Firestorm 5.0.11 New Mesh Building Tools

[arton Rotaru]

11 hours ago, MIstahMoose said:

I think this problem really is largely on Linden Labs shoulders, Take a look at engines like Unreal Engine 4. That shiet optimizes for you, and does it so dang well I can scale my 4k models to MOBILE instantly, with good quality! Yes creators can be blamed, but we are still not given the tools we need to create quality content. A lot of the work arounds are dirty and they really shouldn't have to be. Spending so much time just to get an upload to work is frustrating beyond belief, and having to optimize on top of that? bleh. 

I honestly hope there is nobody who is forcing you to create content for Second Life!

[Rya Nitely]

2 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

19 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

Hidden triangles work very well, but I hesitate to use them. If customers want to change the texture on an item (which will happen with full perm items that I sell) then you need to explain to them about that hidden triangle(s)

It's what a developer does, Rya: document the work they intend to sell or give away to others to include in their projects. When you purchase a full perms script, the least you expect is that it contains fully commented code, so that you know what is done and where to modify it, don't you? It's how development material has always been. And you can certainly add a few lines to a notecard explaining why and how to do so. Perhaps this might be one of the reasons for some creators to keep their stuff no mod.

Adding a few lines to explain how to find the hidden triangle(s) and change the dummy texture to represent your newly textured model is the easy part, and I have done this in the few cases where I did use this method to keep LI low. But I really don't want to make it too complicated for my customers. I think I have a fair idea of what most of them are capable of,  and having to teach individuals who become very confused, and I would end up offering to do it for them, and I may even risk low ratings because of it. Too many people change textures on full  perm items, and it's a teaching process that I don't want to take on.

It would justify no mod on items to an extent. But here a notecard would help by just saying don't change the texture. Even with copy mod I don't like having to set such restrictions.

[Rolig Loon]

35 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

I think I have a fair idea of what most of them are capable of,  and having to teach individuals who become very confused, and I would end up offering to do it for them, and I may even risk low ratings because of it.

I agree with this general sentiment.  Creators/merchants have to maintain a delicate balance in making products that are easy to modify, whether we are talking about mesh or some other type of creation. There are certainly plenty of SL residents who are savvy enough to follow directions, but the few who cannot are usually the most vocal ones, and they take up an incredible amount of time with calls for help.  Writing detailed, step-by-step explanations isn't the answer, because those same people either can't or won't read the instructions -- especially if they are at all long or complicated. Notecards are an answer to ignorance, not stupidity, clumsiness, or impatience.  Unfortunately, the alternative is to restrict the amount of modifying that you allow people to do.  That annoys the large number of people who are savvy enough to follow directions. 

As a scripter, I can tell you that almost every script I write is loaded with failsafes that try to anticipate ways that a user might take a wrong turn.  Those failsafes can double or triple the length of a script.  They attempt to either prevent those wrong turns or make the right turns as obvious as possible. I usually include a carefully-worded notecard as well, and then I cross my fingers and hope that I get very few service calls from either end of the user spectrum.

[OptimoMaximo]

53 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

Adding a few lines to explain how to find the hidden triangle(s) and change the dummy texture to represent your newly textured model is the easy part, and I have done this in the few cases where I did use this method to keep LI low. But I really don't want to make it too complicated for my customers. I think I have a fair idea of what most of them are capable of,  and having to teach individuals who become very confused, and I would end up offering to do it for them, and I may even risk low ratings because of it. Too many people change textures on full  perm items, and it's a teaching process that I don't want to take on.

It would justify no mod on items to an extent. But here a notecard would help by just saying don't change the texture. Even with copy mod I don't like having to set such restrictions.

You talk about restriction, while i am talking about features. Few lines on a notecard can also contain a link to a short video where you show the method as step by step, now it's even easier to show the LoDs at any distance. Sure it requires Firestorm. Another restriction. Assuming that people can't be educated to work on better content that, in turn, makes their creations better just because of the risk of low ratings is exactly the same attitude of people like the tree creator in disguise' "choice" of totally neglecting LoDs. Because, in the end, you make full permission assets that are intended for the SL's version of Level Designers, basically someone who should technically be "in the works" and, perhaps, are craving to show off the best looking/best performing sim they can. But this is my opinion only.

[MIstahMoose]

4 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Can i ask what is a 4K models? 4 K texture? However, aside from that, the UE4 LoD making editor does a pretty good job in almost all cases but it still suffers from a decimation type of approach. Smarter and better than SL's own LoD generator, still they recommend complex objects are better off having their custom LoDs.

I don't remember any one failed upload to SL i attempted that wasn't my fault, forgetting to do something prior the export; if you understand the concept of "clean mesh" in terms of inputs and geometry it's not hard to figure out what doesn't work. It's not a matter of optimizing on top the troubleshooting of the misbehaving mesh which doesn't want to upload, it's more a matter of working optimized from start to end. Because it's easier to add geometry at later time, rather than remove it. And if the process implies the use of a high definition object, it's for maps extraction to fake those details on a low(er) polygon version of the same item. So yes, you build the same object twice in order to make it good, both looking AND technically.

Yeah textures, I wrote this at 4am forgive me
And I remember quite a freaking few uploads that don't work that weren't on me. Especially since this is a post on firestorm, half the time I upload on firestorm I get a mav_block error, but it works fine on the main viewer. Thank goodness I found that out so I could stop tearing my hair out >.> 
To point out on firestorm, Sometimes clearing the mavblock error is a simple as renaming the export, other times its impossible to fix for whatever reason.

I feel like im not entirely convinced that starting low is always the right way to model things. I do agree clean mesh is very important, but sometimes its just easier to start high and retopo later. I think thats more of a "It depends" situation
I would also like to repeat again, Maps are great and all if they were even close to viable in SL content creation. I do add maps to my creations just in the hopes that they get seen or are used in photography, but the average user isnt going to see them

[MIstahMoose]

4 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

I honestly hope there is nobody who is forcing you to create content for Second Life!

I like creating content in a lot of different games like VRchat etc, but I just am expecting more from LL because they've been around so long. They just have neglected it and milked their users rather than really working to improve the environment we work in. I get that writing an engine from scratch is hard, and implementing different demands into that engine is extremely hard.. but things like bones that are already implemented could vastly and rapidly be improved if they just hired a specialist. Maybe their code has no comments on it and is a crazy confusing mess, but I just expect more.

[OptimoMaximo]

2 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

I feel like im not entirely convinced that starting low is always the right way to model things. I do agree clean mesh is very important, but sometimes its just easier to start high and retopo later. I think thats more of a "It depends" situation

Please, re-read my post. I was referencing also the retopo situation when i was mentioning map extraction. But even in this case, retopo is not the process of reducing the same model's density, it rather is the process of creating a lower polygon version of it, as a standalone item, where the high poly version is being trashed at the end of the process. So again, you still don't start high as, also in sculpting, you begin with an object that definitely is lower polygon cont, compared to the end result, and you then add detail and resolution as you go.

[MIstahMoose]

Just now, OptimoMaximo said:

Please, re-read my post. I was referencing also the retopo situation when i was mentioning map extraction. But even in this case, retopo is not the process of reducing the same model's density, it rather is the process of creating a lower polygon version of it, as a standalone item, where the high poly version is being trashed at the end of the process. So again, you still don't start high as, also in sculpting, you begin with an object that definitely is lower polygon cont, compared to the end result, and you then add detail and resolution as you go.

Sorry was a little confusing towards the end (Havent slept in a few days)

Sometimes you do just duplicate the model and reduce ^.^ But yes more common to just use remodel or use topogun and go over the model

And @ sculpting reference... depends how you sculpt ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
IE Scott Eaton

i'll stop grinding everyones gears now, but its interesting to see how everyone thinks and approached this topic. 

[OptimoMaximo]

2 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

Sometimes you do just duplicate the model and reduce ^.^ But yes more common to just use remodel or use topogun and go over the model

Sure thing you can, but it's not always going to work well. You're rebuilding an item in a usable state, and a polygon reduction function doesn't always treat the mesh well because of the retention feature constraints, forcing a little clean up work (if you want it optimized) and some shapes adjustments. Even in this case, it's just best to duplicate the high poly version and work on the duplicate for reduction, so that the highpoly surface stays as reference surface for a quick snap-everything-better-to-surface retopo session.

 

10 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

And @ sculpting reference... depends how you sculpt ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
IE Scott Eaton

The exception confirms the general rule. HE is the exception. The general rule, as explained in all manual, schools and course, still is the same. When you master a craftsmanship of any sort, then rules don't matter anymore. But you gotta get to master craftsman level before you can afford that.

[MIstahMoose]

27 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Sure thing you can, but it's not always going to work well. You're rebuilding an item in a usable state, and a polygon reduction function doesn't always treat the mesh well because of the retention feature constraints, forcing a little clean up work (if you want it optimized) and some shapes adjustments. Even in this case, it's just best to duplicate the high poly version and work on the duplicate for reduction, so that the highpoly surface stays as reference surface for a quick snap-everything-better-to-surface retopo session.

 

The exception confirms the general rule. HE is the exception. The general rule, as explained in all manual, schools and course, still is the same. When you master a craftsmanship of any sort, then rules don't matter anymore. But you gotta get to master craftsman level before you can afford that.

"Sometimes you do just duplicate the model and reduce" Wasn't referring to automated decimation, because you're right that wouldn't give a workable model.

Secondly, No he is not the exception. I think you refer to everything with too much definitive. There is a lot of ways to do things, especially when it comes to sculpture. Even if it is inside Zbrush. Is it recommended for new digital artist to start low and subdiv into high? Yes. But once you're not a complete beginner anymore, there is a lot of avenues open to you with how you approach your model.

Do you just assume everyone doesn't know what they're talking about ? Cuz thats kind of how I feel about holding a discussion with you.. I mean you even explained retopo man.. come on This whole thread is about that, if I didn't know it by now..  Not flaming just.. Man give some people credit

Anyway man, Take care, was fun

[OptimoMaximo]

9 hours ago, MIstahMoose said:

Secondly, No he is not the exception. I think you refer to everything with too much definitive. There is a lot of ways to do things, especially when it comes to sculpture. Even if it is inside Zbrush. Is it recommended for new digital artist to start low and subdiv into high? Yes. But once you're not a complete beginner anymore, there is a lot of avenues open to you with how you approach your model.

He is, along with the other Masters of ZBrush, the exception, yes. I may be referring to everything too much in absolute terms as much as you refer to the same things with a too loose mentality, whereas you complain about issues in uploading models and i dont have mine ever being rejected by any of the game engines i work on, SL included. Again, when sculpting and you reached a good level of mastership over the software, you're free to move in the field as you like, exactly as i said earlier. It's the whole point of sculpting programs, that kinda freedom.However that isn' a mesh that can be digested by a realtime renderer. Retopology on it starts low poly to slowly increase detail where needed. Remeshers aren't the same as retopology. Might work, but it's not the same.

 

9 hours ago, MIstahMoose said:

Do you just assume everyone doesn't know what they're talking about ? Cuz thats kind of how I feel about holding a discussion with you.. I mean you even explained retopo man.. come on This whole thread is about that, if I didn't know it by now..

No, i just assume that there may be some readers that may need the detailed info, and so i linearly go through the topic, period. The issue lays within your approach, where you say "if i didn't know about it now" when a few posts ago you say you have trouble making the model being accepted by the uploader in the first place, figure if one should optimize the mesh after that. Not a literal quotation, of course, but that's what you said. I would give more credit if you didn't efficiently show a lack of efficiency methodology in what you do. Think about it, you're basically saying "oh various methods are good, also mine, but i get a heck of a time to get the uploader to accept my meshes..." and it doesn't ring a bell in your mind about that, perhaps, the good old rules were set in place for a reason?

[MIstahMoose]

18 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

He is, along with the other Masters of ZBrush, the exception, yes. I may be referring to everything too much in absolute terms as much as you refer to the same things with a too loose mentality, whereas you complain about issues in uploading models and i dont have mine ever being rejected by any of the game engines i work on, SL included. Again, when sculpting and you reached a good level of mastership over the software, you're free to move in the field as you like, exactly as i said earlier. It's the whole point of sculpting programs, that kinda freedom.However that isn' a mesh that can be digested by a realtime renderer. Retopology on it starts low poly to slowly increase detail where needed. Remeshers aren't the same as retopology. Might work, but it's not the same.

 

No, i just assume that there may be some readers that may need the detailed info, and so i linearly go through the topic, period. The issue lays within your approach, where you say "if i didn't know about it now" when a few posts ago you say you have trouble making the model being accepted by the uploader in the first place, figure if one should optimize the mesh after that. Not a literal quotation, of course, but that's what you said. I would give more credit if you didn't efficiently show a lack of efficiency methodology in what you do. Think about it, you're basically saying "oh various methods are good, also mine, but i get a heck of a time to get the uploader to accept my meshes..." and it doesn't ring a bell in your mind about that, perhaps, the good old rules were set in place for a reason?

Bruh, try uploading a 38k poly avatar on firestorm and not get mav block error. You act like ever scenario is the same. Your models != my models, You assume im doing something wrong immediately. Didnt admit not understanding, prrtty sure i said something like high poly mesh has issues on FS.

C'mon bruh. You never even inquired about anything i said just was like "ur wrong lel"

Not trying to troll or make you hate me but def could benefit from asking questions to understand before assumptions and stating definitives. Maybe a bit on those condescending statements too

 

And ill remember playing devils advocate on SL forums doesnt bring out actual discussions

[OptimoMaximo]

Bruh, try uploading a 38k poly avatar on firestorm and not get mav block error.

That is the whole point, bruh (as you say): realtime rendering environments are not made for high poly models. Game engines are not made for high poly models either, where the limit threshold of such definition may vary because it depends on many factors. It's not a "depends how you work" or "design choices" type of matter, it's a matter of following what a tech director would set as limit for the development of a specific product and its contents guidelines. The difference sits in SL where there's no enforcement of such guidelines. Your loose approach is somehow a claim that medium-high poly is acceptable in SL. Don't get me wrong, i do organic modeling and rigging, and 30K /40K polygons is an average number for triple A high end games type of characters, fully outfitted with all possible accessories (including the simpler hairstyles), not the naked body alone. They can get even a bit higher; however, they also do in separate assets to fall within what their realtime software is capable to handle, as per the tech director's estimation, both for rendering capabilities and file read speed . Perhaps you should read about the limits of the uploader and find your way to comply to them, instead of the brute-force type of approach "trying to get the uploader to accept my mesh" and saying that LL should help by improving the uploader is just the same type of claim.

[Love Zhaoying]

39 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

That is the whole point, bruh (as you say): realtime rendering environments are not made for high poly models. Game engines are not made for high poly models either, where the limit threshold of such definition may vary because it depends on many factors. It's not a "depends how you work" or "design choices" type of matter, it's a matter of following what a tech director would set as limit for the development of a specific product and its contents guidelines. The difference sits in SL where there's no enforcement of such guidelines. Your loose approach is somehow a claim that medium-high poly is acceptable in SL. Don't get me wrong, i do organic modeling and rigging, and 30K /40K polygons is an average number for triple A high end games type of characters, fully outfitted with all possible accessories (including the simpler hairstyles), not the naked body alone. They can get even a bit higher; however, they also do in separate assets to fall within what their realtime software is capable to handle, as per the tech director's estimation, both for rendering capabilities and file read speed . Perhaps you should read about the limits of the uploader and find your way to comply to them, instead of the brute-force type of approach "trying to get the uploader to accept my mesh" and saying that LL should help by improving the uploader is just the same type of claim.

Bruh!

[OptimoMaximo]

17 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Bruh!

Yeah i forgot that as ending statement! /me facepalms at himself

[OptimoMaximo]

Oh, and a little reminder, in case "but this happens on Firestorm, the official LL viewer allows such uploads" comes out: LL is the one that, at the time, left an exploitable hole for the creation of megaprims. Someone else might write the code more accurately. Just saying

[CSVirtual]

3 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

That is the whole point, bruh (as you say): realtime rendering environments are not made for high poly models. Game engines are not made for high poly models either, where the limit threshold of such definition may vary because it depends on many factors. It's not a "depends how you work" or "design choices" type of matter, it's a matter of following what a tech director would set as limit for the development of a specific product and its contents guidelines. The difference sits in SL where there's no enforcement of such guidelines. Your loose approach is somehow a claim that medium-high poly is acceptable in SL. Don't get me wrong, i do organic modeling and rigging, and 30K /40K polygons is an average number for triple A high end games type of characters, fully outfitted with all possible accessories (including the simpler hairstyles), not the naked body alone. They can get even a bit higher; however, they also do in separate assets to fall within what their realtime software is capable to handle, as per the tech director's estimation, both for rendering capabilities and file read speed . Perhaps you should read about the limits of the uploader and find your way to comply to them, instead of the brute-force type of approach "trying to get the uploader to accept my mesh" and saying that LL should help by improving the uploader is just the same type of claim.

"It's not a "depends how you work" or "design choices" type of matter, it's a matter of following what a tech director would" 

Yes, and on SL, the person who rents the sim is the "tech director". I pay for my sim, and on my sim. I have the right to create what I want . I pay for this and in this case Linden lab is a server and service provider no less no more and if I want a high poly house, I can, I pay for this, or maybe Linden lab will advice me and all other peoples in the same case to rent elsewhere ? 

Edited March 8, 2018 by CSVirtual

[CSVirtual]

I find strange nobody mentions the fact, majority of peoples who rent a sim or a land use real money for this, and so it is perfectly normal to have yet the liberty to create as we wish, under TOS rules,  on the server we rent. And I don't think there is a quality rule about li/lod ratio and so one on TOS which prevents me to reduce li or increase lod on my sim 

And plenty of peoples create only for their own use and not for resale.

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by CSVirtual

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

I find strange nobody mentions the fact, majority of peoples who rent a sim or a land use real money for this, and so it is perfectly normal to have yet the liberty to create as we wish, under TOS rules,  on the server we rent. And I don't think there is a quality rule about li/lod ratio and so one on TOS which prevents me to reduce li or increase lod on my sim 

And plenty of peoples create only for their own use and not for resale.

 

It seems to me that people talk about this all the time on the forums. You only joined last Tuesday (assuming this is your first account). You can’t expect every aspect of every topic to be discussed in each thread.

[CSVirtual]

I am explaining, on a different way, how the new firestorm tool can help me to improve my build, but this tool is just a tool, I will not "submit" to this tool as if this tool was a measure of quality.

It is a help, not a quality measure, and on my sim, the quality measure is my eyes only 

And I dislike the condescending or offensive way to speak just because some peoples think they are right as if they are some "gods" of build, they are not, obviously not  

Edited March 8, 2018 by CSVirtual

[Anna Nova]

1 hour ago, CSVirtual said:

... I pay for my sim, and on my sim. I have the right to create what I want...

No one will stop you doing whatever you like on your sim.  You pay tier, you make the rules.  We reserve the right to say what we like about it though, and also to lobby LL to change the fees for content that cause the rest of us costs, or other annoyances.  I'm glad my parcel isn't next to yours.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, anna2358 said:

No one will stop you doing whatever you like on your sim.  You pay tier, you make the rules.  We reserve the right to say what we like about it though, and also to lobby LL to change the fees for content that cause the rest of us costs, or other annoyances.  I'm glad my parcel isn't next to yours.

We can also choose not to visit his sim if it is extra laggy!

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, CSVirtual said:

I am explaining, on a different way, how the new firestorm tool can help me to improve my build, but this tool is just a tool, I will not "submit" to this tool as if this tool was a measure of quality.

It is a help, not a quality measure, and on my sim, the quality measure is my eyes only 

And I dislike the condescending or offensive way to speak just because some peoples think they are right as if they are some "gods" of build, they are not, obviously not 

Don't let other people's opinions take away your joy of creating!....even if you don't optimize mesh on your sim.

Likewise, best not to fault others who find great value in optimizing mesh. It's just their thing, and they work hard at it.

[OptimoMaximo]

2 hours ago, CSVirtual said:

Yes, and on SL, the person who rents the sim is the "tech director". I pay for my sim, and on my sim. I have the right to create what I want

Wrong, a tech director is a programmer that tells you what can go in and what not. You, as sim owner, at most can be an Art Director/Level Designer, who has to subdue to the tech specs, penalty given: asset refused. Not that the Art Director is given a choice, this guy gets tech-approved assets to work with and has to whip out a composed environment asset that falls within the TD's limit for this type of asset, even if the contained stuff is approved content to begin with.

 

1 hour ago, CSVirtual said:

It is a help, not a quality measure, and on my sim, the quality measure is my eyes only 

Quality comes when and IF you can see the items on your sim in the first place. 

This tool definitely will be a help for those people who seek quality content in the broader spectrum of features. Also, the assumption that this practice of yours is as good as any other is really presumptuous and shows a really crude ignorance about the matter at hand.

Edit: and yes, i really hope more and more people would understand this tool as a quality check, so to drive all LoD butchers off business

Edited March 8, 2018 by OptimoMaximo
little correction

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, CSVirtual said:

I will not "submit" to this tool as if this tool was a measure of quality.

As others already have said, nobody's forcing you to do anything. But don't you think people have the right to know the hidden cost of the items they purchase? If you choose to ignore it, that's up to you of course but shuold we try to hide the info?

Now, sorry about this but there are a few things that were said earlier in the thread that have been bothering me so I decided to do a test.

On 6.3.2018 at 4:23 PM, CSVirtual said:

Where is the laziness, on nice design trying to handle how Li is managed by Second life, or make billboard trees using just free textures ?

and:

On 7.3.2018 at 7:10 AM, MIstahMoose said:

Having to create so much in a month for an event is pretty hard, and if you miss and event or two people start to forget your name.

I'm not going to answer that directly but I want to out it into perspective so I made this:

Judging by the pictures earlier in the thread, this is about the same quality as the trunk of that "Tree of Conflict" - horrible LoD and everything

It took me almost half an hour. To be precise, 28 minutes from the moment I launched Blender to the moment I had the trunk uploaded and textured. Add less than half an hour for the foliage:

I didn't make textures for it, I used some old ones I already had. The bark texture is trivial but the foliage texture might well take an hour or even two to make - depending on how good the available seed textures are.

But the bottom line is, this is not a big elaborate work - it's a quickie.