Good mainland neighbors

[Erik Herriat]

Hello.

I have a question about SL rules and good neighbor behavour.

I have this 512 sqm parcel on mainland, and I placed this 100m holosphere above 3000 meters. Although sphere's coordinates are over my land, so technically it is over my land, obviously it hangs over neighbor land. I chose 3000m altitude hoping none of my neighbors would have problem with it. But I was wrong I discovered that one of my neighbors placed ugly purple cube over his property which sticks into the sphere and of course screws up the whole experience.

I talked to the neighbor, but he sticks to the point that he can put anything he wants on his property and I should not have this sphere hanging over his land in the first place.

I wonder what people think about this, who is right and who is wrong, and whether LL can help me here, or I really should remove the sphere ?

 

Thanks.

Erik

[Randall Ahren]

Yes, you should remove the sphere. When you place an object on your parcel that projects onto a neighboring parcel, your object is said to be encroaching on your neighbor's property. He is justified in filing an abuse report against you for that. 

[Nefertiti Nefarious]

The neighbor is right, your 100m holo-whatever is encroaching on the neighbor's sir space and needs to be removed. A 512m plot is typically 16x32 ... that's the largest horizontal area any prim you place can occupy without running afoul of the neighbors parcels AND the SL rules. LL will either tell you to remove the sphere OR they will remove it for you.

[Cinnamon Lohner]

You are in the wrong here and need to remove the sphere.

--Cinn

[Jenni Darkwatch]

More or less soon your point might be moot. LL is working on code to deal with encroaching on other peoples land.

[Qwalyphi Korpov]

The resident who provided the previous content, if any, has replaced it with this generic statement.

[Willow Danube]

 

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Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

Alternatively you could post over in the 'Wanted' forum looking for a neighbors who don't mind letting your stuff hang over their parcel.

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Too bad, I just moved! :smileywink:

 

To the OP: On my previous 512m parcel, someone had placed a huge megaprim platform over my land that prevented me from using my parcel as a free skydive place. Since it was one extra prim that are not counted.. I had used it as the grazing platform for my cow where I put in extra grasses whilst I sit there on my rocking chair, knitting and watching the moon.

But I have recently moved to a waterfront region where my neighbour, Thunder, is not only a brilliant builder but the kindnest person I've met so far. Two of my parcels were separated by his land and he offered to terraform his land so I could move across freely without using a teleport or I could just build a bridge over his walkway.

I truly believe, encroachment would not have to be an issue if you and your neighbour had established a mutual agreement in the first place. But sure yes, like everyone else already said here... your neighbour owns that space.

[Erik Herriat]

16 meters holosphere LOL

Thanks

[Pauline Darkfury]

The neighbour who was legitimately but deliberately interfering with the use of the scenic sphere is a bad neighbour, but is not doing anything against ToS.  In saying that, I make the assumption that the sphere was in no way interfering with the neighbour's existing build (i.e. not adjacent to it, not visible from it at any reasonable draw distance).  Hopefully karma will provide that person with a big lump of non-encroaching ugly right up against their content.

My own policy on such things is that if they are not close to my own content, high above terrain (so no visual blight visible at ground level), not causing any other problems, and not using any of my prims (they can't anyway, I always have autoreturn set and actively check for any unwanted objects that have managed to avoid the autoreturn), then they can encroach relatively freely with non-harassing scenic stuff.  I'll even help them setup such things if they ask nicely and let them know which parts of the sky I'd prefer to be clear.

[Luc Starsider]

Being a good neighbour means, among other things, that you keep your prims within your parces. Lots of people use the airspace, all 4096 m of it, for different things, and do not expect to bump into someone else's junk when they fly around or build on their own property.

- Luc -

[Jaylin Wytchwood]

 

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Pauline Darkfury wrote:

The neighbour who was legitimately but deliberately interfering with the use of the scenic sphere is a bad neighbour, but is not doing anything against ToS.  In saying that, I make the assumption that the sphere was in no way interfering with the neighbour's existing build (i.e. not adjacent to it, not visible from it at any reasonable draw distance).  Hopefully karma will provide that person with a big lump of non-encroaching ugly right up against their content.

My own policy on such things is that if they are not close to my own content, high above terrain (so no visual blight visible at ground level), not causing any other problems, and not using any of my prims (they can't anyway, I always have autoreturn set and actively check for any unwanted objects that have managed to avoid the autoreturn), then they can encroach relatively freely with non-harassing scenic stuff.  I'll even help them setup such things if they ask nicely and let them know which parts of the sky I'd prefer to be clear.

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So you say, its ok that objects reach indiscriminately into your parcel, as long as it dosnt disturb your view or own build?

Your Policy is your policy. Others have theirs. I would not want to stick someone else prims over my parcel, unless i agreed to it (one can ask you know?). Actually i guess on a mainland Parcel 3000-4000m in the air is the most valuable place on the whole parcel, for Skyboxes.

The purple cube the neighbour built, is maybe his building project there, and its his land, even by your own policies the OP is wrong.

 

 

[Pauline Darkfury]

 

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Jaylin Wytchwood wrote:

So you say, its ok that objects reach indiscriminately into your parcel, as long as it dosnt disturb your view or own build?

Your Policy is your policy. Others have theirs. I would not want to stick someone else prims over my parcel, unless i agreed to it (one can ask you know?). Actually i guess on a mainland Parcel 3000-4000m in the air is the most valuable place on the whole parcel, for Skyboxes.

The purple cube the neighbour built, is maybe his building project there, and its his land, even by your own policies the OP is wrong.

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Yeah, I have zero issues with a neighbour having something like a 100m scenic sphere encroaching my land as long as it's high in the sky (at least 1000m, to keep the ground level view clear), not beside part of the sky I'm using, and not malicious in intent.  Yes, it's better to ask first.  There's nothing special about 3000-4000m vs. 1000-3000m, loads of vertical space for people to co-exist and not be visible to each other on 128 or 192m draw distance.

The OP's description makes it sound like the purple cube was an entirely malicious addition by the neighbour purely to annoy the OP.  It's impossible to know for sure without seeing it and speaking to the people concerned, that's just what it sounds like to me, legitimate under ToS, but still an act of malice.

[Pauline Darkfury]

 

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Luc Starsider wrote:

Being a good neighbour means, among other things, that you keep your prims within your parces. Lots of people use the airspace, all 4096 m of it, for different things, and do not expect to bump into someone else's junk when they fly around or build on their own property.

- Luc -

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No.  Being a good neighbour means trying to both avoid disrupting their use of the land and being accomodating to stuff which enhances the use of their land if it costs you nothing to do so, and has absolutely nothing to do with precise technical definitions of encroachment or other rules.  If the OP plonked their 100m scenic sphere close to a part of the sky used by their neighbour, then the OP is in the wrong to do that.  If the sky was empty at that point and they had non-malicious intent, the OP wasn't really doing anything seriously wrong (despite what ToS may say about encroachment, it's very common for people to have scenic spheres that encroach and normally not a big deal if done carefully and without malice).

 

[Luc Starsider]

Soooooo, I could by a stamp size plot, say 16x16 m, and if I found some space in the sky that noone else used, I could just get a megaprim as big as the sim out, and make  myself a HUGE holodeck if I wanted to. That would be ok with you? Simply ignore the fact that I actually boutght a tiny plot and just do whatever I liked in the sky above it? I wouldn't do it to be an idiot, you know, I just happen to like big scenic spaces. Or I just wanted a place to go driving my car around in peace.

At the very least, you would have to contact your neighbours and get their approval if you wanted to encroach their space.

- Luc -

[Josephina Bonetto]

My neighbours are by no means bad, I do have a glowfest to look at on one side and have to endure buildings which are not to my taste but that is the price of mainland. 

I left an encroaching tree on my land for years because I couldn't be bothered to tell the neighbour to move it even though I didn't like it much, it is gone now.  I do have a neighbour I do not consider to be a good neighbour, in that uppity/catty comments have been made.  I muted her, job done.  I'm not interested in getting into anything with someone like that, especially as my land is well received by most people and not an eyesore, with respectful residents living on it.

My land is poor on script performance which is something that only happened the past 3-6 months, so presumably after a neighbour moved in (my land is relatively unchanged).  I don't expect it to be remedied, which bugs me, but there is nothing I can do about it (and don't recommend AR, I did that to no avail).

Encroachment is best dealt with a polite request - And I have done this two or three times successfully (once unsuccessfully but my neighbour helped me AR the guy). I personally would be less likely to accept a request to permit encroachment where I am with the poor script performance, as I feel that someone is doing something unhelpful on their land to trigger it.  If a neighbour asked me I would use it as a starting point for bargaining over getting changes made to their objects, if they are the source of the problems.  But that is just me. 

However, in my 512 sq m mainland elsewhere, I noticed my new neighbour has actually themed her plot in line with mine, which I was very impressed with.  Care has been taken to blend in and she has done a very nice job.  I TP to there if I want to see good mainland behaviour.

[Pauline Darkfury]

 

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Luc Starsider wrote:

Soooooo, I could by a stamp size plot, say 16x16 m, and if I found some space in the sky that noone else used, I could just get a megaprim as big as the sim out, and make  myself a HUGE holodeck if I wanted to. That would be ok with you? Simply ignore the fact that I actually boutght a tiny plot and just do whatever I liked in the sky above it? I wouldn't do it to be an idiot, you know, I just happen to like big scenic spaces. Or I just wanted a place to go driving my car around in peace.

At the very least, you would have to contact your neighbours and get their approval if you wanted to encroach their space.

- Luc -

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You're just being absurd now!  However, as it happens I tolerate just such a situation on some of my land, someone who has an odd little 128 sq.m. parcel that they use as a home and has a fairly large sphere (I think it's 32 or 64m, but not sure and don't care) which painlessly encroaches into my land without any discussion or permission at 4000m.  They previously had an approx 1/4 sim scenic sculpt surround at 4000m on a 512 elsewhere in that region (also encroaching on my airspace), that didn't really bother me either. The landowner in question doesn't cause me any problems, the sphere is a long way from any of my stuff, doesn't use any of my prims, absolutely no point in being bothered by it.  I do investigate stuff like that and keep an eye on it, but as long as it's all peaceful and non-malicious, it can stay and doesn't get a complaint or AR from me.

 

[PeterCanessa Oh]

Does the OP really have a problem with only ONE neighbour?  A 100m sphere is huge!  It's nearly half-way across the sim FFS.  He's got a 512sqm parcel but is occupying an area of over 7,853sqm, never mind the volume.

That said, yes, if it's just that prim and centred on his own land there's no prim-stealing from other people.  Is it really just an empty, decorative sphere though?  Is it phantom so other people can at least move through their airspace without being blocked?  Is it, when all's said and done, at least not horribly garish from the outside?

I applaud those who wouldn't mind this but I don't think I'd be one of them.

[Pauline Darkfury]

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

Does the OP really have a problem with only ONE neighbour?  A 100m sphere is huge!  It's nearly half-way across the sim FFS.  He's got a 512sqm parcel but is occupying an area of over 7,853sqm, never mind the volume.

That said, yes, if it's just that prim and centred on his own land there's no prim-stealing from other people.  Is it really just an empty, decorative sphere though?  Is it phantom so other people can at least move through their airspace without being blocked?  Is it, when all's said and done, at least not horribly garish from the outside?

I applaud those who wouldn't mind this but I don't think I'd be one of them.

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Yeah, that's a fair point that it's really much bigger than it needs to be.  A 40-64m scenic sphere would normally be plenty large enough around a 512 sized skybox.  On the other hand it's not as big as the (non-encroaching) 256m scenic sphere around one of my own skyboxes

The other questions are quite valid.  My comments above have been based on the OP's original description and assuming no malicious intent by the OP.  If you are going to do something like this, always set it phantom and make the outside as non-ugly as possible, and without any glow.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

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Pauline Darkfury wrote:

 My comments above have been based on the OP's original description and assuming no malicious intent by the OP. .

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Good point there Pauline - @ OP: I don't think any of us believe you are trying to trouble anyone with this but the sheer number of things that can be annoying with such a sphere is almost as huge as it is.  As was suggested earlier, any panoramic view will have a good effect, even one that stays within your parcel boundaries.  Hanging-over a bit might be tolerated but you're really going over the top.

And lol @ Pauline - a whole sim to play with and your sphere's only around one skybox!

[Luc Starsider]

But is it absurd, though. It could happen if it encroachment was the established practice. So, what I wonder is why is that absurd and the OP's issue is not? I'm genuinely wondering.

Just wanted to add a bit here, hopefully making it a bit clearer. What I'm thinking here is that while my example is very different than the OP's when it comes to scale, it is not so different in principle, I believe. In my mind, if one is ok, then the other must be ok. In principle. If not, where does the line go?

- Luc -

[Canis Baxton]

Once upon a time, I had a rude neighbor place a store up at 2500m that encroached onto my land. Her store was such that here patrons were actually walking on MY parcel's airspace while the walked about part of the store. She became enraged when I placed a security device at the same level as her store that was set to only teleport home people who happened to wander onto my parcel.

It caused much drama and yelling and screaming and eventually she convinced the sim owner that I was at fault and i was eventually banned. People can become extremely self righteous and make up all sorts of excuses for their "right" to place objects which encroach upon your land. But in the end they are basically rude and in the wrong no matter how much they whine and moan and state that it is not hurting anyone.

Bottom line is that if your neighbor wants to place a security device or large prim on the border of thier parcel that cuts through your rudely placed object..good for the neighbor.. Take a hint and remove it.

[Yeso Kidd]

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Luc Starsider wrote:

Being a good neighbour means, among other things, that you keep your prims within your parces. Lots of people use the airspace, all 4096 m of it, for different things, and do not expect to bump into someone else's junk when they fly around or build on their own property.

- Luc -

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I agree with this 100%.  Being a good neighbor is respecting the rights and boundaries of your neighbors property and only using the space that you are paying for.  There reason I bought a larger lot is so I could have larger items and I would not extend stuff into my neighbors property, no matter the height it was built.  Also, why do you think LL is working on changing this so we can remove stuff that so called good neighbors that decide what they pay for is not big enough and encroach on others.

[Pussycat Catnap]

 

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Pauline Darkfury wrote:

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Luc Starsider wrote:

Soooooo, I could by a stamp size plot, say 16x16 m, and if I found some space in the sky that noone else used, I could just get a megaprim as big as the sim out, and make  myself a HUGE holodeck if I wanted to. That would be ok with you?

- Luc -

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You're just being absurd now!

 

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Luc was drawing an analogy - not absurd at all, just the logical extension of your stance.

Its a bad neighbor to ever encroach over other's land - no matter the height.

A good neighbor not only pro-actively self polices their own builds, but also works to avoid being at a height in the sky someone else within normal camera view already occupies.

 

[Pauline Darkfury]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Luc was drawing an analogy - not absurd at all, just the logical extension of your stance.

Its a bad neighbor to ever encroach over other's land - no matter the height.

A good neighbor not only pro-actively self polices their own builds, but also works to avoid being at a height in the sky someone else within normal camera view already occupies.

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No, it was reductio ad absurdam, pure and simple.

Yes, and I think I made that point earlier that being a good neighbour is not about a technical encroaching vs. not encroaching, there's far more to it than that and part of it is trying to keep a reasonable separation between skyboxes (at least 100m to get out of shout range, but ideally 200m or more if the sky is sufficiently uncrowded), as well as other important things such as not allowing the land to fill up with random junk from 3rd parties.

Some encroachment is a problem, other encroachment is really not a big deal, and some encroachment is even legitimate.  The OP in this thread described a situation which sounded like a neighbour responding to non-malicious encroachment by dumping a visual-griefing cube adjacent to the OP's build, not against ToS but on the information given by the OP makes that person a bad neighbour to me.  The OP isn't the perfect neighbour, their scenic sphere really was too large, and would have probably been better to open a dialogue with the neighbour beforehand, but out of the OP and the person who apparently negotiated by dropping visual blight, I'd much rather have the OP as a neighbour, as they sound willing to negotiate and compromise over things.  Now that the OP's neighbour has chased away someone who apparently was willing to negotiate and compromise over the shared boundary, they frankly deserve to get a neighbour who doesn't encroach or break ToS but is equally non-cooperative and drops a bunch of ugly right beside them.  Of course, in saying that, we don't have all of the details and have only heard one side of the story, but that's how it appears to me from the information given.

Encroachment is common, it's the specific details about it that make it a problem vs. not a problem, and some is even entirely legitimate.  For some bloody-minded people, 0.01m of encroachment is an issue even when it's nowhere near any of their content, for others a more pragmatic approach is taken.  One of my neighbours has a scenic sphere which encroaches on my land but is not visible from terrain level and well away from my own content, he doesn't have permission for it, but his sphere is not getting returned by my actions.  If the same neighbour dropped something large and encroaching at terrain level, or beside an existing skybox, they would get 24 hours to remove it (less if it actually entered a build), and then it would be removed for them

[Melita Magic]

He may have picked a way to prove his point that you disliked, but I'm afraid TOS is on his side.

I'm afraid in this case you could be considered the 'bad neighbor.' Encroaching of prims or objects even a little bit is frowned on in TOS.

I've asked neighbors to move trees back to their side of the property line in the past, if the branches or fronds cut into what I would like to put there. Sometimes it is a judgment call, and if it's a good neighbor I can overlook some small things like that. 

Might want to look at the drop down list for the Abuse Report menu. And try not to do any of those things on your or your neighbor's land. But it is up to you.

They can AR you for the sphere, though, just so you know.

ETA. If you'd like other people to add what irks them about a neighbor one small thing that irks me is when I have one or two things in the sky, and later, out of all the possible choices, someone else puts their own (usually enormous) blingy blangy object RIGHT next to mine in the sky. (Really - both have one object in the sky and they pick the same height mine is on? Sigh)

So if you were not encroaching onto their land (even at that height) I would be on your side. I try to rez my sky things where it's empty. 

He still would not be against TOS though since he can technically put something every 50 (or 5) meters in the sky if his prims aren't used up yet. So I have never said anything to a neighbor who did that - and they almost all do.