Firestorm 5.0.11 New Mesh Building Tools

[OptimoMaximo]

3 hours ago, CSVirtual said:

Yes, and on SL, the person who rents the sim is the "tech director". I pay for my sim, and on my sim. I have the right to create what I want . I pay for this and in this case Linden lab is a server and service provider no less no more and if I want a high poly house, I can, I pay for this, or maybe Linden lab will advice me and all other peoples in the same case to rent elsewhere ? 

You can do whatever you like on your freaking land, but don't come here defending and condoning practices that are blatantly and unanimously wrong. The item type you so strongly defend is for sale, so your previous post claim that majority of users create for their own consumption doesn't hold for a fraction of a second.

[MIstahMoose]

7 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

That is the whole point, bruh (as you say): realtime rendering environments are not made for high poly models. Game engines are not made for high poly models either, where the limit threshold of such definition may vary because it depends on many factors. It's not a "depends how you work" or "design choices" type of matter, it's a matter of following what a tech director would set as limit for the development of a specific product and its contents guidelines. The difference sits in SL where there's no enforcement of such guidelines. Your loose approach is somehow a claim that medium-high poly is acceptable in SL. Don't get me wrong, i do organic modeling and rigging, and 30K /40K polygons is an average number for triple A high end games type of characters, fully outfitted with all possible accessories (including the simpler hairstyles), not the naked body alone. They can get even a bit higher; however, they also do in separate assets to fall within what their realtime software is capable to handle, as per the tech director's estimation, both for rendering capabilities and file read speed . Perhaps you should read about the limits of the uploader and find your way to comply to them, instead of the brute-force type of approach "trying to get the uploader to accept my mesh" and saying that LL should help by improving the uploader is just the same type of claim.

Okkkay, see you at gdc bruh

My b, That was rude. However.. Try making a character that fits within this environments standards and get nominal sales with it. Cuz its probably not happening.
Also, You may be behind on real time rendering standards... Again I've already stated my disappointment in LL in this category. Im prob gonna stop feeding you at this point, but what you want from creators is not going to make them sales and therefore no incentive to even create here. LL has to step up, and give us tools and an engine that can handle the tools they give us. IE They gave us Normal and spec but Advanced lighting lags machines if more than a few 512 textures are on screen. 
So I get it dude, I do. I work in the same field as you seem to, but again you gotta chill my man.

Edited March 8, 2018 by MIstahMoose

[MIstahMoose]

42 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

As others already have said, nobody's forcing you to do anything. But don't you think people have the right to know the hidden cost of the items they purchase? If you choose to ignore it, that's up to you of course but shuold we try to hide the info?

Now, sorry about this but there are a few things that were said earlier in the thread that have been bothering me so I decided to do a test.

and:

I'm not going to answer that directly but I want to out it into perspective so I made this:

Judging by the pictures earlier in the thread, this is about the same quality as the trunk of that "Tree of Conflict" - horrible LoD and everything

It took me almost half an hour. To be precise, 28 minutes from the moment I launched Blender to the moment I had the trunk uploaded and textured. Add less than half an hour for the foliage:

I didn't make textures for it, I used some old ones I already had. The bark texture is trivial but the foliage texture might well take an hour or even two to make - depending on how good the available seed textures are.

But the bottom line is, this is not a big elaborate work - it's a quickie.

So I was playing devils advocate on that one, but to be fair I see some creators with 5+ events. And I am -not- casting shade, but some things do take a lot longer than what you displayed here, So I feel my argument is still valid for those creators. I agree everyone should do their best, but its just not always possible. Especially when you have to rig something, and everyone demands at least 3 different bodies.. Its very time consuming. And if you have a more complex object, say a Sci-fi event.. Creating the object and then retopo and textures.. its time consuming. x5. I get htat its -do-able- but its also very few creators full time gigs, they just want to do it for fun.. No one wants to do boring retopo when theyre working in SL for fun.. So I do get it, but again its up to LL To provide better tools. Not to fuss at creators (IMO).

[ChinRey]

10 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

So I was playing devils advocate on that one, but to be fair I see some creators with 5+ events. And I am -not- casting shade, but some things do take a lot longer than what you displayed here, So I feel my argument is still valid for those creators.

Oh definitely yes. I'm not claiming that all event merchants are shady or shoddy. There are some excellent content creators who really spend time on their builds who aprticipate in some of the big events.

[ChinRey]

42 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

Also, You may be behind on real time rendering standards...

Maybe, maybe not. @arton Rotaru posted this link a week or two ago:

http://polycount.com/discussion/184711/dishonored-2-environment-art-dump

It's a pro game modeller showing off his best work. Look at that wonderful building in the first three pictures. Then look at picture no. 4. Those are the bits that building was made from.

I think what happens is that the average SL content creators and other amateurs see those glorious graphics from high end games and such and believe they must be high poly (and high pixel density). They don't understand that the real reason those scenes look so much better (apart from the shading - we can't do anything about that) is that they are made by professional artists who know how to make every little detail count.

I'm a musician in real life and I'm quite familiar with a similar phenomena there: the amateur tries to play as many notes as possible, the pro plays the right note and the note right.

Edited March 8, 2018 by ChinRey

[MIstahMoose]

8 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Maybe, maybe not. @arton Rotaru posted this link a week or two ago:

http://polycount.com/discussion/184711/dishonored-2-environment-art-dump

It's a pro game modeller showing off his best work. Look at that wonderful building in the first three pictures. Then look at picture no. 4. Those are the bits that building was made from.

I think what happens is that the average SL content creators and other amateurs see those glorious graphics from high end games and such and believe they must be high poly (and high pixel density). They don't understand that the real reason those scenes look so much better (apart from the shading - we can't do anything about that) is that they are made by professional artists who know how to make every little detail count.

I'm a musician in real life and I'm quite familiar with a similar phenomena there: the amateur tries to play as many notes as possible, the pro plays the right note and the note right.

We cant even begin to compare the difference in PBR vs Spec/Norm. Im not even sure if its "specgloss" for SL.. 
Its a whole other ballpark of optimization, because the maps actually -do- something.

ETA: By maps doign something, I mean you can see them and turn them on. PBR Is a beast of details, and its much more than placing polygons. However thats all we -can- do in SL, is pixel density and polygons. We don't have 10 maps per object to render out a beautiful real time graphic with microsurface details

https://www.marmoset.co/posts/basic-theory-of-physically-based-rendering/

Edited March 8, 2018 by MIstahMoose

[ChinRey]

3 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

We cant even begin to compare the difference in PBR vs Spec/Norm. Im not even sure if its "specgloss" for SL.. 
Its a whole other ballpark of optimization, because the maps actually -do- something.

Oh yes that's true.

But trying to compensate for the simpler shaders by adding lots of extra polys, isn't going to help. And if we then go on and try to compensate for the excessive number of polys in the high LoD model by reducing the others - the ones people actually see most of the time - it gets downright counter productive.

But then there's the question why do we want/need top-of-the-top quality graphics in Second Life? It's not a rhetorical question. I can think of several possible answers myself but I'd really like what others think about it. Then again, maybe that should go i na  spearate thread.

[MIstahMoose]

1 minute ago, ChinRey said:

Oh yes that's true.

But trying to compensate for the simpler shaders by adding lots of extra polys, isn't going to help. And if we then go on and try to compensate for the excessive number of polys in the high LoD model by reducing the others - the ones people actually see most of the time - it gets downright counter productive.

But then there's the question why do we want/need top-of-the-top quality graphics in Second Life? It's not a rhetorical question. I can think of several possible answers myself but I'd really like what others think about it. Then again, maybe that should go i na  spearate thread.

Yep, I agree, but in this sort of platform LL really has to create tools that automate a lot of that, or at least make it so super simple because.. 99% of people creating for this platform arent going to be professionals, and aren't going to want to spend their time doing anything but creating for fun and throwing it into SL immediately. But I don't disagree, It just -cant- be on the user IMO. 

I mean, keeping up with the standards of modern games is extremely hard, but we're starting to fall pretty far behind in SL. We dont -need- graphics to be top of the line, I mean.. This could be dwarf fortress.. But The better graphics we have the more enjoyable SL becomes for people. Users who spend their time making beautiful avatars can make them even better, sims can be more fantastical especially if we get things like god rays, that aren't just prims with textures  and so forth.. Its just a better experience, and its why modern games are moving higher and higher in graphics as well.

Thats how I feel towards that, and I do agree people are very counter productive. But the top stores right now, lets take vale koer for example. To achieve the high quality they have, they have to use a ton of polygons, and four 1k texture maps just for their tops. Thats crazy right? But its all they can do, because if you say "Oh use normal maps for your wrinkles" etc, well.. I don't know if youve played much with normal maps in SL (besides the lag they create) is that theyre.. jsut bad.. How light is rendered and works here doesnt seem to work well with the  normals/Spec SL uses. And to make normals really pop, your object ends up being shiny.. So its a strange balance and it doesnt feel right creatively. 
I think a source of the Normal/spec issue is that most users create normals for DirectX and I think SL uses GLSL?

Sorry I rambled a bit, Havent slept in a bit

[ChinRey]

3 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

But The better graphics we have the more enjoyable SL becomes for people.

If that improvement came at no cost, yes.

But if we weigh that against the lag, the waiting for scenes to rez, the missing background details caused by poor LoD and low draw distance, the errant triangles and items flickering in and out because of dodgy LoD models. All those nagging details distract from the experience and reduce the quality and no amount of wishful thinking can change the fact that they are all direct and inevitable results of the high poly and pixel counts. Are we loosing more than we gain?

[Rolig Loon]

7 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

But then there's the question why do we want/need top-of-the-top quality graphics in Second Life? It's not a rhetorical question. I can think of several possible answers myself but I'd really like what others think about it.

Years ago, I attended a seminar presented by one of the top people in management at Disney World, whose name I have since forgotten. The subject was how to set goals for continuous improvement. The major point that stuck with me was one that I paraphrase as "Our visitors don't compare us to other theme parks.  They compare us to FedEx and the local trolley system."  That is, Disney World visitors spend much of their time experiencing the details of standing in line and getting from point A to point B. Their measure of how well Disney does is how well Disney stacks up against other systems that move things and people. 

So ... why do we need high quality graphics in SL?  We wouldn't, if most people stayed in SL all the time. People see high quality graphics in their favorite video game elsewhere and that's the standard our graphics are compared with.  It doesn't matter that those games are running in a very different environment under different limitations.  All that matters is what the user sees.  The challenge is to meet their quality expectation within our limitations.

[arton Rotaru]

8 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

Sorry I rambled a bit, Havent slept in a bit

Reading your posts, I get the impression it's you who haven't played much with material maps in SL actually.

[MIstahMoose]

Just now, ChinRey said:

If that improvement came at no cost, yes.

But if we weigh that against the lag, the waiting for scenes to rez, the missing background details caused by poor LoD and low draw distance, the errant triangles and items flickering in and out because of dodgy LoD models. All those nagging details distract from the experience and reduce the quality and no amount of wishful thinking can change the fact that they are all direct and inevitable results of the high poly and pixel counts. Are we loosing more than we gain?

But thats where the first statement comes in, LL has to have the tools that automate and helps to fix some of these. IE I said in a post earlier in this thread, when mesh was first coming out I wanted LL to hire someone to manually approve everything that went onto the grid. I get that it may be unrealistic, but there are marketplaces for 3D that are doing it. I don't see why it should be any different. Make beta grid infinite unmonitored uploads, then upload your main model to the main grid. Unfortunately this would suck if you mess something up and have to resubmit

[MIstahMoose]

5 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said:

Reading your posts, I get the impression it's you who haven't played much with material maps in SL actually.

I have a lot, My entire mainstore I built around using advanced lighting. As a test, the build itself isnt that great but the textures and materials are there if you want to take a look. I use materials on my clothing as well. I've been using materials since it first came out, but I stand by my statements. Its laggy, and very annoying to get right because of how SL lighting works and espc because that lighting changes constantly user to user.

ETA: Though my expectations and desires I think are different from most here. Theres no need to be condescending, either. If someone has a difference of opinion.

Edited March 8, 2018 by MIstahMoose

[ChinRey]

24 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

I've been using materials since it first came out, but I stand by my statements.

 

This a total digression but just for fun, rez a prim and add this script to it:

default
{
    state_entry()
    {
        llSetTexture( "2b8d91e4-a106-6b5b-d492-749a1dbf9121",ALL_SIDES);
    }
}

What you see is obviously a normal map, etehr for some crumbled paper or some rock face texture. What's itneresting about it, is that it has the same UUID on the OS Grid as it ahs in SL. Unless something really weird is going on, that should mean it's been here since long before ALM. This is just one of a set of such apparently early normal maps. Some seem to be failed attempts at making a water normal map for Windlight but others, liek this one, obviously aren't. It is of course possible they are rejected bumpiness maps but I doubt it for a number of reasons.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Rolig Loon said:

So ... why do we need high quality graphics in SL?  We wouldn't, if most people stayed in SL all the time. People see high quality graphics in their favorite video game elsewhere and that's the standard our graphics are compared with.  It doesn't matter that those games are running in a very different environment under different limitations.  All that matters is what the user sees.  The challenge is to meet their quality expectation within our limitations.

There are two possible responses to that and I'm not good art makng choices so:

The first one is: It's not going to happen. It doesn't matter how good the teacher is, the horse will never learn to sing. Linden Lab has often been accused of going out on wild goose chases rather than play on their strengths. Is that what happens here too?

Second:

On 7.3.2018 at 3:28 PM, Whirly Fizzle said:

Too many triangles in a scene will cause a "black hole" where any object rezzed in the area (prim or mesh)  will be invisible.
If you have RenderVolumeLODFactor set high in the viewer, you are more likely to see these black hole spots inworld.

So, increasing the LOD factor too much, may ruin the scene.

I think something similar is happening here: the high number of polys and pixels may increase the nominal graphics quality but because of the factors I mentioned earlier, it may well reduce the perceived quality. And once we start to get collapsing or unstable LoD models to make room for more polys in the high res models, we're certainly talking drastic reduction in graphics quality, both perceived and nominal. No amount of extra polys and pixels can possibly justify or compensate for that.

 

Edit:

I can think of a third response too and that's not a pretty one. Here is a picture of a sim, taken with mid res graphic on Firestorm a while ago:

This is a sim owned by LInden Lab themselves and according to the destination guide it's "the ultimate in shared creative spaces".

And that brings up a rather ugly question: when it comes to graphcis quality, is there anybody at Linden Lab at all who has any clue whatsoever what it is about???

Edited March 8, 2018 by ChinRey

[Rolig Loon]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

There are two possible responses to that and I'm not good art makng choices so:

The first one is: It's not going to happen. It doesn't matter how good the teacher is, the horse will never learn to sing. Linden Lab has often been accused of going out on wild goose chases rather than play on their strengths. Is that what happens here too?

I'm not sure that I understand what's "not going to happen". If you mean that SL creators are not going to learn how to do better work, I disagree and am saddened by your pessimism.  I think creators are up to the challenge.  If you mean that they are never going to meet user expectations for the sort of high-end graphics that they see in video games, though, I do agree. But that's no excuse for not trying to do the best we can, given the obvious limitations of SL. I think that's the sense of the conversation in this thread. Creators can do a lot better than they have been. For some, it's a matter of learning on the job.  This has been a world created by amateurs, after all, and it takes amateurs a long time to get really good.  We have an increasing number of professional creators here, though, and their problem has been to adapt their skills to an unfamiliar world where real-time, low-poly rules. In a way, their struggle is just as daunting as the amateurs' is.

Whether you are a professional or an amateur, the challenge is to create work that strives to meet consumer expectations. My point was that those expectations may be unrealistic, but they are the yardstick that many SL residents use to judge our work. Amateurs shouldn't let inexperience and complacency lure them into settling for "good enough." And professionals shouldn't bring high-poly skills to SL, cannibalize the LOD, and pass the work off as "good enough" either, even if it's an impressive step ahead of what we used to have here.

[OptimoMaximo]

4 hours ago, MIstahMoose said:

Also, You may be behind on real time rendering standards...

No, i'm not. The one who has to realize that those standards represent what for SL would have been possible only in the future, and those standards are not gonna happen here. Face it, get over it.

 

3 hours ago, MIstahMoose said:

We cant even begin to compare the difference in PBR vs Spec/Norm. Im not even sure if its "specgloss" for SL.. 

It's a hybrid, bruh... blinn model based spec gloss with a base color instead of a diffuse and a metalness called environment to hold the lack from the actual diffuse.

 

4 hours ago, MIstahMoose said:

Okkkay, see you at gdc bruh

Don't you realize how ridiculous you sound with this? Yeah right you're one of the habitueé...

 

3 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

Reading your posts, I get the impression it's you who haven't played much with material maps in SL actually.

Indeed you're right. There is always a way to reliably convert them to something usable for SL. Plus, if you use a PBR capable application you can always use those materials to bake out photorealistic textures anyway.

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

There are two possible responses to that and I'm not good art makng choices so:

The first one is: It's not going to happen. It doesn't matter how good the teacher is, the horse will never learn to sing. Linden Lab has often been accused of going out on wild goose chases rather than play on their strengths. Is that what happens here too?

Second:

So, increasing the LOD factor too much, may ruin the scene.

I think something similar is happening here: the high number of polys and pixels may increase the nominal graphics quality but because of the factors I mentioned earlier, it may well reduce the perceived quality. And once we start to get collapsing or unstable LoD models to make room for more polys in the high res models, we're certainly talking drastic reduction in graphics quality, both perceived and nominal. No amount of extra polys and pixels can possibly justify or compensate for that.

 

Edit:

I can think of a third response too and that's not a pretty one. Here is a picture of a sim, taken with mid res graphic on Firestorm a while ago:

This is a sim owned by LInden Lab themselves and according to the destination guide it's "the ultimate in shared creative spaces".

And that brings up a rather ugly question: when it comes to graphcis quality, is there anybody at Linden Lab at all who has any clue whatsoever what it is about???

Yeah, and there was that Linden who kept calling themself a "mesh master" and "one of the best builders in Second Life" when I haven't seen them make anything more impressive than some houses that are essentially boxes with windows and some "plants" that look like something out of a pop-up book.

 

Oh wait - that wasn't a Linden...

Edited March 8, 2018 by Theresa Tennyson

[MIstahMoose]

3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

 

This a total digression but just for fun, rez a prim and add this script to it:

default
{
    state_entry()
    {
        llSetTexture( "2b8d91e4-a106-6b5b-d492-749a1dbf9121",ALL_SIDES);
    }
}

What you see is obviously a normal map, etehr for some crumbled paper or some rock face texture. What's itneresting about it, is that it has the same UUID on the OS Grid as it ahs in SL. Unless something really weird is going on, that should mean it's been here since long before ALM. This is just one of a set of such apparently early normal maps. Some seem to be failed attempts at making a water normal map for Windlight but others, liek this one, obviously aren't. It is of course possible they are rejected bumpiness maps but I doubt it for a number of reasons.

Its normal for game engines to have normals and specular in only certain areas? Maybe it was constrained to system limits of the original launch of SL? IE A lot of older games only have normal and spec for very few scenarios? Not sure what the point you're making with it was, but yes its fun to see the hidden gems of prior to mesh normals

[MIstahMoose]

58 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

No, i'm not. The one who has to realize that those standards represent what for SL would have been possible only in the future, and those standards are not gonna happen here. Face it, get over it.

 

It's a hybrid, bruh... blinn model based spec gloss with a base color instead of a diffuse and a metalness called environment to hold the lack from the actual diffuse.

 

Don't you realize how ridiculous you sound with this? Yeah right you're one of the habitueé...

 

Indeed you're right. There is always a way to reliably convert them to something usable for SL. Plus, if you use a PBR capable application you can always use those materials to bake out photorealistic textures anyway.

Like I said, A million times, and first of all #rude

I don't have to face or get over anything, I can hope and I can wish and want for LL To deliver something. Thats my right as a user Just like your right is to be condescending to me
 (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧
 

Im glad your enjoying my bruh meme and really showing me the respect you seek as a person!

PBR TO bake down, oh no then we get the argument on the other side of "Why are creators baking lighting! I want to normals and specular!" 

DO you even create here bruh, with all your mighty superiority complex of what should be done right or wrong, whats the last thing you actually sold? Like not to be mean but **** son u got some right or wrong egos and all I present are my opinions "Hey this is what creators do and think, And heres why" and you're over here like

bam bam whim wham i gotta show moose hes totally wrong in the rudest way possible! Oh dangit, he got me with a zinger! Better use french! 

But then.. The most recent thing you've made is a spaceship..So are you just one of those guys who preach it but don't practice it? 

I get it man, you gotta be condescending to someone giving their opinions on an online forum because no one takes you seriously in the world outside of SL. I get it, do you want me to pat your back and say you're teh best optibro! 

Like you're actually exhausting to deal with. Should I rewrite all your posts to show you how to talk to human beans?

Enjoy your day dude, I'm actually done asf with you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited March 8, 2018 by MIstahMoose

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

...

when I haven't seen them make anything more impressive than some houses that are essentially boxes with windows and some "plants" that look like something out of a pop-up book.

Oh. For a moment I thought it was me you were talking about. I'm glad I was wrong there and I'm sorry I mistrusted you, Theresa.

[OptimoMaximo]

6 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

Like I said, A million times, and first of all #rude

I don't have to face or get over anything, I can hope and I can wish and want for LL To deliver something. Thats my right as a user Just like your right is to be condescending to me
 (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧
 

Im glad your enjoying my bruh meme and really showing me the respect you seek as a person!

PBR TO bake down, oh no then we get the argument on the other side of "Why are creators baking lighting! I want to normals and specular!" 

DO you even create here bruh, with all your mighty superiority complex of what should be done right or wrong, whats the last thing you actually sold? Like not to be mean but **** son u got some right or wrong egos and all I present are my opinions "Hey this is what creators do and think, And heres why" and you're over here like

bam bam whim wham i gotta show moose hes totally wrong in the rudest way possible! Oh dangit, he got me with a zinger! Better use french! 

But then.. The most recent thing you've made is a spaceship..So are you just one of those guys who preach it but don't practice it? 

I get it man, you gotta be condescending to someone giving their opinions on an online forum because no one takes you seriously in the world outside of SL. I get it, do you want me to pat your back and say you're teh best optibro! 

Like you're actually exhausting to deal with. Should I rewrite all your posts to show you how to talk to human beans?

Enjoy your day dude, I'm actually done asf with you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

oh you looked up my free time full perms stuff MP, when i do actually do jobs for others, so yes i actually do make stuff here, bruh, when not doing 3D for RL jobs, too. So i do practice what i preach, but my work doesn't need to be visible to you. This is what creators do and think? Reality check: 1) LoD butchery is widespread due to laziness or incomptence 2) the fact that they do it doesn't condone a practice that is against a developer's common sense, given that the specs are in place, with all the issues that breaking the guidelines bring. Don't you think i would ask for the same, so it would be easier for me too, if i didn't know what actually impedes the delivery of what you claim?

 

Yes dude, baking lighting and making maps for (and not from) that baked lighting is what works in SL, as the PBR's dull base colors, bruh, don't work if some shading detail isn't in the base texture. Bruh.

Yes, you gotta face that the current architecture doesn't allow for such features you're claiming. Get over it. The specs is all you need to know and fall to. You won't get the 65536 vertices limit lifted, because the architecture, the binary format, doesn't allow it at the current state, and Lindens have, more than once, stated that they are,ìt going to mess up with the established asset architecture.

And for last, the personal accusations: no, i don't have any issue in RL about being taken seriously. My only issue is with people like you, considering their opinion the best among the others and need to support and defend it to death, against those who actually have a clue about the matter, who are trying to explain to you why it's not possible. But you fight it all the way through without even trying to get info for yourself. 

AM i exhausting? Good, that's the strength that comes from having solid points. I'm not exhausted at all, easy peasy so far.

[Chic Aeon]

5 hours ago, MIstahMoose said:

Its laggy, and very annoying to get right because of how SL lighting works and espc because that lighting changes constantly user to user.

It doesn't have to be terribly laggy if folks would use SMALLER than 1024 maps which most that I have seen do not).

BUT I am with you (probably the only thing that you said that I agree with LOL)  on the maps and Windlight (R) and that is why I seldom use them. We have NO control over the lighting other are using. This is not a platform where we SET the lighting (we can "suggest" that folks use our lighting but that is all) and personally I am almost always using my own Windlight (R) settings. Under some lighting conditions both normal and specular maps (even carefully made ones) can look truly horrible and not something you would want someone to think you made. 

In Cloud Party we DID set the lighting for everyone and I believe that is the case in Sansar if I read the articles correctly. But not here. Here we have FREEDOM, freedom with our sky and water settings, freedom to upload heavy mesh with lousey LODs and bad physics -- FREEDOM. And freedom while I am all for it, comes with a cost.  That's the trade off.  

Actually from what you have said on this thread it seems like you might prefer Sansar (and that was not a snide remark). 

 

 

[MIstahMoose]

1 hour ago, OptimoMaximo said:

oh you looked up my free time full perms stuff MP, when i do actually do jobs for others, so yes i actually do make stuff here, bruh, when not doing 3D for RL jobs, too. So i do practice what i preach, but my work doesn't need to be visible to you. This is what creators do and think? Reality check: 1) LoD butchery is widespread due to laziness or incomptence 2) the fact that they do it doesn't condone a practice that is against a developer's common sense, given that the specs are in place, with all the issues that breaking the guidelines bring. Don't you think i would ask for the same, so it would be easier for me too, if i didn't know what actually impedes the delivery of what you claim?

 

Yes dude, baking lighting and making maps for (and not from) that baked lighting is what works in SL, as the PBR's dull base colors, bruh, don't work if some shading detail isn't in the base texture. Bruh.

Yes, you gotta face that the current architecture doesn't allow for such features you're claiming. Get over it. The specs is all you need to know and fall to. You won't get the 65536 vertices limit lifted, because the architecture, the binary format, doesn't allow it at the current state, and Lindens have, more than once, stated that they are,ìt going to mess up with the established asset architecture.

And for last, the personal accusations: no, i don't have any issue in RL about being taken seriously. My only issue is with people like you, considering their opinion the best among the others and need to support and defend it to death, against those who actually have a clue about the matter, who are trying to explain to you why it's not possible. But you fight it all the way through without even trying to get info for yourself. 

AM i exhausting? Good, that's the strength that comes from having solid points. I'm not exhausted at all, easy peasy so far.

maybe that comes with your narcissism, because I never stood up for my points other than to debate mi amigo. You're the one getting your panties in a twist and rather than opening up and having a conversation you decided you're better and should just preach at me.
1) LOD Butchery is widespread cuz hey this isnt a professional platform 
2) See #1
 And I never considered my opinion the best, I even agreed that LOD is the -best- way to do it, I just said that Hey LL Should provide tools otherwise this issue wont get fixed. But hurdur no I gotta be wrong to your glorious intelligence.

Again telling me to get over it, Dude, I keep saying this is what I want/wish. And that this is what creators do to get around the specs. I don't get you man, I really don't. You get salty when I misinterpret your ***** but dang all you do is misinterpret and preach at someone just trying to give a different opinion.

And I would be exhausted if I was you, I wasted enough time I could have been productive with; on you.

So goodbye Mr Narcissistic tendencies, Maybe we can chat again when you figure out how to have a discussion thats not a one sided "Ha, Wrong!" speech.

P.S. Your last line confirms a lot of things about you

[MIstahMoose]

15 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

It doesn't have to be terribly laggy if folks would use SMALLER than 1024 maps which most that I have seen do not).

BUT I am with you (probably the only thing that you said that I agree with LOL)  on the maps and Windlight (R) and that is why I seldom use them. We have NO control over the lighting other are using. This is not a platform where we SET the lighting (we can "suggest" that folks use our lighting but that is all) and personally I am almost always using my own Windlight (R) settings. Under some lighting conditions both normal and specular maps (even carefully made ones) can look truly horrible and not something you would want someone to think you made. 

In Cloud Party we DID set the lighting for everyone and I believe that is the case in Sansar if I read the articles correctly. But not here. Here we have FREEDOM, freedom with our sky and water settings, freedom to upload heavy mesh with lousey LODs and bad physics -- FREEDOM. And freedom while I am all for it, comes with a cost.  That's the trade off.  

Actually from what you have said on this thread it seems like you might prefer Sansar (and that was not a snide remark). 

 

 

I don't agree with a lot that I've said here either, Just stating what its like in most creators head and what I personally have to abide to be competitive in the clothing market. 

I would have loved if Sansar was...actually good :\ Lots of money siphoned for a practically VR-only experience with terrible user interaction and avatars as of now. Not sure if they decided to let us upload our own avatars yet.