$#@! Ban Lines

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's technically do-able (the particles might not work, but leaving that aside), the problem is that it's voluntary on the part of the orb owner, so although it's been suggested before, it's never gotten much traction.

On the other hand, a recent effort maps the extent of existing orbs, just based on the disruptions they cause to flight. I'd have thought this mechanical "crowdsourcing" of data wouldn't work, but I saw a live data demo at some point that looked pretty promising. (Unfortunately I don't have a link ready to hand and I haven't kept up with what further progress was made in the past few months. For that matter, it could even be mentioned in one of these several extant threads on the topic, and I'd never notice.)

That's kinda the whole problem. Folks on both sides take this "Land" metaphor so seriously. It's just a software program, a bunch of pixels; it's not Land, it's Land Role Play.

Yes but what if you wanna RP some old grump that shakes their fist and says get off my lawn you rotten kids.

Paw, get the shotgun

[Hunter Stern]

Ive never liked Orbs or Banlines myself for my ownland. I prefer using scripted guard bots instead to raise the level of entertainment. Some years ago I scripted attacking spiderlings that I was originally going to use a rezzed combat bots, but they worked great for giving people who crossed over enough time to see and react and leave (well in most cases 😁)

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Hunter Stern said:

Ive never liked Orbs or Banlines myself for my ownland. I prefer using scripted guard bots instead to raise the level of entertainment. Some years ago I scripted attacking spiderlings that I was originally going to use a rezzed combat bots, but they worked great for giving people who crossed over enough time to see and react and leave (well in most cases 😁)

I wonder if my hornet swarm could be scripted so that as they push you, they are stinging you, and if you don't get off the (life enabled) property fast enough, your life drops to zero and you die and are teleported home.

 

[Rosekin1982]

I fail to see what is so fascinating about my parcel that anyone would wish to come onto it. I do not begrudge people using the road, and I do agree the system needs improving so they can drive on it without hitting ban lines or no warning security orbs. Some have tried saying go rent private land. I was doing this before, and it is far more expensive. My current parcel on mainland is more then twice the size of the one I had been renting and is costing me LESS per month. I really do not think it is unreasonable to expect some privacy on (virtual) land that I am paying monthly to be able to use, so yeah, I think that entitles me to decide who is allowed on my property. If I wanted to share my builds and such with others I would sell them on MP. If you want to have safer travel for driving and flying (no water on my property so sailing does not apply here) that is fine. I got no issue with you needing time to pass through or over. But do not expect me to open my entire parcel for you to freely explore and do as you wish on.

 

Oh, and I got more random visits on the private rental property then you would think. Was why I started using security orbs and limited access to begin with. It is sad that I actually did have to start doing this. Had at least three people that came onto my rental property and proceeded to start using my furniture and wander through my house. All three refused to leave when asked, then proceeded to get nasty with me when I ejected and banned them. So far have not had a similar issue on Mainland, but until recently I was keeping it set to limited access with ban lines. So I will see how the security orb option works (and yes I have mine set to 30 seconds warning, plenty of time to leave before being ejected.)

Edited April 1, 2019 by Rosekin1982

[Female Winslet]

Looks like there is increasing movement toward addressing this problem in an organized, and hopefully productive, way. Those who are interested in getting together, getting organized, and trying to work with LL to solve this problem so it stops coming up repeatedly and interfering with SL users, please do let me know in world and not on the forums. I seem to be the defecto point of contact at the moment, though that may change.  

Thanks. 

[Fionalein]

I guess one of teh culprits here is LL. There simply is no option to have tier based land ownership off-site. It has to be on mainland and not everyone wants to use the mainland "features" like neighbours or cohesive builds... Some mainland users just want to be alone, they are not on mainland because they love mainland but because they have no other place to go.

This should have been addressed a long time ago and it simply is too late to fix now.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Fionalein

[Blush Bravin]

Apparently there are many who have a misguided notion that mainland was built as some kind of huge community where everyone shares everything. It's simply not so. The biggest difference between renting land from an estate or mainland owner and owning mainland is that there is no middle man to pay rent to. I buy mainland because I don't want to pay a middle man. I want to deal directly with Linden Lab. 

Read the mainland policies to see what mainland is really about.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Mainland_policies

There isn't anything about forced communal living in the policy. Thankfully mainland is a free for all with few limitations. It's what makes it so enjoyable IMO. Sure it means people can be jackasses but so what. We deal with it!

[Shudo]

8 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

Sure it means people can be jackasses but so what. We deal with it!

It's true! and as you no doubt know Blush, when one gets a jackass neighbor, he will often seem to be gone in a few months.

Maybe there is a good correlation between someone being obnoxious and then one day his plot turning yellow, with $50/sqm on it (for a week or two), then turning into abandoned land, it's certainly something I notice a lot.

[Blush Bravin]

31 minutes ago, Shudo said:

It's true! and as you no doubt know Blush, when one gets a jackass neighbor, he will often seem to be gone in a few months.

Maybe there is a good correlation between someone being obnoxious and then one day his plot turning yellow, with $50/sqm on it (for a week or two), then turning into abandoned land, it's certainly something I notice a lot.

I have been very fortunate with my neighbors in Barcola. I could not have asked for better in fact. I have however lived in many different regions in my many years here and yes, I've noticed that pattern as well. Sometimes I think the jackass comes out when a flipper wants to sell land to the current owners in the region and thinks if they are annoying enough we'll buy out their land for sale. That never works with me. That's what derendering and muting are for.  

[BilliJo Aldrin]

18 hours ago, Rosekin1982 said:

I fail to see what is so fascinating about my parcel that anyone would wish to come onto it. I do not begrudge people using the road, and I do agree the system needs improving so they can drive on it without hitting ban lines or no warning security orbs. Some have tried saying go rent private land. I was doing this before, and it is far more expensive. My current parcel on mainland is more then twice the size of the one I had been renting and is costing me LESS per month. I really do not think it is unreasonable to expect some privacy on (virtual) land that I am paying monthly to be able to use, so yeah, I think that entitles me to decide who is allowed on my property. If I wanted to share my builds and such with others I would sell them on MP. If you want to have safer travel for driving and flying (no water on my property so sailing does not apply here) that is fine. I got no issue with you needing time to pass through or over. But do not expect me to open my entire parcel for you to freely explore and do as you wish on.

 

Oh, and I got more random visits on the private rental property then you would think. Was why I started using security orbs and limited access to begin with. It is sad that I actually did have to start doing this. Had at least three people that came onto my rental property and proceeded to start using my furniture and wander through my house. All three refused to leave when asked, then proceeded to get nasty with me when I ejected and banned them. So far have not had a similar issue on Mainland, but until recently I was keeping it set to limited access with ban lines. So I will see how the security orb option works (and yes I have mine set to 30 seconds warning, plenty of time to leave before being ejected.)

Ban lines never encroach on LL roads, Everyone's property is well back from the actual road surface. Crappy drivers might leave the pavement and get hung up on your ban line, but that's their problem, not yours.

 

[Female Winslet]

16 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

Apparently there are many who have a misguided notion that mainland was built as some kind of huge community where everyone shares everything.

Well, I gotta admit I've never heard anyone say that. Who would get that idea?

5 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Ban lines never encroach on LL roads, Everyone's property is well back from the actual road surface. Crappy drivers might leave the pavement and get hung up on your ban line, but that's their problem, not yours.

 

Actually, they are often quite close to the roadside. Depends.

But the last person who tried to show me how easy it was for any decent driver to avoid the banlines didn't even last five minutes before hitting one. Would you like to try next? 🙂 I'd love to see somebody who could do it. But the scarcity of such persons seems to show that it's rather difficult.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Female Winslet

[Shudo]

6 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Ban lines never encroach on LL roads, Everyone's property is well back from the actual road surface.

If only that were true. http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Tethys/195/72/92 I've derendered the road for this photo so you can see.

It's now abandoned, but a previous owner had ban lines here. I lost count of the number of times they caught me.

There are quite a few of these in Prime Granite, and a few more in Snow.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Shudo

[BlackBlade Smit]

You know, in real life, they call it an Easement, and I'm more than willing that LL make a requirement for me to not be allowed certain security option on certain portions of land. And Honestly security orbs in the sky above the access line limit, should not be allowed, IMO . I think it's more than reasonable to ask that any "ban lines" be set a certain distance from the roads, waterways. Because frankly, they are /not/ all set up with "plenty of room."

[Resi Pfeffer]

On 3/31/2019 at 8:48 AM, Female Winslet said:

I really have to wonder about the bolded parts when people say that. Really? The entire grid is practically empty, but you have problems with people coming into your land? What's going on there that is so interesting? I track visitors on one of my land parcels and even with big displays setup for public use and contribution during the holiday season, I never got more than 20 visitors per day. Now that the holiday season is low, it's in the single digits. And that's a pretty big parcel that I want people to visit and enjoy.  

We should leave that up to the user. What you do, might not be ok for others.
Speaking for myself, i rented my first parcel to make it my hideout. No one knew about and i was happy to have a small place to decorate and to change clothes in privacy.
These days i dont want that anymore, because i thought about why i still like SL after all these years. Its because you see something new every day. And nearly everything is made by other users. So i thought i have to pay back, somehow. Therefore i got much more space, tried to make it look nice, removed ban lines and orbs and made it a public spot you even can find using the search, what attracts a few visitors a day.

People are different, and people can change their opinions.

[Ethan Paslong]

3 hours ago, Shudo said:

There are quite a few of these in Prime Granite, and a few more in Snow.

bring it to attention of moles or support and i'm pretty sure they'll fix that "soon"

[Shudo]

7 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

bring it to attention of moles or support and i'm pretty sure they'll fix that "soon"

No, they don't care. They never have, and they never will. Look at the 14 meter wide channel in the new SSP area and you see nothing changes.

This road and many more have been like this for 16 years. Countless complaints, all ignored.

Nothing will change, the Lab are useless as they fill our skies with black stars and plonk down yet another unfinished continent.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Shudo

[BilliJo Aldrin]

5 hours ago, Female Winslet said:

Well, I gotta admit I've never heard anyone say that. Who would get that idea?

Actually, they are often quite close to the roadside. Depends.

But the last person who tried to show me how easy it was for any decent driver to avoid the banlines didn't even last five minutes before hitting one. Would you like to try next? 🙂 I'd love to see somebody who could do it. But the scarcity of such persons seems to show that it's rather difficult.

I've flown through hundreds of sims in my air ship  flying 50 m above LL roads, and almost never get hung up on a ban line or a zero notice security orb.

The problem with most cars/ motorcycles is that they are largely undrivable and uncontrollable, so yes you'll hit ban lines constantly, but at least that stops them before their car ends up in your pool.

I have zero sympathy for people that can't stay on the right of way.

Edited April 2, 2019 by BilliJo Aldrin
added a line

[Qie Niangao]

It's true that the road surface often fails to indicate the right-of-way boundaries. One gets in the habit of watching parcel boundaries -- but that's really ugly and aggressively non-immersive.

This used to be an issue for the SLRR, too, but rail users lobbied long and hard, and we had an especially rail-friendly Mole-wrangler (Michael Linden) who helped a lot, including dealing skillfully with some extraordinarily uncooperative abutters. So if there's currently adjacent abandoned land near troublespots, it's a great opportunity, and very worth trying a support ticket to get it fixed while it's easy.

Waterways are a whole different problem. Even with parcel boundaries showing, the channel is pretty invisible on the surface, unless I'm missing some TPV trick. (Yeah, I know there are HUDs, but they're kinda script-heavy to drag across sim borders.) I find it frustrating enough that I'm amazed sailing ever caught on as such a big deal in SL.

[Female Winslet]

9 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

We should leave that up to the user. What you do, might not be ok for others.
Speaking for myself, i rented my first parcel to make it my hideout. No one knew about and i was happy to have a small place to decorate and to change clothes in privacy.
These days i dont want that anymore, because i thought about why i still like SL after all these years. Its because you see something new every day. And nearly everything is made by other users. So i thought i have to pay back, somehow. Therefore i got much more space, tried to make it look nice, removed ban lines and orbs and made it a public spot you even can find using the search, what attracts a few visitors a day.

The point of the post you were responding to had absolutely nothing to do with how people “should” or “should not” be using their parcels. It had to do with the unlikelihood of people having a significant number of intruders given how large the grid is and how deserted the great majority of land is. 

But I do applaud you for contributing to the grid. I try to do likewise. Although I have never used ban lines or orbs ever. 

[Female Winslet]

10 hours ago, BlackBlade Smit said:

You know, in real life, they call it an Easement, and I'm more than willing that LL make a requirement for me to not be allowed certain security option on certain portions of land. And Honestly security orbs in the sky above the access line limit, should not be allowed, IMO . I think it's more than reasonable to ask that any "ban lines" be set a certain distance from the roads, waterways. Because frankly, they are /not/ all set up with "plenty of room."

A few of us have been discussing approaching LL with ideas like this.

Ban lines got lowered during my several year break from SL. But I am told that a big part of why they got lowered was the interference they posed for things like flying. People recognized that the only advantage that mainland offers over private sims was that there’s a lot of space. So if they couldn’t use the space, why bother using mainland instead of renting private sim space? So people abandoned mainland and LL realized it had to do something to address the ban line problem. So they lowered their effectiveness. 

I wasn’t active in SL at the time, but this story makes sense to me. I was a very active aviator but I gave it up because of frustration with ban lines making it impossible to fly. And I avoided mainland because of all the ban lines (and the sheer  ugliness of it—mainland looks a lot better these days). So I can readily see how that could happen. And I see it happening again now because people have replaced the ban lines with orbs that still make it difficult to use the extra space mainland offers. 

6 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Waterways are a whole different problem. Even with parcel boundaries showing, the channel is pretty invisible on the surface, unless I'm missing some TPV trick. (Yeah, I know there are HUDs, but they're kinda script-heavy to drag across sim borders.) I find it frustrating enough that I'm amazed sailing ever caught on as such a big deal in SL.

That’s why places like Blake Sea are such a big deal and why little sailing happens in   places like Sansara. Places like Sea of Fables and Mare Secundus are nice spots to sail. But they are connected to everywhere else by narrow channels that are made impassable by bam lines and orbs. Unlike cars, boats drift on the water so they don’t turn or stop instantly or precisely. Sailboats, in particular, move according to how the wind blows them, so if you get an orb wanting you out in ten seconds, then your ability to do it depends on whether the wind allows for that. And your ability to turn to avoid banlines is also correspondingly limited. 

Quote

I have zero sympathy for people that can't stay on the right of way.

Well, I asked you to show me. I gave you a tour of my snow leopard preserve (§okay, you had to leave before it was finished) so it seems like fair is fair. 🙂 Road travel seems like the easiest way to stay within the parcel boundaries or perhaps using some aircraft or boats that behave nothing like boats or aircraft by being able to stop/turn instantly and doing it in a setting where you can actually see the right of way edges. The right of way is more readily visible than on air or water and cars can stop or turn a lot faster because they do so using the ground instead of the air. But I started in SL in July 2006. And I have never seen anyone who could do this without hitting some ban line or orb within a few minutes. So if you can, I’ll be majorly impressed. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Female Winslet

[Blush Bravin]

Yesterday I got the notion to travel by boat from my home in Barcola with a goal of reaching as close as possible to the area where the new Linden homes are located. Because I knew I would be encountering some very small canals I didn't try to take a sailboat because in reality you would not try to navigate inland steams using sailboats in the physical world either, so I took my motor boat. In the whole journey I encountered only one orb notice and because I was actually in the channel and not on private land though I got the warning the orb was powerless to eject me. My biggest difficulty was changes in water level and having to jump over a land bridge and find a new rez zone to rez my boat. Even in that case I only had the issue twice. I didn't get anywhere as near to the area as I hoped but all in all it was an enjoyable journey.

I would think that had I taken a seaplane and followed the same path I wouldn't have had any issues either. I just had to follow the public access routes.

My father was a commercial pilot and you know when he would rent a plane for a family vacation he always followed the highway from our home to the destination. I asked him why he didn't just cut across the countryside. He said it's was easier than mapping a course and if there was a mechanical issue he was sure to find a place for an emergency landing.

[Resi Pfeffer]

12 hours ago, Female Winslet said:

It had to do with the unlikelihood of people having a significant number of intruders given how large the grid is and how deserted the great majority of land is. 

Maybe your intention wasnt bad at all, but you are not in the position to tell others whats significant and whats not.
You can calculate the unlikelihood as much as you want, but if someone sets up ban lines because 5 minutes ago a unknown idiot appeared and refused to leave, its their decision and not yours. 

[Female Winslet]

7 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

Maybe your intention wasnt bad at all, but you are not in the position to tell others whats significant and whats not.
You can calculate the unlikelihood as much as you want, but if someone sets up ban lines because 5 minutes ago a unknown idiot appeared and refused to leave, its their decision and not yours. 

Again, you seem to be missing the point. Nobody is disputing anything you said. 

But the question was asked: why is the 300 person ban list provided with all parcels not sufficient to address the issue?

It seems highly unlikely that any normal person is getting enough visitors for that to not be enough. But no one seems willing to answer the question. Perhaps you'd like to explain why the 300 person ban list isn't enough?

"I get to decide if I want to setup ban lines even if it's only one person" is a true statement, but it doesn't answer the question of why that's necessary when you have a three hundred person ban list that can more than accommodate that one person. "Because I decide I want to do that instead of using the ban list" may also be a true statement. But it doesn't answer the question either. These types of answers suggest that the tools may be adequate, but certain people simply do not want to use them.

The point of the question is not to debate whether anyone has the right to anything. The point is to examine the adequacy of various options for dealing with people's issues. Some of us in this discussion are interested in actually trying to solve problems. Doing that requires examining the tools and options available and why they are adequate or inadequate. So can anyone point at why the 300 entry ban list that comes with all parcels is not adequate?

[Resi Pfeffer]

12 minutes ago, Female Winslet said:

Again, you seem to be missing the point. Nobody is disputing anything you said. 

But the question was asked: why is the 300 person ban list provided with all parcels not sufficient to address the issue?

It seems highly unlikely that any normal person is getting enough visitors for that to not be enough. But no one seems willing to answer the question. Perhaps you'd like to explain why the 300 person ban list isn't enough?

Ever thought about the possibility you missed the point?
Its not about if someone ever will be able to fill the ban list completely, its about people dont want to get any strangers in their homes. If someone needs to add a name to the entry ban list, "harm" is already done.

[Female Winslet]

19 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

Yesterday I got the notion to travel by boat from my home in Barcola with a goal of reaching as close as possible to the area where the new Linden homes are located. Because I knew I would be encountering some very small canals I didn't try to take a sailboat because in reality you would not try to navigate inland steams using sailboats in the physical world either, so I took my motor boat. In the whole journey I encountered only one orb notice and because I was actually in the channel and not on private land though I got the warning the orb was powerless to eject me. My biggest difficulty was changes in water level and having to jump over a land bridge and find a new rez zone to rez my boat. Even in that case I only had the issue twice. I didn't get anywhere as near to the area as I hoped but all in all it was an enjoyable journey.

Sticking to wide open protected seas, as your map shows you did, is a huge help for avoiding ban lines and orbs indeed. I, on the other hand, tried to do the same via helicopter the other day. I got shot down by a zero warning orb on the very next sim after I started.

19 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

My father was a commercial pilot and you know when he would rent a plane for a family vacation he always followed the highway from our home to the destination. I asked him why he didn't just cut across the countryside. He said it's was easier than mapping a course and if there was a mechanical issue he was sure to find a place for an emergency landing.

I'm going to guess that he didn't follow exactly above the highway every single moment. He probably strayed from side to side a bit. Did anyone shoot him down for it? 🙂 As far as I know, that's a unique to SL thing. 

In any case, if you want to make the analogy to real life, then I think you really have to deal with how real life actually is and not just parts of it. As pointed out before, there is precedent with how real life handled the issue of aviation over people's land. LL has already done something similar by lowering the ban lines. If we want to follow the RL method, then this is an obvious solution.

If we want to decide that SL and RL are not at all comparable, then maybe not.