrating that they are so arrogant they won't even consider it.

[Sadira Desideri]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

So are your tenants playing the game? I'm confused here.

I'd guess yes, or else your tenants wouldn't know they were being aggressively targeted. 

It's really not your job to chase off EC players that are targeting your EC playing tenants.

Yes my tenants do play. And they have their parcel restricted. They play considerately and don't do this to others. That is true of the majority of A&D players, and I know many. Its a small contingent of overly aggressive players that are causing the problems. The tenants are good friends and have been for years. They are deeply mortified that this is occurring and have actually offered to move, but I'm not going to punish them because 5% of the players are jerks.

[Sadira Desideri]

17 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

sorry billie jo have to disagree with you here. This is the same as a friend uploading a photo of you and tagging you on facebook. You didnt want facebook to know anything about you but now it does. Same here you didnt want this gamesystem to know about you but now it does. Just like facebook we hear the same arguments it doesnt affect you....till it does just like facebook does now even if you never had an account there

 

 

16 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I'm quite sure the developers put some long winded high sounding passage in their hud notecard that players should always respect the rights of property owners when playing the game.

We see how well that worked.

I'll have to ask some friends who play if there's anything about respecting the rights of others. Considering their attitude toward non players though, I must say I sincerely doubt they have such a clause in there. I'll be shocked if they do.

[Sadira Desideri]

Just now, Sadira Desideri said:

 

I'll have to ask some friends who play if there's anything about respecting the rights of others. Considering their attitude toward non players though, I must say I sincerely doubt they have such a clause in there. I'll be shocked if they do.

And the reason I'll be shocked, is because the devs themselves obviously have no respect for the rights of non-players. Why would they expect their players to? Actions speak so much louder than words, and if they lead by example, their example is highly flawed. Why would anyone follow a "respect" rule when their own leadership has no respect for others?

[Fionalein]

8 minutes ago, Sadira Desideri said:

Yes my tenants do play. And they have their parcel restricted. They play considerately and don't do this to others. That is true of the majority of A&D players, and I know many. Its a small contingent of overly aggressive players that are causing the problems. The tenants are good friends and have been for years. They are deeply mortified that this is occurring and have actually offered to move, but I'm not going to punish them because 5% of the players are jerks.

If you tolerate them playing it, you have to deal with the consequences... the nature of that game made it predictable this would happen - the stupid game encourages that behaviour, they knew what they signed up for - so why are they now "mortified"?

Edited February 25, 2019 by Fionalein

[Sadira Desideri]

1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

If you tolerate them playing it, you have to deal with the consequences... the nature of that game made it predictable this would happen - the stupid game encourages that behaviour, they knew what they signed up for - so why are they now "mortified"?

They have never gone on to someone's private parcels to attack people, and the people they associate with in the game don't, either. Like I said, its a small contingent that do this, and I don't believe in punishing an entire group or community for the bad behavior of a small percentage of that group. Most actually do respect the privacy of others. They never expected non-players to be verbally abused for asking that their private property be respected.  Yes they knew what "could" happen in the game, but had never anticipated the deplorable behavior of the truly aggressive players.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Your problem is not with the game creators but with the players, In my region i've setup some scripts so any of the "locals" can kick anyone they want for 30 minutes from the entire region. While that seem convenient, a game creator is not responsible for the rudeness of their players.

People who play those games usually care about their avatar because of time and money invested in those games, so unlike griefers they won't just come harass you over and over with alts once you banned them from the region.

Treat those people like you would treat any rude, unwanted visitor.

[Sadira Desideri]

6 hours ago, Shudo said:

Times like these I wish we had a way to detect what HUDs a person was wearing as we can with any other attachment.

No kidding.

[Sadira Desideri]

2 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Your problem is not with the game creators but with the players, In my region i've setup some scripts so any of the "locals" can kick anyone they want for 30 minutes from the entire region. While that seem convenient, a game creator is not responsible for the rudeness of their players.

People who play those games usually care about their avatar because of time and money invested in those games, so unlike griefers they won't just come harass you over and over with alts once you banned them from the region.

Treat those people like you would treat any rude, unwanted visitor.

I do have a problem with the small group of players that are doing this. But I DO have a problem with the creators. The fact that they have so little respect for non players that they absolutely refuse to grant safe zone status to people who are not in their game. I do not like coercive tactics. My problem is DIRECTLY with the developers, and indirectly with the players. The developers could put an end to this behavior just by allowing non players safe-zone status when they request it. Currently, they not only refuse to do so because in their opinion "non players are not affected" (though we are, indirectly but adversely, affected, not by the game itself but the few bad players). After several attempts to contact them about this, all I get is a notecard back explaining why they won't act. 

I do ban them all, but I'm tired of needing to adjust my behavior and take time out of my day to deal with them. If the devs would take a minute to safe zone people's private land when asked, they would have a much better reputation and their players would be forced to respect people.  And I disagree about the creator not being responsible. They are not directly responsible for the rude behavior, but they ARE responsible for setting the example of not respecting non-players' privacy.

[Solar Legion]

The options you have and some of the steps you can take have been laid out for you - continually complaining here will accomplish nothing.

You face nothing at all new to many Second Life users, just a variation on a very old problem. One I am surprised it took so long to finally affect you.

You do - however - seem to have this belief that your tenants/friends behavior is somehow more the "norm" ... Let me assure you of the following: How they act around you and how their friends appear to act is quite meaningless. Countless conflict based RP systems exist out there and all of them have community members that are simply arses. Bloodlines had a similar enough issue and though they relented (making a Garlic Necklace item that is now well known) the issue there was slightly different. Their system could be actioned as spam or worse partially thanks requiring interaction through a dialog box and to the fact that some of the worst types tried to hide interaction with the system as something benign - such as a hug. The system you're having issues with doesn't do that and thus, most are wholly unaware of being roped in.

You really think that such a system will not attract - as their normal players - the sort you're having an issue with? Think again.

Your complaint concerning Safe Zones ... Being as blunt as possible while still trying to stay within the rules for here: You're not part of the game. There is no reason whatsoever for them to designate any area as Safe if that area isn't participating.

Like any unwelcome guest, you have controls/tools at your disposal already to handle the problem.

Your "friends" however ... participate. They don't want to be bothered? They can petition to have their parcel marked.

Amusingly, Estate Managers have the capability of banning whole groups these days - one more tool for you to use, if you have access.

[Sadira Desideri]

1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

The options you have and some of the steps you can take have been laid out for you - continually complaining here will accomplish nothing.

You face nothing at all new to many Second Life users, just a variation on a very old problem. One I am surprised it took so long to finally affect you.

You do - however - seem to have this belief that your tenants/friends behavior is somehow more the "norm" ... Let me assure you of the following: How they act around you and how their friends appear to act is quite meaningless. Countless conflict based RP systems exist out there and all of them have community members that are simply arses. Bloodlines had a similar enough issue and though they relented (making a Garlic Necklace item that is now well known) the issue there was slightly different. Their system could be actioned as spam or worse partially thanks requiring interaction through a dialog box and to the fact that some of the worst types tried to hide interaction with the system as something benign - such as a hug. The system you're having issues with doesn't do that and thus, most are wholly unaware of being roped in.

You really think that such a system will not attract - as their normal players - the sort you're having an issue with? Think again.

Your complaint concerning Safe Zones ... Being as blunt as possible while still trying to stay within the rules for here: You're not part of the game. There is no reason whatsoever for them to designate any area as Safe if that area isn't participating.

Like any unwelcome guest, you have controls/tools at your disposal already to handle the problem.

Your "friends" however ... participate. They don't want to be bothered? They can petition to have their parcel marked.

Amusingly, Estate Managers have the capability of banning whole groups these days - one more tool for you to use, if you have access.

No. Safe zone status currently will ONLY be granted to SIM OWNERS who PLAY. They are not the owners. They are tenants. Its not parcel owners. Their rule seems to state "sim" owners. My tenants can't get the sim designated as a safe zone. They can't even get their parcel designated. And while they have no reason (except their reputation) to designate non player land as safe zones, they really should be more respectful of non-players. Which really is the whole point of this string to begin with. I am not continually complaining. I'm clarifying things people are asking about.  I do all the steps and ban people who cause issues.  I'll have to look into that banning entire group tool. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the tip!

[Kyrah Abattoir]

8 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Your complaint concerning Safe Zones ... Being as blunt as possible while still trying to stay within the rules for here: You're not part of the game. There is no reason whatsoever for them to designate any area as Safe if that area isn't participating.

Pretty much, Given that the game lives solely inside the HUD of PARTICIPATING players, the game might aswel not exist from your point of view. What you DO have are rude visitors and somehow believe that it's not up to you to police your own land.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Solar Legion]

2 minutes ago, Sadira Desideri said:

No. Safe zone status currently will ONLY be granted to SIM OWNERS who PLAY. They are not the owners. They are tenants. Its not parcel owners. Their rule seems to state "sim" owners. My tenants can't get the sim designated as a safe zone. They can't even get their parcel designated. And while they have no reason (except their reputation) to designate non player land as safe zones, they really should be more respectful of non-players. Which really is the whole point of this string to begin with. I am not continually complaining. I'm clarifying things people are asking about.  I do all the steps and ban people who cause issues.  I'll have to look into that banning entire group tool. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the tip!

Not a problem on that last - it's one of many options out there.

On the rest ... their reputation is irrelevant to anyone not looking for RPGs and similar within Second Life, especially since they're not spamming people with animation requests.

[Blush Bravin]

38 minutes ago, Sadira Desideri said:

They have never gone on to someone's private parcels to attack people, and the people they associate with in the game don't, either. Like I said, its a small contingent that do this, and I don't believe in punishing an entire group or community for the bad behavior of a small percentage of that group. Most actually do respect the privacy of others. They never expected non-players to be verbally abused for asking that their private property be respected.  Yes they knew what "could" happen in the game, but had never anticipated the deplorable behavior of the truly aggressive players.

The problem is that your friends are participating in a game that allows their members to act without recourse when they harass others in the same area as where they live. The creators of the game they are participating in do not see any issue with their members behaving as such and have no consequences for that behavior. So, it's really your friends who have a decision to make. They either stop participating in this jackass of a group or they should move regardless of you telling them not to go. Again, it's personal responsibility. This time it's your friends who need to man up.

[Sadira Desideri]

1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

Not a problem on that last - it's one of many options out there.

On the rest ... their reputation is irrelevant to anyone not looking for RPGs and similar within Second Life, especially since they're not spamming people with animation requests.

Yeah that's the really annoying and frustrating part. They are right that the GAME ITSELF doesn't affect non players. But the behavior of a small group of players who are following the dev's "don't give a darn, don't need to respect non players' privacy" that's the problem. But as I said, I think it all starts from above. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I believe the general attitude of a group is a direct reflection of the attitude of that group's leadership.  An "us vs them" attitude (in this case players vs non-players, not even angels v demons) is demonstrated at the top. Just kinda sad. Anyway I've pretty much worn out my side of this argument so I'll just go back to dealing with things as they happen. Thanks to everyone who replied