Banning RedZone from Residential land?

[Ofelia Laval]

Hi there ..

 

I'm wondering what fellow landlords have decided to do with regards to tenants use of RedZone on their residential sims. I'd like to hear from those who have chosen to ban it's use and from those who have not.  We occasionally have tenants complain a neighbor has RedZone and are trying to decide what our policy on the device should be. We really do not want to be SL "cops" and I do not mean to start a debate about this product. But, whether it is true or not, there is a perception that this product scans and can spy and I am thinking that perception may be impossible to overcome.

 

Thanks for being willing to share your experiences!

 

Best wishes,

Ofelia Laval

[Denver Ghost]

In our sims, Redzone and any other IP data collection device or HUD is banned. Anyone caught using it, resident or visitor, will be banned. Signs are posted to that effect.

I might also add that we do not allow anyone to impede general transit by using the land option "age verify" or "payment information only." Individuals may be banned but not entire classes of people. Owners DO have the right to deny all public access and use their whitelists because that applies equally to everyone.

[Eunoli Rain]

I own 3 residential sims (that I use an alt to manage) and any device that intrudes on the privacy of our renters is banned, including redzone and others.  Its hard to enforce without being there 24/7, but doing our best.  So far, the residents have all been happy not to have to worry about it.

What I have found is that I've lost renters since the whole debacle began - with the residents just vanishing from the grid entirely.  My guess is they may have been alts that got outted and given up on, due to the timing.  In fact, I'm starting to ponder what else to do with the land because of it.  I wonder if other land owners have experienced this?

[Pauline Darkfury]

Banned completely from all land whether commercial or residential, and not just RZ, but also CDS and any other system which invades privacy or I can't be confident will behave sensibly.  My rental ToS actually bans all security systems, other than hippoSECURE supplied and configured by me for the tenant.  In exceptional circumstances, I'll allow an alternative security system, but only if I can satisfy myself that it won't cause excessive lag, invade privacy, or spam people outside the parcel it's meant to be protecting.

RZ & CDS are worthless for stopping serious copybotters.  CDS doesn't claim to stop griefers, RZ claims that but fails miserably because it can't ever reliably match alts.

Penalty if I find someone with RZ objects rezzed, instant object return of the prohibited objects on the first occasion and a strong reminder that it's not permitted (it was always in my rental ToS, but there are now clear signs up as well).  2nd occasion, unless they can come up with an extremely good reason why they need to be told a 2nd time, all objects retuned, tenant evicted without refund, and probably banned from all of my land.  So far, to my knowledge, nobody has attempted to use RZ on my land, but it's a hard line, zero tolerance issue for me.

[Gina Chrome]

Actually, this is a great question. I own eight sims, residential and commercial. I use RedZone on my main sim and it has served us well. I have never received a complaint about any of my residents having or using RedZone themselves. But this topic does make me think that we need to look ahead and decide how we will handle it when it does happen.

I can tell you that I do not use the hud that came with the updated. I really do not care if people have alts. The only time I access RedZone is if someone has to be banned. I will also ban their alts. This has been a valuable tool for me. However, I do see how people could misuse the product.

Kind Regards,

Gina Chrome

[Dale Innis]

"The only time I access RedZone is if someone has to be banned. I will also ban their alts."

And you will also ban an unknown set of other people, who aren't their alts but who happened to get near a RedZone while using the same IP address because of ISP re-use of IP addresses, or using the same Internet cafe, or being in the same college dorm, or behind the same company or building firewall, or...

Your call how bad for business that might be, of course.  

[deety Galicia]

Gina, the problem is that redzone is not a reliable tool at detecting alts. You could be banning innocent people as well as potential customers.  As for myself and my friends ant etc, we will never step foot near your businesses now that you are a known redzone user.

Thanks

[Gina Chrome]

I do not hide the fact that I use RedZone on my main sim. I made it public on their website.  And if you choose not to step foot on my sim, that is up to you. I use it as a protection for my residents. I only use it on my main sim and actually it is only covering my main office. But again, you don't have to rent from us. I cannot force anyone to rent from us.And again, I do not care about people's alts. Unfortunately, most people that scream about RedZone are people that have alts. At least from what I see.

The arguement that people share ip addresses is something I am concerned with and seems to be a valid arguement.

 

[Ofelia Laval]

Gina,

I think your approach is fair and you are doing what you feel is best for you and your tenants. I respect that a lot. Thank you for sharing your expertise.

I'm finding this a very hotly-contested topic on the forums and do not mean to judge either way on what people decide. I am merely interested in how many landlords have decided RedZone or similar products create enough of a sense of distrust that landlords have felt it necessary to ban their use.

I work in the privacy law profession RL and with that have a very strong personal opinion with regards to privacy rights. In SL, I struggle with where to draw lines that impinge on the freedoms of residents on the grid. The choice we make effects a lot of people on our sims and I do not want to have a knee-jerk response. The expertise and opinions of fellow landlords is greatly valued.

 

Kind regards,

Ofelia

[Darren Scorpio]

I have already said enough on this issue but let me just tell you this. About a month ago on the sim I rent there were hardly any vacant plots but since the start of this debate and the emergence of the Greenzone HUD the sim has remained at about 50% vacancy because one resident there is using Redzone. 

 

On another note I truly respect the estate owners who have chosen to ban such tools from their sims, it shows a high level of professionalism and integrity, just the kind of people I would rent from. 

[Yanni Hinterland]

"I own 3 residential sims (that I use an alt to manage) and any device that intrudes on the privacy of our renters is banned, including redzone and others.  Its hard to enforce without being there 24/7, but doing our best.  So far, the residents have all been happy not to have to worry about it.

What I have found is that I've lost renters since the whole debacle began - with the residents just vanishing from the grid entirely.  My guess is they may have been alts that got outted and given up on, due to the timing.  In fact, I'm starting to ponder what else to do with the land because of it.  I wonder if other land owners have experienced this?"

 

Yes, I am losing almost half my sim tier revenue over this whole debacle!  The renter that is leaving is not a copybotter but an avid supporter of redzone for the protection of his merchandise.  I do trust that he is not one to misuse a product as that but I simply cant have even the perception of invasion of privacy on my sim.  Privacy is one thing I had promised my residents long ago.  As well I dont want our market to be affected by all the controversy either.

 

[Casey Pelous]

 

Gina Chrome wrote:

Actually, this is a great question. I own eight sims, residential and commercial. I use RedZone on my main sim and it has served us well. I have never received a complaint about any of my residents having or using RedZone themselves. But this topic does make me think that we need to look ahead and decide how we will handle it when it does happen.

I can tell you that I do not use the hud that came with the updated. I really do not care if people have alts. The only time I access RedZone is if someone has to be banned. I will also ban their alts. This has been a valuable tool for me. However, I do see how people could misuse the product.

Kind Regards,

Gina Chrome

---

Gina, I guess you also mention it in your covenant, not just on some obscure web site your potential and current tenants would never know to visit, right? Oh ....wait ....by then, your unit would have already harvested, without notice, their data and fed it to every other user of the system on the grid. That system that you say "could be" misused. The ethical thing, then, would be to mention it prominently in all your advertising, fully explaining the functions, so people can choose whether to even visit your sim. Since that system is such a good thing, that shouldn't be a problem. It's for their own good, after all.

 

[Eva Ryan]

In my personal opinion, anyone with a device or method to correlate alternate accounts (aside from one's own brain) would be summarily banned from my properties. It doesn't matter if the individual has good intentions or not, is ethical or not, or feels that he or she needs the device for protection. IP harvesting within SL clearly has only one use within SL, and that is to be abused. This is not in spirit of the TOS or the CS no matter how you dissect it.

The ends don't justify the means.

[Qie Niangao]

It's important to understand that there is no such thing as "responsible use" of any system such as Redzone.  That's because any individual's use of their personal copy of the device is irrelevant to damage it does by leaking private information into the database and from there into the network of other Redzone devices.  If ever once your Redzone detected an IP address of a previously unknown innocent who you never looked at and never considered banning, you've contaminated that person's Second Life for as long as Redzone is allowed to exist.

I can't pour benzene in the river and avoid culpability merely because my pets don't drink from it.

I'd also mention that the hit on marketability of Redzone-infested rentals may be tolerable at present, but when the viewers that filter media streams are in wide use, it will be nearly impossible to rent a location with Redzone installed -- except to other Redzone aficionados, perhaps, and good luck with that.

[Jami Price]

I think that the use of redzone( or other products of this nature) on a rental sim is like one of those seedy motels where the owner has spyholes drilled in the walls to peek at their guests while they get undressed.

[Innula Zenovka]

One of the many problems with these devices is that, as well as banning supposed alts and so forth, they also pass back information to the creator's offworld database, where he store his purported identifications.

This, remember, is someone who was recently trying to blackmail LL with the threat  that, if RedZone were banned, he would "privatize the RedZone service with a service that operates outside of SecondLife." (screenshots at the top of https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24746 ).

How comfortable are you with your tenants' and their guests' data being shared with someone like that?

[Henry Darkthief]

 

---

Ofelia Laval wrote:

Hi there ..

 

I'm wondering what fellow landlords have decided to do with regards to tenants use of RedZone on their residential sims. I'd like to hear from those who have chosen to ban it's use and from those who have not.  We occasionally have tenants complain a neighbor has RedZone and are trying to decide what our policy on the device should be. We really do not want to be SL "cops" and I do not mean to start a debate about this product. But, whether it is true or not, there is a perception that this product scans and can spy and I am thinking that perception may be impossible to overcome.

 

Thanks for being willing to share your experiences!

 

Best wishes,

Ofelia Laval

---

 

There are other security systems, such as Hippo, which do as good a job of security and privacy protection as Redzone or any of those other alt detectors do. And those systems are much cheaper, too.

I had thought of going into real estate at some point and I have actually been thinking on this subject. My decision, I will not allow any alt detecting device to be used at all. It will mean eviction without refund and will be in the lease and covenant.

If I get into real estate, that is.

[Gina Chrome]

It find it very interesting how people get so worked up over this. I have read all the different rantings that have been posted and there is always that nasty sarcastic tone to them. Unfortunately, it makes me discredit the post. I would also like to point out that there is really no need to act this way. I am the first to admit that maybe I need to look at the full capabilities or malice of the system. I would like to be educated on the system before being crucified for using it. I am also not the only sim or business owner to use this system. There has been at least 4000+ systems sold. Hmmm... Somebody must also be using it besides me.

[Gina Chrome]

"This, remember, is someone who was recently trying to blackmail LL with the threat  that, if RedZone were banned, he would "privatize the RedZone service with a service that operates outside of SecondLife." (screenshots at the top of https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24746 )."

This is very useful and thank you.

This however is not "How comfortable are you with your tenants' and their guests' data being shared with someone like that?"

[Ciaran Laval]

I will ban Redzone and all alt detecting services when I get time and I'll make it clear in my covenant and rental agreements. I had someone ask me about using an unnamed alt detection system before all this blew up and told them no, they were fine with that.

[Kabalyero Kidd]

Questions, does this RedZone thing limits itself to harvesting and linking copybotters and griefers?

Or, does it harvest and link everyone else's accounts regardless if they are copybotters/griefers or not?

:manvery-happy:

[deety Galicia]

Everybodys

[Eva Ryan]

Kabalyero, the RedZone system links everyone's account that it detects. If you have media on, and have been around SL for a while, chance are that you too have been detected, catagorized, and cross-referenced with any other alt that you may have. In addition, there is a good chance that the RedZone system has erroneuosly linked your account to someone that isn't you. While those that use RedZone feel that it's 100% effective, it's far from it and they will ban you from their estates, regions, or individual parcels based on that information should your account be linked with another account that's been tagged as a "griefer" or "copybotter" or even manually inputted as such for any reason what-so-ever.

[Denver Ghost]

 

---

Darren Scorpio wrote:

I have already said enough on this issue but let me just tell you this. About a month ago on the sim I rent there were hardly any vacant plots but since the start of this debate and the emergence of the Greenzone HUD the sim has remained at about 50% vacancy because one resident there is using Redzone. 

 

On another note

I truly respect the estate owners who have chosen to ban such tools from their sims, it shows a high level of professionalism and integrity, just the kind of people I would rent from. 

---

Thank you. All of the arguments from Rz users are fallacious. But the voyeurs just aren't worth arguing with. They find out soon enough when their businesses begin failing as the grid freefalls in spending and attendance.

 

[Gina Chrome]

After reading through many pages from https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-24746. GS Estates will no longer use RedZone and will update the covenant on all sims, banning its use.