PS3 Home or Minecraft?

[Tari Landar]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, as an artist, I am glad I have the skill to make more beautiful things. I don't know, however, if that is a good thing for SL as a whole. I suspect it is not. It is prettier now, but that hasn't attracted new users. 

 

Ebbe says he is going to "target" creators in the new SL -- to focus on us in some way. He says there will be inworld building tools as well. My wish for SL as a whole is for it to be known more as a place where anyone can create rather than a place where people can see how pretty my creations are. 

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I can understand why you believe the things you do, however I disagree that the "prettier now"  hasn't attracted new users. I truly believe it has.

 

ETA: The reason I believe that is has, is because it did for me. The old sl wasn't nearly as pretty, nor did it have as many users. The clunky nature of old sl, as I knew it, both in 04 and even 06, is what drew me away. "Pretty" is what kept me, and many people I have spoken to, around. Of course that's just anecdotal, but without that pretty, without the ability to create that pretty, no creator would really have the income they have now, including you and me.

New creators join sl all the time, new creations are presented all the time too. That is not a bad thing, in my opinion, for sl. The things we are able to create, and I use we as a collective term there even if some of us don't quite fit into that creator bubble quite so well, are better than they used to be. 

Some people seem to want sl to be more geared so that anyone can equally create. I'm not one of those folks, to be honest. I like the diversity. I like knowing sl is a palce where beautiful and amazing creations can be enjoyed by all, even if I'm not one of the folks who can make them.

[Perrie Juran]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, as an artist, I am glad I have the skill to make more beautiful things. I don't know, however, if that is a good thing for SL as a whole. I suspect it is not. It is prettier now, but that hasn't attracted new users. 

 

Ebbe says he is going to "target" creators in the new SL -- to focus on us in some way. He says there will be inworld building tools as well. My wish for SL as a whole is for it to be known more as a place where anyone can create rather than a place where people can see how pretty my creations are. 

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I don't have time now to say all I'd like to.

I was thinking about what I said about a 'level' playing field and may need to change my thinking because it is like complaining that life isn't fair.  I'm not really sure now.

But I do have to agree with you about the "pretty shineys."  They haven't attracted more users.  At least not yet.

One reason why is simply this.  Computer power.

Five years ago I could run SL on a T-21 IBM Thinkpad with 256mb of RAM and the poorest excuse for a graphics chip you can think of.

Today I have almost 20 times that much RAM on my machine.   And more than double the processing power.  And I can point you to Threads right now today in this Forum where people are being told 4 Gigs of RAM ain't enough for SL. 

Now that really makes me wonder.

And for all the pretty shineys I still have not seen a SIM that equals Alpha & Omega Point or The Swan or Nemo with the exception of maybe some temporary things done for the LEA.

[arton Rotaru]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, as an artist, I am glad I have the skill to make more beautiful things. I don't know, however, if that is a good thing for SL as a whole. I suspect it is not. It is prettier now, but that hasn't attracted new users. 

 

Ebbe says he is going to "target" creators in the new SL -- to focus on us in some way. He says there will be inworld building tools as well. My wish for SL as a whole is for it to be known more as a place where anyone can create rather than a place where people can see how pretty my creations are. 

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Perhaps there would be even less people around today, if it wouldn't be as pretty as it is now? Who knows? Moot point anyway, as this whole comparision between a success story and a failure.

You can make a 1 on 1 copy of Minecraft, name it Mycraft, or what ever. Would it be as successful as Minecraft? No! Because it isn't Minecraft. Success in such a dimension isn't predictable, or we would only have success storys all over the world.

 

[Parrish Ashbourne]

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arton Rotaru wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, as an artist, I am glad I have the skill to make more beautiful things. I don't know, however, if that is a good thing for SL as a whole. I suspect it is not. It is prettier now, but that hasn't attracted new users. 

 

Ebbe says he is going to "target" creators in the new SL -- to focus on us in some way. He says there will be inworld building tools as well. My wish for SL as a whole is for it to be known more as a place where anyone can create rather than a place where people can see how pretty my creations are. 

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Perhaps there would be even less people around today, if it wouldn't be as pretty as it is now? Who knows? Moot point anyway, as this whole comparision between a success story and a failure.

You can make a 1 on 1 copy of Minecraft, name it Mycraft, or what ever. Would it be as successful as Minecraft? No! Because it isn't Minecraft. Success in such a dimension isn't predictable, or we would only have success storys all over the world.

 

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Second life has been in decline the entire time mesh has been around.  The problem isen't mesh, it's the mesh tool are all aimed at professionals, there's no mesh tool aimed at just building for fun.  Second life use to be all about "build your own world" now it's more and more just come and shop, as fewer people can build good mesh.  This might be a moot point for mesh builders but it's not a moot point for every one else who like to build in SL. 

There's an easy way to test this,  have LL make SL mesh only with out an inworld build tool, and see how many people are left.

 

[arton Rotaru]

Still a moot point, though.

At least your last sentence should say "and see how many creators are left".

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Someone at some point had to upload textures, yes.  Just as someone at LL had to code SL into being and had to create library textures, and sky and water textures. But before sculpts, ANY USER could do 100% of his creating inworld. I did, for quite a while in fact. I would bet that this was the case with most builders. 

Which is what Celestiall said.

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This statement, even if ignore the issue of creating textures, is only true for the creation of objects like houses and furniture. Animation makers could never do their work in-world to my knowledge; neither could modern skin makers and clothing makers, even with system clothing.

For many things I can't see the benefit of working in-world anyway. For a house or other structure that has a direct connection to the land yes, but I don't see a real difference between someone creating the sofa I bought in Blender or Maya and that person working "in-world" but in isolation on a sky platform while ignoring communication, which is pretty common practice for builders if their profiles are any indication.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Second Life evidently has decided to go in the direction of Sony's HOME virtual world, with beautiful graphics, professionally made content, and lots of inworld games.

No more clunky inworld build tools like with Minecraft.

Except HOME is closing and Minecraft was just sold for $2,500,000,000.

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I'll just say this. But....... HOME didn't have us.

[irihapeti]

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arton Rotaru wrote:

Still a moot point, though.

At least your last sentence should say "and see how many creators are left".

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if was a mesh only world with inworld tools then about 10,000. More most likely

if was a mesh only world without any tools then about 500. Less more likely

[Pamela Galli]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, as an artist, I am glad I have the skill to make more beautiful things. I don't know, however, if that is a good thing for SL as a whole. I suspect it is not. It is prettier now, but that hasn't attracted new users. 

 

Ebbe says he is going to "target" creators in the new SL -- to focus on us in some way. He says there will be inworld building tools as well. My wish for SL as a whole is for it to be known more as a place where anyone can create rather than a place where people can see how pretty my creations are. 

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I don't have time now to say all I'd like to.

I was thinking about what I said about a 'level' playing field and may need to change my thinking because it is like complaining that life isn't fair.  I'm not really sure now.

But I do have to agree with you about the "pretty shineys."  They haven't attracted more users.  At least not yet.

One reason why is simply this.  Computer power.

Five years ago I could run SL on a T-21 IBM Thinkpad with 256mb of RAM and the poorest excuse for a graphics chip you can think of.

Today I have almost 20 times that much RAM on my machine.   And more than double the processing power.  And I can point you to Threads right now today in this Forum where people are being told 4 Gigs of RAM ain't enough for SL. 

Now that really makes me wonder.

And for all the pretty shineys I still have not seen a SIM that equals Alpha & Omega Point or The Swan or Nemo with the exception of maybe some temporary things done for the LEA.

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Among the words you will almost never hear from me is "not fair!" :-)  I personally have done well both pre and post mesh, for one main reason: I have worked many long hard hours; whatever it took, I did. If I fail at something, it will not be because I did not work hard enough. And after raising small children and teaching in public schools, nothing has seemed "too hard", although Blender has come close.

My point is not about making playing fields level but about what kind of platform SL2 will be.  As Parrish said: "Second Life used to be all about 'build your own world' now it's more just come and shop" . There are benefits to that, but there is also a cost.  The debate is about which is greater.  Or maybe it is a wash. But the costs are real. 

 

 

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Tari Landar wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, as an artist, I am glad I have the skill to make more beautiful things. I don't know, however, if that is a good thing for SL as a whole. I suspect it is not. It is prettier now, but that hasn't attracted new users. 

 

Ebbe says he is going to "target" creators in the new SL -- to focus on us in some way. He says there will be inworld building tools as well. My wish for SL as a whole is for it to be known more as a place where anyone can create rather than a place where people can see how pretty my creations are. 

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I can understand why you believe the things you do, however I disagree that the "prettier now"  hasn't attracted new users. I truly believe it has.

 

ETA: The reason I believe that is has, is because it did for me. The old sl wasn't nearly as pretty, nor did it have as many users. The clunky nature of old sl, as I knew it, both in 04 and even 06, is what drew me away. "Pretty" is what kept me, and many people I have spoken to, around. Of course that's just anecdotal, but without that pretty, without the ability to create that pretty, no creator would really have the income they have now, including you and me.

New creators join sl all the time, new creations are presented all the time too. That is not a bad thing, in my opinion, for sl. The things we are able to create, and I use we as a collective term there even if some of us don't quite fit into that creator bubble quite so well, are better than they used to be. 

Some people seem to want sl to be more geared so that anyone can equally create. I'm not one of those folks, to be honest. I like the diversity. I like knowing sl is a palce where beautiful and amazing creations can be enjoyed by all, even if I'm not one of the folks who can make them.

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I agree with what Pamela's said, though I may not understand her position ;-).

Concurrency has been declining for five years, during which SL has gotten prettier. Weigh that evidence against your anecdotes, Tari. I do that all the time and that's what has convinced me that I'm atypical or just plain weird. I can't and won't argue causality, the world outside SL is changing more rapidly than the world within. We can't ignore that.

In RL, we don't get a choice of whether to join it. Our parents make that decision and we're stuck with it. And RL has ample inducements to ensure a steady supply of new residents for the foreseable future. In fact, across the world we see efforts to stem the tide of new arrivals! And because resources are finite, we fight over them.

It's far different in virtual worlds. People choose to be born here and can exit when they wish. Absent an evolutionary imperitive to enter, the creators and residents of virtual worlds must attract and retain life from outside. Failure to do so means the end of the world. Resources are proportionally, or even exponentially driven by population. If we attract 2x more people, we can have 3x more stuff! We really must think of others to secure our happiness here.

Pamela appears to be thinking outside her perspective. I try to do that. I do not know the recipe for a successful virtual world, but I will not be surprised if I don't like the ingredients. Should the recipe be unpalatable to me (as is the case for commercial radio and TV), I'll leave without a fuss and find something else. I always do.

[Perrie Juran]

 

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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<snip>

My point is not about making playing fields level but about what kind of platform SL2 will be.  As Parrish said: "Second Life used to be all about 'build your own world' now it's more just come and shop" . There are benefits to that, but there is also a cost.  The debate is about which is greater.  Or maybe it is a wash. But the costs are real. 

 

 

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Yes, I know we all have our opinions.  And it is probably a multitude of reasons why growth in SL has appeared at best to be 'stagnant.'  Mesh does change SL.  When I started pretty much all of us had to learn at least some building/editing basics.  But today I know people who have never created a prim.  They learn how to move/position things and now so much content has resize scripts all they need to do is click and click.

To me really right now the biggest joke in SL is 'materials.'  Not because materials are bad.  But because the cart is in front of the horse.  The better the World looks, the more cartoonish our Avatars look when viewed against the World.  What good really is that nice furniture if when you sit on it the Ava's shape distorts in all kinds of wierd ways?

For some unknown reason to us LL has always refused to do anything about the Avatar.  And people were asking questions about it even back in 2003 !

When Ebbe talks about the new world being creator-centric (by which I think what he means is merchant-centric), I really think that translates into meaning a consumer-centric world.  So yes, it will be very different in that way.

 

 

 

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

 

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Perrie, that's just adorable, though the bedpan is best left out of sight.

[Urzul]

minecraft,cube.

how to build in sl,prim,the default shape,script,inworld.

option,buy fullperm sculpt,mesh,inworld.

learn how to make those using other program,offworld.upload.

animation,sound,texture are made offworld.upload.

Many player dont build at all and play whit what people build and explore.

I am not the older player,but sculpt and mesh was here before me ,and i still build and learn many thing.

In time i may learn to make mesh,and if i have never came in sl,no clue of what was a mesh or script.

then it nice place to learn.

 

[Vivienne Schell]

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Tari Landar wrote:

SL has never truly been a completely or even mostly level playground for creation.

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Oh uh. And where does all the content come from? Rezzables, attachments, textures, scripts...sums up to millions of assets. Of course SL has always and will always be a completely level playground for creation.

And it´s not only the visuals. Running a club is an expression of creativity as well.

The difference to Minecraft is that Minecraft is perfectly designed to be an outlet of the average folks visualisation skill and phantasies, while SL (lately since Mesh imports) is designed to be a showcase platform for hobbyists failing to be online game design professionals. That´s why Minecraft is worth 2.5 Billions while SL is worth nothing.

Instead of favoring all kinds of format imports which didn´t really help anyones success (Sl is in deciline since 2009!) LL should have improved the in-world tools with native formats.

I have no idea how to fix the misconceptual mess, but I agree with those who predict a total failure to any VR which exclusively is based on professional (or worse, hobbyist) off-world creativity.

[Vivienne Schell]

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arton Rotaru wrote:

Modeling software is designed to make building 3D content as fast and comfortable as it can be. Something which a platform like Second Life never can provide.

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Eh. Blender? Gawd.

And modelling software never can replace talent. A talented prim builder can do stellar artwork compared to someone who knows Blender, but isn´t able to draw a logic geometry.

While the SL editing tools are stellar usability artwork compared to some...ahem..."modelling software".

[arton Rotaru]

Talent is a given, no matter of the tools.

 

[arton Rotaru]

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Vivienne Schell wrote:

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Tari Landar wrote:

SL has never truly been a completely or even mostly level playground for creation.

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Oh uh. And where does all the content come from? Rezzables, attachments, textures, scripts...sums up to millions of assets. Of course SL has always and will always be a completely level playground for creation.

And it´s not only the visuals. Running a club is an expression of creativity as well.

The difference to Minecraft is that Minecraft is perfectly designed to be an outlet of the average folks visualisation skill and phantasies, while SL (lately since Mesh imports) is designed to be a showcase platform for hobbyists failing to be online game design professionals. That´s why Minecraft is worth 2.5 Billions while SL is worth nothing.

Instead of favoring all kinds of format imports which didn´t really help anyones success (Sl is in deciline since 2009!) LL should have improved the in-world tools with native formats.

I have no idea how to fix the misconceptual mess, but I agree with those who predict a total failure to any VR which exclusively is based on professional (or worse, hobbyist) off-world creativity.

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Sounds like the expression of creativity running a club hasn't done anything to anyones success either then. Maybe LL should limit the possibilties how to run a club, to make SL more successful to anyone....

[Vivienne Schell]

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arton Rotaru wrote:

Talent is a given, no matter of the tools.

 

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Probably, but tools have to serve talent and not talent the tools. Otherwise = Fail. Reality check: SL/LL became proftable and successful while charging (kinda absurd) prices for their tool, while Blender still remains a freebie cause no one on the planet would pay a single cent for it.

 

[Vivienne Schell]

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arton Rotaru wrote:

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Maybe LL should limit the possibilties how to run a club, to make SL more successful to anyone...

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It´s a matter of tools and talent, too. The club owner relies on things made by people with inadequate tools while being forced to use inadequate tools for his special activity. LL failed to improve the native toolset and never optimized them for the specific needs of an online VR. They had 12 years to do do, but all they did was making things even more complicated, more abstract, more absurd, more off-world based and more laggy.

[arton Rotaru]

Ah, you think once Blender is worth paying for, it won't be open source anymore? Anyhow, I don't know why you are bashing Blender? If you don't like it, don't use it. There are plenty of other options worth paying for. And  if you can do stellar buildings in-world, great. Those will still be successful as well.

Blaming SL's delcine on freeing up the possibilities of content creation is as ridiculous as blaming it on club owners, or anybody else. SL had it's hype, it's peak, and it's deline. Somehting that happens to almost anything comparable.

Now LL is trying something new, with the Next Gen Platform. Nobody knows what it is, but one thing is for sure, to have a chance to be successful, it won't be Minecraft-ish, and it won't be Second Life 2.0. To be successful you have to have a great idea, and the manpower to pull it off. And on top of that, that portion of luck it takes to make it huge.

[Vivienne Schell]

Blender is exactly worth what is is worth compared to truly usable and truly pro adopted modelling software. Dot.

Obviouly this minor, clunky, almost unusable monster with a learning curve higher as the mount everest (even 100 times steeper as SL) is the choice for the majority of SL Mesh importers. Why so? Because it´s so "fantastic"? Certainly not. It´s a freebie. For some reasons.

What LL plans there, I don´t know. I agree with you there. And I am very sceptical. I only hope that Altberg will not waste Linden Lab resources on just another DOA wet techie fantasy.

 

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Vivienne Schell wrote:

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Tari Landar wrote:

SL has never truly been a completely or even mostly level playground for creation.

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Oh uh. And where does all the content come from? Rezzables, attachments, textures, scripts...sums up to millions of assets. Of course SL has always and will always be a completely level playground for creation.

And it´s not only the visuals. Running a club is an expression of creativity as well.

The difference to Minecraft is that Minecraft is perfectly designed to be an outlet of the average folks visualisation skill and phantasies, while SL (lately since Mesh imports) is designed to be a showcase platform for hobbyists failing to be online game design professionals. That´s why Minecraft is worth 2.5 Billions while SL is worth nothing.

Instead of favoring all kinds of format imports which didn´t really help anyones success (Sl is in deciline since 2009!) LL should have improved the in-world tools with native formats.

I have no idea how to fix the misconceptual mess, but I agree with those who predict a total failure to any VR which exclusively is based on professional (or worse, hobbyist) off-world creativity.

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You seem to be making a distinction between "average folks" (by which I suppose you mean amateurs), professionals and "hobbyists" (which you seem to place somewhere in between the two), when actually the three could very well all be one in the same, at different points in time.  In fact, I can't imagine how a person even becomes a professional without first being an amateur, who sometimes takes that activity on as a hobby, before becoming proficient enough to profit from it.  It's simply a matter of skill level.

What SL has done rather successfully, and which LL's new platform needs to do even better, is cater to all skill levels.  SL has done this by increasingly making it possible to import things created outside of SL.  I can't imagine how wonderfully successful SL would have been should LL have decided to limit creation to that which could be found in the Library.  Oh, yeah... I'd love to see those fabulous things created over the years, around in which we could all walk like ducks.  I'm sure that would have done wonders for retention.

All of these mesh-will-be-the-downfall-of-SL arguments are eerily reminiscent of the very things that were said about the introduction of sculpties.  All sculpties did was make things possible that previously were not... just as mesh is now doing.  Rather than blaming the ability to import outside creations for the decline in SL concurrency, I'm more inclined to believe that it is just that ability which has kept it from being worse than it could have been.

...Dres

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Parrish Ashbourne wrote:

Second life has been in decline the entire time mesh has been around.  The problem isen't mesh, it's the mesh tool are all aimed at professionals, there's no mesh tool aimed at just building for fun.  Second life use to be all about "build your own world" now it's more and more just come and shop, as fewer people can build good mesh.  This might be a moot point for mesh builders but it's not a moot point for every one else who like to build in SL. 

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None of this makes any sense to me whatsoever.  Why in the world is it bad for SL, and specifically SL creators, to have more and more people coming into SL to shop?  Seems to me like this is exactly what a person, who sells what they create in SL, would want.

Why do you say mesh creation tools are aimed at professionals?  Anyone of any skill level can learn to use them and eventually become proficient at doing so.  It's really no different in concept than the building tools in SL... no one without prior experience would be able to waltz into SL one day and create a masterpiece the next.  It takes practice to build something "good" in SL, just as it takes practice to create something good with mesh creation software... but, anyone driven to do so, with enough talent, can certainly do so, if they choose to put the time and effort into learning how.

 

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Parrish Ashbourne also wrote:

There's an easy way to test this,  have LL make SL mesh only with out an inworld build tool, and see how many people are left.

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This would prove nothing, simply because LL is not doing away with the inworld building tools and, as far as I can tell, seem to be wanting to actually improve them for their next platform.

...Dres

 

[Vivienne Schell]

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All of these mesh-will-be-the-downfall-of-SL arguments are eerily reminiscent of the very things that were said about the introduction of sculpties.

 

Well, both import formats did not and will not stop the slow decline of SL: Since the introdution of sculpts and mesh imports SL declined steadily. At best it stagnates since a year or so. Anyone who tells me that these import formats helped the success or growth of SL as a platform must be victim of some fata morgana. While SL boomed before they come up with these nice looking but online VR incompatible import formats (while compatibility demands more than just a technical specification). The facts don´t lie.

I don´t say that Mesh and Sculpt imports are the downfall of SL, but in my opinion there is only one reasonable way to make an online VR like SL grow, which is providing and improving native in-world formats and native in-world tools by design and functionality. Minecraft and Blue Mars both proved it in any thinkable way. Linden Lab was on the right track but unfortunately someone there decided to leave this track - probably because some wishful thinking led someone to the conclusion that some major corporations would contribute their modelled corporate buildings this way.

[Aethelwine]

One recurring premise in this thread seems to be the inability to create in world. For most people's purposes tools like mesh studio, sculpt maker and anypose do all that they need. Tools like avsitter have made adding animatiions so much easier than in the past. If arguments are that linden lab should be providing these then I am not going to strongly disagree but I would point out that doing that would be unfair on the creators of these tools. Maybe Linden Lab could negotiate a deal to providwe the tools free to all users but it is not like any of them cost a lot in real money ... at most the cost of couple of glasses of wine.

For me sl is essier to build in and the things we can build better all the time.

The only part of the new user ecperience more complicated than before and imo far more important when thinking about retaining new users is all the additiinal complexity involved in wearing mesh clothes and attachments and working with mesh avatars and appliers.