Firestorm 5.0.11 New Mesh Building Tools

[CSVirtual]

What is the title : Firestorm 5.0.11 New Mesh Building Tools

What is the purpose to use an example from a designer, when you could create it yourself to illustrate the goal of the new tool ?

Who is the troll, the one who dares to ask, or the people who unfairly took the tree example ? 

What I say is, it was not necessary to take an example from a designer, no matter the good skill or not of this designer. 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by CSVirtual

[CSVirtual]

It is better to speak about easy to understand example, neutral examples. And to test if the tool is reliable, then to discuss how that helps users.

As I read the mesh Li formulae was maybe not so good, so no matter how you like it or not, it is too late. Visibly the formulae will be different for animesh, we can't conclude the actual is bad, but we have a clue.

I tried the tool, for now, that doesn't works on a lot of mesh objects.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

It is better to speak about easy to understand example, neutral examples. And to test if the tool is reliable, then to discuss how that helps users.

As I read the mesh Li formulae was maybe not so good, so no matter how you like it or not, it is too late. Visibly the formulae will be different for animesh, we can't conclude the actual is bad, but we have a clue.

I tried the tool, for now, that doesn't works on a lot of mesh objects.

So..you can criticize the LL / SL mesh formulae and tools, but we can’t criticize mesh that is not made using best practices. 

Did I get it right?

[OptimoMaximo]

10 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

I tried the tool, for now, that doesn't works on a lot of mesh objects.

Once again, read the thread in which you're posting: it "doesn't work" if you have a linkset with a prim as root, but cycling through the linkset shows the meshes' stats. 

[CSVirtual]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So..you can criticize the LL / SL mesh formulae and tools, but we can’t criticize mesh that is not made using best practices. 

Did I get it right?

Read again.

My first question about the tool is it works on all mesh even linked with primitive or with sculpty, and if the tool works only on modify objects ?

[Chic Aeon]

As on the other thread that concerned this maker's trees, the point wasn't against the tree, the same model of the tree COULD have been uploaded so that it would have good LODs (or at least way better).  The download cost in the example shown is 1.1. physics .7 and server 2.3. The download parameters could weigh in at up to 2.5 and still keep the same land impact. There are plenty of GOOD TREES out there. I have and use some.  

I could easily show an example of a decor item that falls apart at three meters because the downloads were set to "zero out" all but the highest setting.  They are all over the place. It is not a TREE versus DECOR issue at all, it is HOW people have uploaded. 

 

[OptimoMaximo]

1 minute ago, CSVirtual said:

My first question about the tool is it works on all mesh even linked with primitive or with sculpty, and if the tool works only on modify objects

What i read is you looking for a way out to be able to hide the stats   

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said:

It is not a TREE versus DECOR issue at all, it is HOW people have uploaded. 

Thank you for education.

[CSVirtual]

6 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

As on the other thread that concerned this maker's trees, the point wasn't against the tree, the same model of the tree COULD have been uploaded so that it would have good LODs (or at least way better).  The download cost in the example shown is 1.1. physics .7 and server 2.3. The download parameters could weigh in at up to 2.5 and still keep the same land impact. There are plenty of GOOD TREES out there. I have and use some.  

I could easily show an example of a decor item that falls apart at three meters because the downloads were set to "zero out" all but the highest setting.  They are all over the place. It is not a TREE versus DECOR issue at all, it is HOW people have uploaded. 

 

It is true, and it is a choice. And I guess it is because Li formulae, specifically on Second life.

 

[Chic Aeon]

8 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

What i read is you looking for a way out to be able to hide the stats

Happily it seems like hiding is more difficult than I expected. My "cheat" only worked for ME in that I could no longer see the stats, but Beq could see the info as usual. We just need to figure out WHY I can't see the new tree info when I can see the old tree info from the same maker.  :D.  

 

[CSVirtual]

14 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

What i read is you looking for a way out to be able to hide the stats   

This post is trolling  

And to pursuit in the same way, finally scultpy was maybe good enough

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Happily it seems like hiding is more difficult than I expected. My "cheat" only worked for ME in that I could no longer see the stats, but Beq could see the info as usual. We just need to figure out WHY I can't see the new tree info when I can see the old tree info from the same maker.  :D.  

 

Maybe you could see it if you bought a copy?

[Love Zhaoying]

54 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

What is the title : Firestorm 5.0.11 New Mesh Building Tools

What is the purpose to use an example from a designer, when you could create it yourself to illustrate the goal of the new tool ?

Who is the troll, the one who dares to ask, or the people who unfairly took the tree example ? 

What I say is, it was not necessary to take an example from a designer, no matter the good skill or not of this designer. 

 

There is a thing in the forums where people get off-topic for a given thread. However, I believe this is a “Mesh Forum” (hard to see on phone?).

You could attempt to deal with it..if this was YOUR thread that you started, I would give you a slightly different answer.

[OptimoMaximo]

49 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

It is not a TREE versus DECOR issue at all, it is HOW people have uploaded. 

Well said @Chic Aeon

[OptimoMaximo]

32 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

49 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

What i read is you looking for a way out to be able to hide the stats   

This post is trolling  

And to pursuit in the same way, finally scultpy was maybe good enough

No, not at all. I was serious in the meaning, aside from the fact that i was, and still am, laughing at you.

[OptimoMaximo]

49 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

58 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

As on the other thread that concerned this maker's trees, the point wasn't against the tree, the same model of the tree COULD have been uploaded so that it would have good LODs (or at least way better).  The download cost in the example shown is 1.1. physics .7 and server 2.3. The download parameters could weigh in at up to 2.5 and still keep the same land impact. There are plenty of GOOD TREES out there. I have and use some.  

I could easily show an example of a decor item that falls apart at three meters because the downloads were set to "zero out" all but the highest setting.  They are all over the place. It is not a TREE versus DECOR issue at all, it is HOW people have uploaded. 

 

It is true, and it is a choice. And I guess it is because Li formulae, specifically on Second life.

 

It's the choice of laziness and incompetence, nothing else.

[MoiraKathleen]

I don't usually post in the threads in this section of the forum, because I am not a creator - though I do read them, as I find them interesting and I do try to understand the how and why of content creation.  Three were some comments earlier in this thread about "what the consumer wants", so I thought I'd give my perspective on that as a "somewhat educated" consumer.   When I was new in SL, I often bought products with the NC's about setting the LOD value in the debug settings to 4.0 (or higher), and I used to do that.  Over time I began seeing posts in the forums regarding how that was more of a "work around" to compensate for how it was being created and that it was not necessarily the "only" way to address the LOD issue (that it wasn't something the creators had NO control over).  So I started reducing my LOD values and found that there were items that were made in such a way that I didn't need to use the high LOD settings and those items were often still low or reasonable LI.  I've since lowered my default LOD setting a little further (2.5) and I've begun replacing items that "fall apart" too soon with other creator's items that have stronger LOD's (and often the same LI +/- 1 or 2).   

If I have to choose, I would prefer stronger LOD's than the absolute minimum LI.  I would choose a house where the exterior walls are solid when looking at it from my neighbor's parcel, even if I can't rez mesh items on the floor (which I also understand is something that creators CAN address in how they create the house).   As I've accumulated things over time, I'm at a point now where I don't HAVE to buy things, so I'm more interested in the overall quality of items I buy now.   

I like threads that show examples, because it's easier for me to understand the overall concept.   Because I'm not a creator, I don't always understand what the various values mean (in terms what is a good value or what is not) when examining something with the edit tool, so the examples I see here help me to begin to correlate values with how something will appear or will hold up, and hopefully will help me to be an even better-educated consumer. 

When I find that there are steps creators can take - or not take - when building and uploading, and I get a NC with the product explaining that some issue is "just the way it is" or suggest changing debug level settings to "see" the product as intended, because the creator did not take all the steps that they could have, I start to lose respect for that creator.  I also figure that if I can read here and learn about avatar complexity, LOD values, alpha blending vs. alpha masking (and how to change an item from one to the other to avoid conflicts), that creators can also.  I really appreciate all the creators and scripters that participate here in the forums, not only their patience in answering questions that others have, but also in helping educate others in how to best use the tools to the best advantage and in helping to formulate best practices for dealing with the "quirks (the good and the bad)" of SL content creation.

Edited March 6, 2018 by moirakathleen
spelling correction

[Chic Aeon]

12 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

Three were some comments earlier in this thread about "what the consumer wants", so I thought I'd give my perspective on that as a "somewhat educated" consumer.

That was all great to hear and the original intent of this post and my blog post WAS to alert consumers that they have more ways of seeing how objects will react.  We did get off topic early (happens so often as we seem to be an eclectic and chatty bunch) simply because it appeared that there was a 'workaround' that would stop people from seeing the info. That now appears to be a random case -- maybe a conflict in some preference settings? I know not. 

I once had a house designer tell me personally that I needed to turn my LODs up to 20 since many of the photos in my post on his build (furnished house) didn't show all the objects. HMMMMMMM.  I told him that wouldn't be happening since the most folks had their LODs at 4 (which turns out was likely NOT true, just the folks that "I" knew at the time and me).  He is gone now happily. 

 

I had already hopped on the long LOD 2 and under bandwagon before these new tools came out, but even so they have certainly helped me a lot -- both in building and seeing what others are doing. I know who my own "stars" are these days and they are not necessarily any of the big name folks ^^. 

So thanks for your comments; they added well to this thread and MAYBE got us back on track

Now I BETTER get some work done as the day is speeding by. 

 

[arton Rotaru]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 

 

[Aquila Kytori]

Lovely to be reminded  of Bob Ross again

               Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! .... "I never use terpentime when washing brushes" ... Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! Slap! ....  

                  a genuine ROLF ROFL moment.  

                       Thanks arton   

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Aquila Kytori

[Rya Nitely]

9 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Using a dedicated material on a few hidden and detached triangles inside the High Lod, and expanding those for the impostor LoD, with as many hidden triangles carrying the high LoD materials.

Hidden triangles work very well, but I hesitate to use them. If customers want to change the texture on an item (which will happen with full perm items that I sell) then you need to explain to them about that hidden triangle(s) and why the item is now looking weird from a distance because they didn't apply the new texture to the hidden triangle(s). And many people don't understand the explanation. They are not as savvy as we are.

The way I handle low and lowest is to almost entirely rebuild the model, and for the lowest LOD this is often very time consuming making a fake decent representation and uploading and testing and fixing can take a whole day just on the lowest. And customers want low LI and high LOD and low price. I try to meet this demand, but it isn't easy.

I must say that most of my earlier work was done without the experience I have now, and I am going back and fixing the lods, but customers have been buying those 'bad quality' items without complaint and rating them highly, and so I don't know. I'm going back to fix those LODs slowly over time, not because many people have complained but because I want to, and if something can be improved then it should be.

And so who really is demanding this - creators or consumers is my question?

[Callum Meriman]

And yet, these trees and flowers are poorly made, and I have trashed hundreds of USD recently of plants because they are absolutely useless in a garden. Things like nasturtiums and foxgloves from one creator, and olive trees and willows from another, moving plants from a third - because their mesh is being exploited to be just the highest LOD, with all three others zeroed out. And that means invisible, or a single triangle at a distance. Erk.

And worse, the darned things popping into view at 10 meters. That is the worst.

As a person who normally buys *a lot* of plants I want trees that will hold up to 128 meters or more, and I want flowers that can hold up to 40 meters. I also want them to gracefully decompose over distance - imposters at 128 meters on a tree is ideal in my book.

It's very depressing to see the plant displays at Fameshed, trees and plants that would look very nice in my gardens if they didn't use LOD cheating exploits to lower the LOD, rather than spending the time to make 3 or 4 of the LOD models as a minimum.

 

12 hours ago, ChinRey said:

 

 

That's exactly what I want. Coming to look at your works tonight Chinrey!

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[MIstahMoose]

So on this topic is seems homes and trees seem to be very important for the LOD to be correct, but what other context is it important for LOD to be correct. Props etc?
What are your opinions on clothing creators using those tricks? Since for lower end users, SL auto imposters avatars at a certain range.

I do think this is a great thread for constructive criticism, and I personally think LODs on large structures are great, I..won't lie that I neglect them a bit on smaller objects

I personally still believe the texture sizes are bigger issues than LOD.. Most modern GPUs can handle insane amount of polys on screen, but its the 20 textures on a small bottle that will lag you to hell.. Not to go off topic, just considering lag/efficiency.

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, MIstahMoose said:

So on this topic is seems homes and trees seem to be very important for the LOD to be correct, but what other context is it important for LOD to be correct. Props etc?

What are your opinions on clothing creators using those tricks? Since for lower end users, SL auto imposters avatars at a certain range.

I do think this is a great thread for constructive criticism, and I personally think LODs on large structures are great, I..won't lie that I neglect them a bit on smaller objects

I personally still believe the texture sizes are bigger issues than LOD.. Most modern GPUs can handle insane amount of polys on screen, but its the 20 textures on a small bottle that will lag you to hell.. Not to go off topic, just considering lag/efficiency.

Odd but I can't write within your quote so will wing it.

For ME everything is important. Little decor items that are absolutely lovely if you are standing RIGHT ON TOP OF THEM that break apart at two or three meters (yes really) at LOD2 (worse at LOD 1.25 the Linden default) drive me insane. I have a couple of creators (I blog)  that are definitely top notch on the CREATE part of the equation but cheat tremendously on the LODs (very sad) . So I don't feature them any more on my blog. I could write and tell them why of course, but really it is there choice and they know what they are doing. They seem to have a good bunch of LOD 4 fans so that works for them. 

Personally I don't care too much about the clothing part of the equation as I have imposters turned up WAY high and mostly see jellydolls. I DO however note if items like jewelry or hair (or nipple covers OMG) disappear at short range; I toss the offenders. 

I don't know enough technically to comment with any reliability on texture load versus mesh load. I think they are both important definitely. 

 

and to @Rya Nitely  and the question on who is demanding this.    I don't think anyone can "demand"; it will always be up to each creator. I know that I always check the avatar complexity cost of hairs now (mostly for alts as I have plenty of good hair) and older jewelry items which seem to be the biggest offenders.  So the more consumers pay attention and NOT buy LOD 4 (or highly textured) items, the more likely it will be that creators will make changes when needed. Some really don't know. Others know very well (obvious by the way they upload) and just do it anyway. 

Recently a long time hair maker put all their hairs on sale (a few will remain) and is starting over. They had some VERY heavy hair but the newer ones are just fine. So SOME folks are learning and paying attention. The more this gets into the public realm, the more that will happen. At least that is my point of view. 

 

 

 

[MIstahMoose]

Counter argument (Sorry I love playing devils advocate) for as far as creators ignoring the optimization side, a lot of those larger creators do this as their sole income and optimization is largely unnoticed by the mass population of SL users. Having to create so much in a month for an event is pretty hard, and if you miss and event or two people start to forget your name. Time or necessity for optimization just isnt there imo, for most things at least. (I will say those creators who just do recolors should have time to optimize there stuff smh *throws shade* )

I think this problem really is largely on Linden Labs shoulders, Take a look at engines like Unreal Engine 4. That shiet optimizes for you, and does it so dang well I can scale my 4k models to MOBILE instantly, with good quality! Yes creators can be blamed, but we are still not given the tools we need to create quality content. A lot of the work arounds are dirty and they really shouldn't have to be. Spending so much time just to get an upload to work is frustrating beyond belief, and having to optimize on top of that? bleh.