Skill Gaming Policy Thread

[Phil Deakins]

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

It is a game. Sports are a game also. Football games, Olympic games, etc.

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Just a little comment here. Something is only a game if it has gameplay. E.g. football has gameplay and is therefore a game. Running (your Olympic games example) has no gameplay and is not a game. It's a sport.

Some things are both a sport and a game; e.g. football.

[Yingzi Xue]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Sorina Garrigus wrote:

It is a game. Sports are a game also. Football games, Olympic games, etc.

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Just a little comment here. Something is only a game if it has gameplay. E.g. football has gameplay and is therefore a game. Running (your Olympic games example) has no gameplay and is not a game. It's a sport.

Some things are both a sport and a game; e.g. football.

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Excerpt from the wagering policy:

 

It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:

1. Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner,

   OR

2. Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,

AND provide a payout in

1. Linden Dollars (L$)

   OR

2. Any real-world currency or thing of value.

 

What does "wagering" mean according to this policy?

The term "wagering" applies to any covered game or activity (i.e. game of chance, sports betting) in which a user contributes Linden dollars (or real-world money or things of value), whether into a pot, at a table game, at a house game, for purchase of a card (such as Bingo), or in any way risks Linden dollars based on whether an event may or may not occur, such as whether a team will win a sporting event, or whether Barack Obama will win the Democratic primary.

 

Although this scope may be open to interpretation not to cover in-world sporting events, I think it's a stretch to think they didn't mean any sporting event, in-world or real-world.  The very act of adding money to a pot, table game, house game, Bingo (i.e. Zyngo and the countless copycats)... all of these things were banned years ago with the wagering policy.

[OhanaGaming]

I sit and question a few issues and things. They are now putting a ban or restriction on those 10 states listed after so long.

1: Does this mean child avatars will not be allowed over to the new gaming sims?

2: Why all of sudden the major change and giving such a short amount of time due to those who own a gaming sim?

3: Why those 10 states that are listed?

If the reasoning is due to it is not legal for online gambling in those states then ask yourself is it legal for escorting in certain states as we have that in sl. Putting a restriction on certain people of not beling able to enter the new gaming areas after so long of allowing it for everyone.

1: It is going to make it harder for those who own a gaming sim on making any type of income from it to possibly be able to pay for the fees that are included in this new update. 

2: The  number of people in the group is going to drop due to the restriction.

This all is going to make a major change in sl and out come of those who enter sl now may drop due to this. I know there were several people who made a income from gambling to support RL or to have some type of income to be able to purchase things they want or need in sl. Due to alot of people are not willing to load real cash into the game. This is going to force some to find a new way to get that income or not enter sl no more. This is something that i am sure alot sit and question or ponder on. As i am one of the owners of a gaming sim and with this change i feel it unfair and hopes things change before this becomes final, because we were a family based sim were all were able to come enjoy themselves. 

[Dahlea Milena]

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Linden Lab wrote:

It appears that our response may have been taken out of context.

A game of skill is defined

as "a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. "

Thank you,

 

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LL, since you use the word 'AND" to connect statements 1 thru 4, & not "OR", does that mean all 4 must be in place to mean a game is considered 'skill gaming'? 

Also, what about something like 7 Seas Tournaments & prize givers (which often have the option to pay out L$ as well as objects)? Will this apply to them also?

[Yingzi Xue]

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OhanaGaming wrote:

I sit and question a few issues and things. They are now putting a ban or restriction on those 10 states listed after so long.

1: Does this mean child avatars will not be allowed over to the new gaming sims?

2: Why all of sudden the major change and giving such a short amount of time due to those who own a gaming sim?

3: Why those 10 states that are listed?

If the reasoning is due to it is not legal for online gambling in those states then ask yourself is it legal for escorting in certain states as we have that in sl. Putting a restriction on certain people of not beling able to enter the new gaming areas after so long of allowing it for everyone.

1: It is going to make it harder for those who own a gaming sim on making any type of income from it to possibly be able to pay for the fees that are included in this new update. 

2: The  number of people in the group is going to drop due to the restriction.

This all is going to make a major change in sl and out come of those who enter sl now may drop due to this. I know there were several people who made a income from gambling to support RL or to have some type of income to be able to purchase things they want or need in sl. Due to alot of people are not willing to load real cash into the game. This is going to force some to find a new way to get that income or not enter sl no more. This is something that i am sure alot sit and question or ponder on. As i am one of the owners of a gaming sim and with this change i feel it unfair and hopes things change before this becomes final, because we were a family based sim were all were able to come enjoy themselves. 

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So you think it's unfair that LL is finally moving on gambling, despite the fact it was banned in 2007... but you don't think it's unfair to make profits on gambling, a banned activity.  LL has done little to enforce the existing policy of wagering and the vetting of games of skill in general.  It was only a matter of time before the cash cow ended.  If you knowingly went against the gambling ban (which it sounds like you did), then you're getting off pretty easy in my opinion, having to conform instead of being outright banned or worse for gambling activities in SL.  The announcement was on July 9th.  Twenty two days is a decent time to get your ducks in a row (i.e. close shop, change your business model).  If you relied solely on gambling as a source of SL income... well, I guess that's unfortunate, but it isn't LL's fault you made a choice to run a gambling outfit.

I do think it's LL's fault they've waited so long to enforce the rules on gaming, but really we have no say in what they do.

There's an old saying... If you want to dance, you have to pay the fiddler.  Hem hawing and hand wringing isn't going to change LL's mind on its new skill gaming policy, which is really just an extension of existing policies laid out in more detail with a vetting process.

[Leslea Aldrin]

I rent on a general sim, and have a couple games -  Zyngo and Gemmy... which *can* be games where ppl win lindens, however, I have them set for free- one of them requires one linden to play which is immediately returned. Do I need to get the license as I do not make any lindens, the users don't make any lindens, and they are just there for fun?

 

Thanks,

 

Leslea Aldrin

[Xavier10 Albert]

all games that takes and gives LS must license
too easy to freeplay and change later lol

[Innula Zenovka]

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Leslea Aldrin wrote:

I rent on a general sim, and have a couple games -  Zyngo and Gemmy... which *can* be games where ppl win lindens, however, I have them set for free- one of them requires one linden to play which is immediately returned. Do I need to get the license as I do not make any lindens, the users don't make any lindens, and they are just there for fun?

 

Thanks,

 

Leslea Aldrin

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According to an answer from LL earlier in the thread, if the game permits pay-to-play, then it's covered by the policy even if pay-to-play is turned off.   The fact you've set it to play for free doesn't matter.

You need to contact the creator, I think, and see if he is now offering an update that doesn't include pay-to-play as an option (that's what the maker of Greedy did). 

[WDL Bayn]

Hello LL,

One question I have here regarding point 4) © (i) (1) from the program application :

Under limited circumstances, an Operator Account will be allowed to
make Linden Dollar payments to Second Life residents who provide
services to an Operator for the management and operation of its Skill
Gaming Region

This includes tier payments and/or games purchase ?

Thank you,

WDL Bayn

[Talevin Whelan]

A few quick questions, and I apologize if this is already answered somewhere in the thread... if a game meets all the criteria of a "Skill Game" except for "3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars;", is it still subject to the new Skill Gaming policy?  For example, if a skill game that permits or requires payment in Linden Dollars to play awards an in-world prize, such as an outfit or piece of furniture, instead of money, would that game require an application process and fees to create and/or operate? 

Would such prizes require certain permissions (such as being copy/non-transfer)?  If the prize was a gift card that could only be redeemed at a single store for in-world items, would that be allowed without the application process?

Thanks for your time!

-Talevin

[Votarn Torvalar]

This reply tells us nothing. It seems   It is unreasonable to put the onus on us for determining whether a Contest board or sploder is skill or chance,  Supposing we decided Skill  and then LLL tries to take action against us because they dont agree with out decision.. What happens then? 

In fact LL must be totally aware of the general type of sploder and contest board in general use. It should surely be possible to say whether LL regard  the awarding of a prize awarded for best costume in a competition qualifies as a game of chance or skill or neither.  Similarly, they could give specific guidance on the sploder that pays out from a pot which users conttribute to. Are they legal or not?

[Votarn Torvalar]

good point...  thank you. for pointing this out.  If the y dont pay to enter the contest then it clearly does not fall within the skill game definition ..

[Votarn Torvalar]

In fact it seems quite clear that sploders as in general use now, will be illegal outside permitted areas without licence , whether considered chance or skill  .. Do you agree?

[ObviousAltIsObvious]

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Votarn Torvalar wrote:

In fact it seems quite clear that sploders as in general use now, will be illegal outside permitted areas without licence , whether considered chance or skill  .. Do you agree?

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the pay-to-play sploders in use now are already breaking the old gambling policy from 2007. they only stay around because the poeple using them like them, so don't report them.

when the gambling policy first came out, there were some "skill based" sploders that made the entrants do things like race to catch the prizes, but i haven't seen one like that in a very long time.

 

 

 

[Votarn Torvalar]

so to be absolutely clear.. contest boards the do nit require any sort of fee to enter,  remain outside the new rules and therefore completely 'legal' ?

[Coby Foden]

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Votarn Torvalar wrote:

 

In fact LL must be totally aware of the general type of sploder and contest board in general use. It should surely be possible to say whether LL regard  the awarding of a prize awarded for best costume in a competition qualifies as a game of chance or skill or neither.  Similarly, they could give specific guidance on the sploder that pays out from a pot which users conttribute to. Are they legal or not?

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For some activities it indeed can be difficult to determine will it be approved or not, for some activities it is fairly easy by reading the documents provided.

Let's look at sploders. I quote from two documents what is written there:

Linden Lab Official - Second Life Skill Gaming Approved Participants 

Gambling is strictly prohibited in Second Life and operating, or participating in, a game of chance that provides a Linden Dollar payout is a violation of our Terms of Service.

..and:

Linden Lab Official - Policy Regarding Wagering in Second Life 

It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:

• Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner,

OR

• Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,

AND provide a payout in

• Linden Dollars (L$)

OR

•Any real-world currency or thing of value.

 

So, what do you think the sploders are? A game of chance or a game of skill?

Conditions:

- If sploders are game of chance then they are strictly prohibited.

- If sploders are game of skill then they are allowed once they are licensed.

To conclude:

It is clear, without any doubt, that sploders are a game of chance. There is no skill needed to play them.

Thus sploders are strictly prohibited.

(Well one has to find them to play, know how to pay it and have the patience to wait until the timer has run its course. But that really is not enough to declare sploders as a game of skill, is it? They are purely games of chance.)

[Innula Zenovka]

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Votarn Torvalar wrote:

so to be absolutely clear.. contest boards the do nit require any sort of fee to enter,  remain outside the new rules and therefore completely 'legal' ?

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According to Linden Lab Official: Second Life Skill Gaming FAQ, 

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“

Skill Game”

refers to any game: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law.

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So, if the contest board doesn't require or permit a fee to enter, it looks like it's not covered by the new rules.

[Votarn Torvalar]

yes Thank  you.. that is my conclusion.. Thanks for all reples to my posts.

 

[Sapphire Hotaling]

And this brings up my question on racing in SL.  There is not a required buy in, it is purely optional.  One can race and does not have to 'pay to play'.  So, does racing indeed fall under this most confusing, ill-worded policy? I would love to see a Linden respond to this, and not just those of us residents who are attempting to decipher the poorly written policy.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Sapphire Hotaling wrote:

And this brings up my question on racing in SL.  There is not a required buy in, it is purely optional.  One can race and does not have to 'pay to play'.  So, does racing indeed fall under this most confusing, ill-worded policy? I would love to see a Linden respond to this, and not just those of us residents who are attempting to decipher the poorly written policy.

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You can't expect anyone, including LL, to give a firm answer based on a general question like that.   What sort of race is it?  Avatars running round a track, or riding vehicles, or what?   What's the buy in, and what sort of prizes are there, and how do you win them?   If it's genuinely not pay to play -- that is, you organise races and put up prizes, and you've got a tip jar for people who want to contribute to your expenses running the sim and the races. but you don't need to contribute to join a race and win a prize -- then I don't see how it's covered by the new policy.

[Yingzi Xue]

There may be a gray area with the wagering policy which prohibits payout in Lindens or a thing of value. It also talks about chance. Who can argue that racing doesn't have an element of chance? On those two alone one could come to the conclusion that racing may not be allowed if a prize of any kind is awarded.

[Sorina Garrigus]

The Oxford defintion of "Game"

"A form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck."

Sports also have rules just like board, computer, or card games even the simple ones. For example in a 100 meter dash I found rules.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/132087-what-rules-100m-sprint/

Sports are games as well. They are just a physical based game. But within Second Life they would be more comparable to a traditional video game. Sports clearly are games of skill so they would fall under a skill game policy until LL clears up this mess of course.

[Yingzi Xue]

Let's not forget that receiving a prize or dollar amount for a competitive or chance activity is really gambling. In my opinion the wagering policy and the skill gaming policy overlap for a one-two punch. If it feels like gambling or chance and there is a reward for activity it most likely falls under sport, chance or skill.

[Sorina Garrigus]

"Although this scope may be open to interpretation not to cover in-world sporting events, I think it's a stretch to think they didn't mean any sporting event, in-world or real-world.  The very act of adding money to a pot, table game, house game, Bingo (i.e. Zyngo and the countless copycats)... all of these things were banned years ago with the wagering policy"

That policy does cover sports betting which is clearly against TOS. But that policy also allows games of skill. The new policy on game of skill do not mesh with the old one. It definitely does cover in world sporting game events. They are a game of skill. And if competitors pay in or win money they it would fall under the skill game policy. Basically in world virtual sports is like playing Electronic arts sports games where people pay to compete and win money.

Also games of skill were not banned. One can argue one way or another if games inspired by Slingo are games of skill or not but the fact is LL actively allowed and profited off them for 7 years. By doing so their actions and inactions guided how the skill game industry developed in SL. If LL banned Zyngo as you say you will have to ask them why they allowed it and profited off it for 7 years while other games that were more skill based were pushed out of favor by players.

It sucks but this policy until LL throws out some special exemptions covers games of skill across the board unless all states and countries will allow for pay, play and win online race/sports games.

[Sorina Garrigus]

"So you think it's unfair that LL is finally moving on gambling, despite the fact it was banned in 2007..."

 

They are moving in on skill gaming. Wagering on games of chance were addressed back in 2007. It is affecting all games of skill if there is a way to pay in to enter and money to win. This mess is affecting content in SL on a MUCH wider scale than you seem to be thinking. Additionally keep in mind LL is not cracking down on things hidden in the shadowy corners of SL. They allowed and practically guided the skill game industry by their action and inaction. They have a heavy hand in the mess that everyone is now dealing with when it comes to all kinds of games where there is a winner that can win money. Hell this clearly affects something as purely skill based as a chess tournament.