Is it time for LL to provide an inworld grid-wide redelivery service?

[Gabriele Graves]

34 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

The simple fact is, if merchants want to offer redelivery, there is already a vendor system that does it. Come to think of it.. I dont know of any stores that don't already use it. Every store i shop at and have visited through various hunts over the almost 12 years in SL have used Caspervend. Do you have something against them? 

There were definitely other systems and major vendors who used them.  There sure was quite an upheaval when one closed up shop not that long ago too.  Many then switched to Caspervend and obviously there are now fewer choices for off-the-shelf systems.  Even now, I know that there are at least a few other systems being used, possibly home-grown ones.  You probably move in much different circles.

Besides, I wasn't even the one to bring up that system and my OP didn't mention any specific systems (deliberately so), so no, it is ridiculous to even think that I have anything against them or any other vendor systems just because of this topic.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Gabriele Graves
changed 'are' to 'were'

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

There were definitely other systems and major vendors who used them.  There sure was quite an upheaval when one closed up shop not that long ago too.  Many then switched to Caspervend and obviously there are now fewer choices for off-the-shelf systems.  Even now, I know that there are at least a few other systems being used, possibly home-grown ones.  You probably move in much different circles.

Besides, I wasn't even the one to bring up that system and my OP didn't mention any specific systems (deliberately so), so no, it is ridiculous to even think that I have anything against them or any other vendor systems just because of this topic.

So, you are just going to ignore the valid points i made?

Why would a merchant want to voluntarily move all of there stock to a new system just because its made by LL? 

Seeing as LL takes a cut from the MP, what makes you think they wouldn't do the same with an inworld vendor? 

Why switch if they will take a cut just like the free Caspervend one does? 

Why not support actual merchants like Caspervend and the like rather than push for LL to make something and take money away from current merchants?  

[Klytyna]

9 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

rather than push for LL to make something

... badly and then charge through the nose for, which everyone will quickly learn to hate and constantly complain about...
 

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, you are just going to ignore the valid points i made?

Why would a merchant want to voluntarily move all of there stock to a new system just because its made by LL? 

Seeing as LL takes a cut from the MP, what makes you think they wouldn't do the same with an inworld vendor? 

Why switch if they will take a cut just like the free Caspervend one does? 

Why not support actual merchants like Caspervend and the like rather than push for LL to make something and take money away from current merchants?  

No, I did not ignore your points.  I thought your points were well made and let your opinion stand, that is all.  My goal is not to dominate the opinions here.

I don't have all the answers, nobody does.  Though I might theorise a vendor might possibly prefer to go with an LL system by preference to ensure it will be around for the duration of SL, or they may not.  I have already stated standardisation as a possible reason.  LL might take a cut, it certainly would need to be paid for to be developed, or they could spread the cost across the user base, who knows?  It isn't about not supporting existing merchants, a counter view is, why should LL not be able to develop this for their own platform?

Besides this strays from my point, which was redelivery and I stated my reasons for bringing it up in my OP.  

[Jules Catlyn]

8 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

No, I did not ignore your points.  I thought your points were well made and let your opinion stand, that is all.  My goal is not to dominate the opinions here.

I don't have all the answers, nobody does.  Though I might theorise a vendor might possibly prefer to go with an LL system by preference to ensure it will be around for the duration of SL, or they may not.  I have already stated standardisation as a possible reason.  LL might take a cut, it certainly would need to be paid for to be developed, or they could spread the cost across the user base, who knows?  It isn't about not supporting existing merchants, a counter view is, why should LL not be able to develop this for their own platform?

Besides this strays from my point, which was redelivery and I stated my reasons for bringing it up in my OP.  

Could LL make a vendor system? They probably could. Should they make a vendor system? Definitely not. It is like the circus act with the plates on the sticks. if LL make a vendor system it is another task they have to manage besides already managing all the other tasks they have to keep this world going. An inworld creator of a vendor system only has one task (not being demeaning of the work they have to do) and that is to keep the vendorsystem going and up to date. Yes, i see the risk of such a creator suddenly having to leave Second Life for some reason and then we have to find another solution but in my opinion it is still better to have one dedicated developer working to keep their vendor system going i.e. only having to keep one plate in the air.

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

The simple fact is, if merchants want to offer redelivery, there is already a vendor system that does it. Come to think of it.. I dont know of any stores that don't already use it. Every store i shop at and have visited through various hunts over the almost 12 years in SL have used Caspervend. Do you have something against them? 

Fascinating - everyone's been using a system for the past 12 years that's only been around for eight years...

https://wiki.casperdns.com/index.php/CasperVend_2/Introduction#History

Hippovend used to be popular and E2V was very popular until it ended recently (including Niramyth, where you mentioned you got your avatar) and some of the largest stores use and a E2V-developed system that they host on their own  severs. There are others - Bejambled was another one I've run across a few times.

The advantage to using Linden Lab back-end instead of a third party is that Linden Lab already knows this information because in the end their systems are the ones that do the actual transferring of assets - third party systems only tell the Lab asset system what to do.

[Blush Bravin]

I loved my E2V vendor system. I had to switch when they closed up shop. I'm mostly satisfied with the new system, but still wish E2V was here as it is my favorite vendor system by far. I'm not in favor of the lab getting into direct competition with any content creators, so that would preclude them making an in-world vendor system IMO. However, I do wish they made redelivery possible on the Marketplace. I know a merchant can initiate a redelivery, but customers should have the ability to request a redelivery on their own. I think if that feature ever becomes available for the marketplace, I'd close up my in-world shop and stop using a vendor system at all, in favor of going straight marketplace.

[Bradford Mint]

5 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

If LL were to suddenly say "HEY GUYS!!! Here is a free vendor system that works just like Capervend!"

1. Caspervend could possibly sue them for breach of contract. There is a reason LL doesn't make and sell clothing, houses, furniture, Skins, Avatars, and the like. They would be in direct competition with their customer base. 
??

 

Breach of *what* contract? Where is the contract that LL have that says they won't make anything?  They have already been in competition with their customer base before in one form or another.

An LL vendor system was on the cards for Direct Delivery phase 2 but it didn't happen and yes, they wanted to take a percentage cut of each sale, not exactly unfair but not a compelling reason to move other than for those who had no existing vendor system. Only then might it have made sense to offer a vendor system that hooked directly into inventory based delivery.

[Tarani Tempest]

40 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I do wish they made redelivery possible on the Marketplace. I know a merchant can initiate a redelivery, but customers should have the ability to request a redelivery on their own. I think if that feature ever becomes available for the marketplace, I'd close up my in-world shop and stop using a vendor system at all, in favor of going straight marketplace.

I do think adding a redelivery system to the Marketplace is a great idea. Something I think they should have implemented a long time ago.  The Marketplace is their territory, their system...so it makes a ton of sense for them to offer that service.

I personally would not close my inworld shop though. 50% of my sales are inworld, granted.... that is split between events and my own shop.  And I still think the vendor system and redelivery is my responsibility there.

[Selene Gregoire]

37 minutes ago, Tarani Tempest said:

I personally would not close my inworld shop though.

As some who uses the MP as a catalog and makes the vast majority of her purchases in world, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[Blush Bravin]

56 minutes ago, Tarani Tempest said:

I personally would not close my inworld shop though. 50% of my sales are inworld

 

18 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

As some who uses the MP as a catalog and makes the vast majority of her purchases in world, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I tend to make the majority of my purchases in-world as well, but since 90% of my sales come from the marketplace, I tend to think that the added cost of tier isn't worth keeping an in-world presence.

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

 

I tend to make the majority of my purchases in-world as well, but since 90% of my sales come from the marketplace, I tend to think that the added cost of tier isn't worth keeping an in-world presence.

I'm sorry to hear that. I wish more people cared enough to make the majority of their purchases in world. I think people have gotten far too used to being able to order things online (Amazon). I much prefer to support the local businesses. I tend to view my SL purchases the same way with local meaning in world. SL just wouldn't be the same if everyone closed up shop and went MP only. Many stores are beautifully crafted and the sims are wonderfully decorated. A joy to behold. It would be a huge loss, imo. At that point, I'd probably leave SL permanently.

Sometimes change isn't for the better.

[Bradford Mint]

1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I wish more people cared enough to make the majority of their purchases in world.

Sometimes the issue is that the customer experience is lost though because the vendor creates what they feel is experience enhancing but in reality, it's a pain in the proverbial.  Requiring visitors to trawl through a store because the owner thinks it looks cool when in reality it just frustrates, leaving the customer performing camera gymnastics just to buy something.  In frustration, some just give up and leave.

If you want to create something pretty, a store isn't necessarily the place for it.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I'm sorry to hear that. I wish more people cared enough to make the majority of their purchases in world. I think people have gotten far too used to being able to order things online (Amazon). I much prefer to support the local businesses. I tend to view my SL purchases the same way with local meaning in world. SL just wouldn't be the same if everyone closed up shop and went MP only. Many stores are beautifully crafted and the sims are wonderfully decorated. A joy to behold. It would be a huge loss, imo. At that point, I'd probably leave SL permanently.

Sometimes change isn't for the better.

Its not like online shopping for SL is something new.. X-street and Onrez were there before the MP. LL bought them in early 2009. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 minute ago, Bradford Mint said:

Sometimes the issue is that the customer experience is lost though because the vendor creates what they feel is experience enhancing but in reality, it's a pain in the proverbial.  Requiring visitors to trawl through a store because the owner thinks it looks cool when in reality it just frustrates, leaving the customer performing camera gymnastics just to buy something.  In frustration, some just give up and leave.

If you want to create something pretty, a store isn't necessarily the place for it.

THIS!!! a thousand times this! I despise walking through gardens, hedge mazes and row after row of items not for sale just to get to the store where you then have to try and figure out their layout of items. Where is the new stuff? Wait, the new stuff is mixed in with the old stuff by category? But the fantasy skins are separated by color and not release date? Why is this so confusing? Some stores set things up really weirdly. 

[Selene Gregoire]

3 minutes ago, Bradford Mint said:

Sometimes the issue is that the customer experience is lost though because the vendor creates what they feel is experience enhancing but in reality, it's a pain in the proverbial.  Requiring visitors to trawl through a store because the owner thinks it looks cool when in reality it just frustrates, leaving the customer performing camera gymnastics just to buy something.  In frustration, some just give up and leave.

If you want to create something pretty, a store isn't necessarily the place for it.

If the store isn't attractive, customers are less likely to enter, or make purchases.

2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Its not like online shopping for SL is something new.. X-street and Onrez were there before the MP. LL bought them in early 2009. 

I've been an SL resident since 2004. I had a strong dislike for X-Street. What little I did purchase by that method was from the Boutique. I will always prefer making my purchases in world. That's not going to change.

[Bradford Mint]

2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

If the store isn't attractive, customers are less likely to enter, or make purchases.

All I can say is "that depends".

I don't go into the local hardware shop to buy stuff because it's pretty.

[Selene Gregoire]

Just now, Bradford Mint said:

All I can say is "that depends".

I don't go into the local hardware shop to buy stuff because it's pretty.

I don't go to hardware stores to buy groceries or clothes.

Even so, if the store doesn't have at least some visual appeal, regardless of what I am shopping for, I won't go in. Although, one would expect a hardware store to look a little bit "run down" if they've been in business for very long. But it better be clean and tidy or no sale. 

[Bradford Mint]

Selene, I don't argue with your perspective at all and I agree that some of the SL stores, like their RL equivalents are a work of art.  However, that doesn't mean I can find what I want any faster and I have been known to go into the hardware store, see the queue and then pull out my phone, go to their online site, choose "Click and Collect" and I jump the queue - because that's how their sales system works and i'm only interested in the transaction, not the pretty shelf layout.

The customer is always right (except when they're wrong)

[Tarani Tempest]

I do almost all of my shopping inworld as well.  For a couple of reasons.  There are a few stores that don't keep their MP stores updated and I like experience of wandering around.  I like to see stores that are all done up and have personality.  That is the reason I am in SL, to see some stuff, do some stuff and make some stuff .  So, I want some eye candy when I am out and about.

Others don't enjoy the experience, I get that.   That is where Marketplace comes in.  To each their own.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Tarani Tempest

[Parhelion Palou]

I buy almost exclusively from in-world stores, primarily because most of my purchases fall into the home & garden category. I want to see the item in-world where I can examine it myself. If I can't I won't buy it. Clothing is slightly different because generally all you see is a picture whether it's in-world or Marketplace, but getting the demo in-world, trying it, then buying the item is much easier in-world.

As for an LL-provided redelivery service: I don't like the idea. LL had to provide the ability to exchange Lindens between residents as a basic function of the world, but they should stay clear of anything after that. They already have a large amount of work to do with limited resources. Would you want redelivery to go down for weeks while LL fixes it (as has happened with the land auction system)?

[Lindal Kidd]

Re-railing this...

I'm abysmally ignorant when it comes to the underpinnings of SL, but it seems to me that there are two things LL could do without slapping the vendor system creators in the face.

1.  Provide a Marketplace-wide redelivery service.  As someone else said, they already have the transaction information, and in fact they store it permanently, as seen by the individual's Marketplace History.

2.  Provide a data base and access to it, possibly via LSL.  Right now, as I understand it, the vendor system creator provides this data base on an outside website.  At least, when I've used redelivery services, they point me to a web page where all my redeliverable items are listed.  The problem with any system that relies on a third party web site is that said website could go away.  I have purchased several tools over the years that no longer work because the creator left SL and the back end website that supported the tool is no longer there.  Perhaps LL could be the "keeper" of the redelivery data, and the vendor creators could include code in their vendors to access it?

And, by the way, a big shout of approval to CasperTech.  Thanks for all you do for the grid!

[Phil Deakins]

I'm curious. Those who said that accidentally deleting something is one of the main reason for redeliveries - where are things accidentally deleted from?

It can't be from the inventory because it would go into Trash and would be recoverable from there. We don't accidentally delete something (put it into trash) and then immediately empty the trash. It can't be from where it is rezzed because it's only a few weeks ago that everyone was saying that they don't buy anything unless it's copyable, so accidentally deleting something that's rezzed isn't a problem. So I'm curious as to where stuff can be deleted from to make the need of redeliveries useful. I'm just curious.

[Tarani Tempest]

3 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I'm curious. Those who said that accidentally deleting something is one of the main reason for redeliveries - where are things accidentally deleted from?

It can't be from the inventory because it would go into Trash and would be recoverable from there. We don't accidentally delete something (put it into trash) and then immediately empty the trash. It can't be from where it is rezzed because it's only a few weeks ago that everyone was saying that they don't buy anything unless it's copyable, so accidentally deleting something that's rezzed isn't a problem. So I'm curious as to where stuff can be deleted from to make the need of redeliveries useful. I'm just curious.

I personally have not had this happen....I have accidentally deleted stuff for sure, but I just fish it out of my trash.  But, I did have a friend went on an inventory cleaning spree, a couple of days later she could not find her entire shoe folder.  Turns out she did accidentally delete it, but she did not check her trash before dumping it entirely. Yikes !

I have always needed to use the redelivery system for items that did not actually deliver to me in the first place.  This happens fairly often, especially when shopping at a very busy event. So far, every store Ive had that happen with had a redelivery system in place.  I personally have not run into one that does not, at least..not yet.

[Lindal Kidd]

Phil, an awful lot of people empty their Trash folders without looking in them (me, most of the time).  We trust that the only stuff in there are things we put there.  However, there is a bug that sometimes will throw entire folders into the Trash, all by itself.  People have deleted huge sections of their inventory due to this.