Firestorm 5.0.11 New Mesh Building Tools

[OptimoMaximo]

57 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

And I prefer a tree visible at 40m, than fake trees like 8 panels billboard, isn't it Chinrey ?

Perhaps, taking the time to get informed on the best practices in old school game assets creation, you might have stumbled upon what is called impostor, which is good for the LOW and LOWEST LoDs. Isn't a 8 plane tree better looking than a floating triangle when you move farther than the Medium LoD?

[CSVirtual]

19 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Perhaps, taking the time to get informed on the best practices in old school game assets creation, you might have stumbled upon what is called impostor, which is good for the LOW and LOWEST LoDs. Isn't a 8 plane tree better looking than a floating triangle when you move farther than the Medium LoD?

And that can't work, because all lod level objects must have the same textures number, for example. And complex objects often use many parts.

So, the impostor will go where ? and how ?

 

 

[OptimoMaximo]

Using a dedicated material on a few hidden and detached triangles inside the High Lod, and expanding those for the impostor LoD, with as many hidden triangles carrying the high LoD materials.

It is all explained in another thread, as i said if you took the time to get informed, you would have found the information earlier, instead of having to come here defending your practices.

 

Edit: This thread here

This info is available on the forum from when Drongle was publishing his experiemnts, it's not a new thing

Edited March 6, 2018 by OptimoMaximo
added thread link

[ChinRey]

Aww, I've never been attacked by a furious sock puppet before. That's actually cute!

No seriously, it is!

Anyways...

1 hour ago, CSVirtual said:

Additionally, there is how Li is calculated. Is it a good way, how Li is calculated? Maybe yes, maybe no.  But, for sure, LOD and low Li are not working in the same direction.

The problem I see with the LoD factor setting is that it's a way of overriding the land impact calculation. We have very few and inadeqaute tools for controlling the server, bandwidth and client load in Second Life. We need them all and more and we can't really afford to disable one of them in the long run.

 

1 hour ago, CSVirtual said:

And I prefer a tree visible at 40m, than fake trees like 8 panels billboard, isn't it Chinrey ?

As simple as possible for background and minor accentuations, a bit more elaborate for middle ground and "palyground" (that is rp and high speed action scenes), even more detailed for upfront trees, and maybe a few really elaborate fature trees in strategically places in quiet spots where lag isn't too critical.

That's the way to do it. You can't really compare simple low poly background trees to detailed high poly features ones, that wouldn't be fair to either of them. I also agree that it isn't fair to compare it to completely different objects but I don't think that was Chic's intention althoguh she will ahev to answer that of course.

But that tree is still horrendously poorly made in every single way and by any standard. It's not a style I immediately recognise so I have no idea who made it but whoever it was clearly does not understand how mesh works in Second Life or any other dynamic virtual environment.

 

1 hour ago, CSVirtual said:

What users want : low Li, low price and now even good LOD. That not works.

Why not? Looking at that tree, I'm not sure if it could have been done at 2 LI with proper LoD but it might and it certainly could have been done at 3 LI. And as for price, if we ignore the game asset rippers (I'm sure none of us want to be associated with them) I don't have the impression the LoD butchers sell particularly cheap. To me it seems their prices actually end to be a bit higher than their quality comeptitors.

Edited March 6, 2018 by ChinRey

[CSVirtual]

That doesn't works on a multi part objects, and that increases the Li

 

[CSVirtual]

3 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Aww, I've never been attacked by a furious sock puppet before. That's actually cute!

No seriously, it is!

Anyways...

The problem I see with the LoD factor setting is that it's a way of overriding the land impact calculation. We have very few and inadeqaute tools for controlling the server, bandwidth and client load in Second Life. We need them all and more and we can't really afford to disable one of them in the long run.

 

As simple as possible for background and minor accentuations, a bit more elaborate for middle ground and "palyground" (that is rp and high speed action scenes), even more detailed for upfront trees, and maybe a few really elaborate fature trees in strategically places in quiet spots where lag isn't too critical.

That's the way to do it. You can't really compare simple low poly background trees to detailed high poly features ones, that wouldn't be fair to either of them. I also agree that it isn't fair to compare it to completely different objects but I don't think that was Chic's intention althoguh she will ahev to answer that of course.

But that tree is still horrendously poorly made in every single way and by any standard. It's not a style I immediately recognise so I have no idea who made it but whoever it was clearly does not understand how mesh works in Second Life or any other dynamic virtual environment.

 

Why not? Looking at that tree, I'm not sure if it could have been done at 2 LI with proper LoD but it might and it certainly could have been done at 3 LI. And as for price, if we ignore the game asset rippers (I'm sure none of us want to be associated with them) I don't have the impression the LoD butchers sell particularly cheap. To me it seems their prices actually end to be a bit higher than their quality comeptitors.

It is ridiculous to put Lod, mainly on Second life, knowing the constraints, as main quality for an object. 

There are a lot of criteria.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

It is ridiculous to put Lod, mainly on Second life, knowing the constraints, as main quality for an object. 

There are a lot of criteria.

“I may not be a smart man, but I know what Love is.” - Forrest Gump

[ChinRey]

3 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

It is ridiculous to put Lod, mainly on Second life, knowing the constraints, as main quality for an object. 

There are a lot of criteria.

Of course. But LoD is still an important one and it is actually quite easy to get right.

I understand you are not a mesh maker yourself so it wouldn't be fair to expect you to know all the tricks and techniques but consider this: there are many builders in Second Life who have proven over and over again that they are able to make meshes with low land impact, low lag and good LoD. So it's not impossible. It's not even very difficult but you have to do your homework and learn the craft.

[OptimoMaximo]

8 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

It is ridiculous to put Lod, mainly on Second life,

LoDs are being constantly put in all 3D games, and the more power the graphics engine consumes/the lower profile the target hardware, the stricter LoDs policies are. What is seriously ridiculous is the lack of proper LoDs enforcement. Sure thing all the uploader related stuff mentioned earlier need a overhaul, still it's not sufficient to just ignore LoDs.

[CSVirtual]

I do not proclaim myself a 3D object maker for my auto satisfaction or advertisement. But, I know how create dae files, generate LOD efficiently and with many software.

I know what is possible or not on Second life. On Second life we need make choices, and for now, some builders took the choice to optimize Li and they are making awesome designs. That doesn't means they don't know how handle Lod, that means they made a choice to offer best design at reasonable Li. They put all their efforts on high lod only, not because they don't know, but to please how Li are calculated and customers.

I need to add, the fact to align cubes, with mesh or not, under Blender or on Second life directly doesn't make someone a mesh makers.

 

[CSVirtual]

19 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

LoDs are being constantly put in all 3D games, and the more power the graphics engine consumes/the lower profile the target hardware, the stricter LoDs policies are. What is seriously ridiculous is the lack of proper LoDs enforcement. Sure thing all the uploader related stuff mentioned earlier need a overhaul, still it's not sufficient to just ignore LoDs.

I don't think 3D games ask you to pay land and prims on it. Do they ? I don't remember I purchased a land for Skyrim and I don't remember they count prims. I don't remember size has any influence on Li on Skyrim, too. Of course, there is no Li concept on 3Dgame, only polygons and textures resolution.

Always matter of context. Second life can't be compared directly to a classical 3Dgame.

On Sansar, there is Li ? Lod ? , not for now. Linden Lab has in mind to add Lod on Sansar. Actually, there is not. And that works finely as I already tested. Lod will improve maybe the FPS, but the time Sansar is growing up I am not sure it will be necessary to add Lod system. The computer will progress to handle VR better and better and the technology for automatic fade level of detail will be more generalized.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by CSVirtual

[OptimoMaximo]

1 minute ago, CSVirtual said:

Always matter of context. Second life can't be compared directly to a classical 3Dgame.

Indeed, classic 3D games have way more resource tools to optimize or obviate to some issues, that SL doesn't have. Put that on an online stream in realtime, versus a single player game that stands alone. If you want to keep the platform usable, those few available tools need to be used, period. There is no design choice, it is either pure ignorance about the matter or laziness in making a model game-almost-ready. Being a multi part object doesn't really matter, it is again laziness in not exporting each part and re-assemble it inworld. Everything can not be 1 LI as the customers demand. And that is the reason for LL to increase prim allowances on simulators in the first place. Seeing stuff popping into existence SUCKS, no design choices, period.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, CSVirtual said:

I know what is possible or not on Second life. On Second life we need make choices, and for now, some builders took the choice to optimize Li and they are making awesome designs. That doesn't means they don't know how handle Lod, that means they made a choice to offer best design at reasonable Li. They put all their efforts on high lod only, not because they don't know, but to please how Li are calculated and customers.

But there are plenty of builders who prove you wrong with every single mesh they make. They consistently produce mesh with low lag, low land impact and good LoD. If you know what is possible in Second Life, why can't you do that?

 

1 hour ago, CSVirtual said:

I need to add, the fact to align cubes, with mesh or not, under Blender or on Second life directly doesn't make someone a mesh makers.

And I need to add, the fact that insults from somebody who are so cowardly they have to hide behind a Sock Puppet alt on the forums are very easy to ignore.

But you are of course right. Aligning a few cubes doesn't make anybody a mesh maker.

This does though:

Right before the draw distance cutoff (Firestorm, default medium graphics):

 

You know, you're giving me a perfectly legitimate excuse to shamelessly promote my own works on the forums!

Keep it coming, please!

With enemies like that, who needs friends?

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by ChinRey

[CSVirtual]

Your tree uses sculpty.

It is exactly what I said. You use the forum to promote yourself by writing criticism on others.

Where is the laziness, on nice design trying to handle how Li is managed by Second life, or make billboard trees using just free textures ?

Edited March 6, 2018 by CSVirtual

[Love Zhaoying]

[ChinRey]

Just now, CSVirtual said:

Your tree uses sculpty !

No

 

1 minute ago, CSVirtual said:

It is exactly what I said. You use the forum to promote yourself by writing criticism on others.

When did you say that?

You're wrong anyway. Joke aside, if you want to promote your business in SL, the last thing you want to do is spend a lot of time on the forums.

[Love Zhaoying]

I don’t see anyone being “criticized” - before you joined the discussion @CSVirtual. This thread was mostly about “best practices”. If you see that as criticism then..

[CSVirtual]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

But that tree is still horrendously poorly made in every single way and by any standard. It's not a style I immediately recognise so I have no idea who made it but whoever it was clearly does not understand how mesh works in Second Life or any other dynamic virtual environment.

You said Love Zhaoying ?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, CSVirtual said:

You said Love Zhaoying ?

Criticism is not always intended to hurt. It can be made to educate. (Guess I missed that post.)

[ChinRey]

2 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

You said Love Zhaoying ?

 

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I don’t see anyone being “criticized” - before you joined the discussion @CSVirtual.

That quote is from a post after you joined.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, ChinRey said:

 

That quote is from a post after you joined.

I love being right, it gives me a warm feeling inside.

[CSVirtual]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Criticism is not always intended to hurt. It can be made to educate. (Guess I missed that post.)

I find this offensive. And certainly not a way to bring peoples on your side. And " horrendously poorly made " is an offensive way to speak. Mainly coming from a designer who has not showing the skill to write fairly criticism to the tree mentioned on example. If you are customer of this tree you can contact the designer, but on this forum I find this way very offensive. 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by CSVirtual

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

I find this offensive. And certainly not a way to bring peoples on your side. And " horrendously poorly made " is an offensive way to speak.

 

People aren’t allowed to express opinions?

Edited March 6, 2018 by Love Zhaoying

[ChinRey]

51 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

And " horrendously poorly made " is an offensive way to speak.

It is indeed, and as I'm sure you know, I've said a lot worse in other threads and I will keep doing so.

But, there are three very important - to me at least - factors:

• I will never hide behind some assumed identity. I am the same person everywhere in Second Life (although not in Real Life of course).
• I will always explain why I think it's a poor build - unless it has already been explained in detail by others such as it was in this case. I don't do underhanded snide remarks.
• And of course: I try my best not to reveal the name of the maker. Sometimes that's pointless or impossible because the build or location is too easily recognisable but I do try my best.

Edited March 6, 2018 by ChinRey

[Anna Nova]

3 hours ago, CSVirtual said:

I find this offensive. And certainly not a way to bring peoples on your side. And " horrendously poorly made " is an offensive way to speak. Mainly coming from a designer who has not showing the skill to write fairly criticism to the tree mentioned on example. If you are customer of this tree you can contact the designer, but on this forum I find this way very offensive. 

 

You are today's 9 Post Noobie, and I claim my $5.

These forums are inundated with 'This is my first post on this forum but I've been in SL for 600 years'  posts.  Often they also include 'and I know everything there is to know about <insert topic of choice>'.  And usually 'and you are all doing it wrong!"

We just laugh.  The maxim 'Don't feed the troll!' comes to mind.  But there, I did.

Edited March 6, 2018 by anna2358
typo.