Copy / Transfer ?

[Teagan Tobias]

I have a pretty simple question for Merchants. In World when I am looking at something that I like, and try to purchase it, the “right click pay” window gives me no information about what I am trying to buy, only the amount to pay and the name of what ever it is. Many times the ad board is also devoid of helpful information about permissions or layers. Many shops when I right click pay I can see what I am purchasing and all its parts. I can see that the top of an outfit is on the jacket, shirt and undershirt layers or just one layer, and if it is copy or not. Are you relaying on the new players that don't understand permissions to buy your items, or are there so few people like myself in SL with little money to spend and care about what they are spending it on.

What is the thought behind, give them a pretty photo to look at and a price and no information? Because for me, I just move on to another store. And that is the best part of SL, there is always another store, but I was just wondering the motivation behind the trend to little or no information to sell a product.

And the reason for the subject of Copy / Transfer is that I don't use no copy items unless they are only 2 or 3 L$, and that is why I need the information before I will buy something.

[beanster Potato]

Yes im annoyed with this too and unfortunately its only going to get worse as almost all merchants use scripted vendors now which might be nice for updates and redeliveries but as a costumer you cant see what you're actually buying that way. Im probably one of the few who dont use scripted vendors for that reason + of course the extra lag that brings to a region, especially when you have 1000+ vendors. Luckily rigged mesh comes (or at least should come) with free demo versions so you're still able to see what you buy that way but its not always mesh clothing that we buy ^^

[Trinity Yazimoto]

its not forcelly a pb about scripted vendors.

i use scripted vendors BUT :

                             -- i put my items not boxed inside, so pp can edit the vendor and see what they are buying (every parts and even on wich layers are the layer parts)

                             -- all my vendorpics have explicitely : the name of the outfit, the price, the list of every parts included (i do not mention on which layers they are bec it would be too long) AND the perms.

im like you, when i buy something i want to know what im buying, and it sometimes irks me to have to transform myself in a kind of Sherlock Holmes to fig out the answers to my questions... sometimes even the price is not mentioned in the adpic. But i often attribute this to poor skills about communication or marketing. And yes, its shame.

[Jewel Laurasia]

Thank you for saying something. I usually have a small store to play with in-world. I want to do things right, and this was a good reminder about item information. I'm updating my vendor signs now

[Teagan Tobias]

Thanks, because I for one don't like a Pig in a Poke.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I agree that full disclosure of permissions and other information like that need to be disclosed prior to purchase.

Networked vendors don't contain the items you are buying only a script that tells a server when and what to send you when you buy an item.  Network vendors are here to stay as they save a merchant tons of time in managing their stores and inventory, time that can be used for creating new items or spent in RL if they have limited time to spend in SL.  The amount of time a merchant has to spend creating items and managing their store can effect the prices they charge.  Time is money, after all.  They also provide better security against copybotters since the actual product is not in the vendor.

Newer networked vendors don't cause much lag, if any, anymore as the tech behind them has improved greatly and they now only use one script as opposed to the many that used to be necessary.  They also sleep when no one is actively using them and only wake when the vendor is touched. 

Most networked vendors have the ability to give you an information notecard prior to purchase about the items in the vendor, either individually by specific product, or about all the products in that vendor if the information is the same. Alternatively some will give the information to  you in chat. Usually you can either click the picture to get it or an info button.

If a merchant doesn't have thier vendors set up to give information, they should have store policies that you can read either on a sign or get from a notecard giver, if the same info applies to everything they sell.  Generally these are near the entrance or a customer service desk.

When I use my networked vendors, my pictures show the permissions, and lists what you get and/or I set the vendor up to chat the information or give a notecard with detailed information if there is a lot to tell.  I don't put the price on my sales picture because then I have to change it anytime I change the price, for instance for a sale or because the product is older and I decide to reduce the price. But you can click the picture and the price is given in chat. Anyone can also see what the price is by 'buying".  When the pay dialog comes up you have a choice to pay or cancel after all.

 

[Teagan Tobias]

And I would think that “full disclosure of permissions and other information like that need to be disclosed prior to purchase” should be a common curtsy by anyone expecting to sell anything. Glad to see you agree And I don't really care how I get the information, on the ad board, note card, sign at the service desk or by a bird swooping down screeching “its copy modify no transfer”. But without the information its a no sale. I am glad to see there are people that agree with me.

[mtwtfss71]

I totally agree with you. As a shopper, I won't buy unless I know what I'm getting. As a merchant, I include permissions, a list of what comes in the package (including layers), and I also show the product (clothing usually) from all angles. Nothing irks me more than loving the front of a dress and then hating the back when I get it.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I don't put the price on my sales picture because then I have to change it anytime I change the price, for instance for a sale or because the product is older and I decide to reduce the price. But you can click the picture and the price is given in chat. Anyone can also see what the price is by 'buying".  When the pay dialog comes up you have a choice to pay or cancel after all.

 

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Same here.  When I first began my store I put prices on the vendor images but quickly realized I would be doing quite a bit of uploading new textures when I had a sale, etc. and adding the 10L upload to the price of the product negated the point of a sale/reduced price.

I am absolutely all for complete product disclosure but, as Amethyst states, there is more than one way to do this.

The OP brings up another topic that I have struggled with in my entire time as a merchant - the Copy or Transfer question.  Short history (skip for those who have already read this...lol):

*I sell small home furnishings and gift items.  When I began my shop in 2008 my permissions were Mod/Trans/No Copy.  This was based on my personal preference as a customer.  At that time Yard Sales were very popular.  I sold some items I no longer needed/wanted in yard sales; thus Transfer perms were important to me as a customer.  Assuming others felt the same, I used those perms in my created items.

*After some favorite No Copy items were lost in an inventory glitch, I saw the wisdom in back-up copies and changed my item permissions to Mod/Copy/No Trans.  I kept these permissions for years.

*Last year I noticed that a very popular furniture store (not owned by anyone who posts on these forums) and whose items I really like uses ONLY Transfer perms for most items.  I've heard many people say they absolutely will not purchase No Mod items, thus I was a bit surprised at how popular the merchant's store is.  This got me thinking.

*My items are priced very inexpensively, but it is what I consider a fair price.  My best selling items are drapes & blinds.  In talking to other merchants I realized that a landlord could purchase one of these and, with Copy perms, make unlimited copies while another customer could pay the same price and just use one set and have the backup for safety.

*This led to my beginning a thread on the forums to get an idea if customers preferred Copy or Transfer permissions.  The comments I got were almost equally split with just a few more on the Copy side.  Suggestions included raising the price on the items that could be used en masse but then I didn't feel that was fair for the customer who just wanted one set of <whatever>.

*Awhile back I had begun including rezzer scripts in my items that notified me when a purchased item was rezzed.  I did this due to the MP often not being accurate in reporting.  I began paying attention to how many times a given object was rezzed but then realized this may not give a true picture as that only applies to each time the box is rezzed, not for a rezzed item that is then copied back into inventory.

*More thinking and pondering.  More looking at my competitors to see what they do.  Looking at well-known successful merchants to see what perms they use for similar items.  The results - totally mixed.  Well dang.

*When I migrated to DD I had reached the conclusion that my items are inexpensive enough that if a person does want more than one of an item, it is STILL very inexpensive to purchase another and, given that several of my favorite stores that are also very successful use Mod/Trans permissions, I changed my permissions to those and lowered the price on some of the products to reflect the permission change.  I also offer a quantity discount for someone who may want to buy a large number of <whatever>.

*Now I read that the OP will never buy an item that doesn't have Copy perms. What's a merchant to do? :matte-motes-crying:

Edit: Typo

 

[Sassy Romano]

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beanster Potato wrote:

...but as a costumer you cant see what you're actually buying that way. 

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You see a prim part of an item of clothing which is inside a prim set to sell content.

The prim part is listed as "Skirt (no mod)"

What are the permissions of that object?

If you answered anything other than "there is insufficient information to determine actual object permissions" then you would be wrong.

It only takes a no mod script inside a prim which IS modify for the collapsed permisisons to show as above and with people using texture setting scripts, resizers and the like you simply cannot tell even by looking at the content for sale.  I find this just as frustrating as it then means an IM to the merchant  and i've lost count of the number of times i've had to explain that "no, you do NOT have to set the object to no modify, just because it contains a no mod script!" which some believe to be the required case.

Then there are those who do set the object no modify and add a resizer and texture changer and then list it as "modify" permissions because they feel that being able to change its appearance via scripted means must mean it's modify.

As far as Marketplace is concerned, if the permissions are not the SL object permissions then it's flaggable as "permissions not as advertised".

[Perrie Juran]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I don't put the price on my sales picture because then I have to change it anytime I change the price, for instance for a sale or because the product is older and I decide to reduce the price. But you can click the picture and the price is given in chat. Anyone can also see what the price is by 'buying".  When the pay dialog comes up you have a choice to pay or cancel after all.

 

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*Last year I noticed that a very popular furniture store (not owned by anyone who posts on these forums) and whose items I really like uses ONLY Transfer perms for most items.  I've heard many people say they absolutely will not purchase No Mod items, thus I was a bit surprised at how popular the merchant's store is.  This got me thinking.

 

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There can be so many things factoring in it can be next to impossible to decipher the cause.

The primary reason I want Mod furniture is so I can add (or delete) animations.

If a Merchant has done what I feel is a good job with the animations I might accept no-mod.

Sadly I've seen some beautiful furniture that the animations looked like a lazy afterthought. 

[Teagan Tobias]

*Now I read that the OP will never buy an item that doesn't have Copy perms. What's a merchant to do?

 

A little clarification, I said I do not use no copy items. Well I did when I had land, I would buy no copy trees and plants. But what I would buy came in packages of ten of something like that. I can understand no copy on something like that, but with clothing, if its no transfer, then what good is no copy, how many pairs of the same heels can I put on at once. But I found I am really, and I mean really, good at deleting my stuff, so I make backups and box them up. Have used my backups many times over the years. I kept a pair of shoes, or one shoe, in my inventory for years just to remind me that if its no copy and one shoe gets lost, the pair of shoes is useless. That was my last pair of no copy shoes and at last count I had over 400 (is that bad). Once when I asked a merchant why his lingerie was no copy, he told me, its because they are part of a set, that left me scratching my head, so I just moved on to another store. I don't see it much any more but there were stores that gave you the choice, copy modify no transfer, or modify transfer, I liked that.

I think I am rambling now so I'll stop.

[Poenald Palen]

Of course, if you have it seeable they can copybot it, and transfer it to others and then their truly would be/is a always another store to get the exact item as n00bs or those unkowing sell the stuff they get to n00bs and those unkowing...or maybe both don't care because they are laundering money for an out of world transaction and just need some quick stuff to get money flowing AND look as if there are legit prices. Not sure if this si happening, but it answered why some cronic offenders offend cronically....maybe for cronic? Yeah, maybe...then again they could be troll lawyers or competition a) copying the items and getting you to file take downs and then b) reporting you to the IRS for earnings issues after infiltrating your life OR maybe they find out you don't earn hardly anything and then continue on hurting you because they are evil people...or because they need money laundering channels.....I mean, the stuff isn't worth so much anyway, especially at a deep discount.....right? So, we end up with worry and payment info on file and all that stuff arguments. Then again, this whole supposed second life may simply be a mirage and I am stuck in the 13th century and spent way to much time playing with an abacus and thought of all that might become of computing devices or I could be a time traveller even....wait...why do I feel horse turd on my legs....oh no..../me disapears in a flash of light and leaves a huge burning hole in the ground "for the love of Thor what is happening!"

[ImaTest1488314069]

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Poenald Palen wrote:

Of course, if you have it seeable they can

copy

bot it, and

transfer

it to others and then their truly would be/is a always another store to get the exact item as n00bs or those unkowing sell the stuff they get to n00bs and those unkowing...or maybe both don't care because they are laundering money for an out of world transaction and just need some quick stuff to get money flowing AND look as if there are legit prices. Not sure if this si happening, but it answered why some cronic offenders offend cronically....maybe for cronic? Yeah, maybe...then again they could be troll lawyers or competition a) copying the items and getting you to file take downs and then b) reporting you to the IRS for earnings issues after infiltrating your life OR maybe they find out you don't earn hardly anything and then continue on hurting you because they are evil people...or because they need money laundering channels.....I mean, the stuff isn't worth so much anyway, especially at a deep discount.....right? So, we end up with worry and payment info on file and all that stuff arguments. Then again, this whole supposed second life may simply be a mirage and I am stuck in the 13th century and spent way to much time playing with an abacus and thought of all that might become of computing devices or I could be a time traveller even....wait...why do I feel horse turd on my legs....oh no..../me disapears in a flash of light and leaves a huge burning hole in the ground "for the love of Thor what is happening!"

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Wtheck did this have to do with anything that was asked, or posted, in this thread?

 

As for the OP, good topic, imo. Sometimes, as creators, people fail to stop to think about the end product from a consumer point of view. I don't think it's all that hard to get stuck in that kind of mindset. Especially when one is in a creative sort of mood and busy, busy, busy taking care of business. It's rarely intentional, I don't believe, but it does happen.

I didn't use, and wouldn't use a vendor script, unless I had to. Most of my stuff was fairly easy tos ee what was included. Between the text on the vendor pic, and being able to see the contents of the vendor itself. If something had specific permissions, such in the case as one person replied, an item that IS modify but a scipt inside would cause it to seem not modify, I'd make that known too. I only did this through trial and error though. Which is how I think many, most probably, merchants find their way.

The whole copy/mod or mod/trans debate could go on for years. There are both benefits and downfalls to each and it would depend entirely on the product at hand. Not even always the type of product, but the actual product. What works well for some merchants(and therefore customers) as copy/mod might not work so well for others.

As you said, though, there are always other places to go when one doesn't meet your needs.

 

[Rya Nitely]

I have a skybox where we direct people who want to do a quick inworld shop instead of exploring two sims full of items. You can also buy as a gift there so the vendor boxes have scripts, and therefore the items are boxed so you can't see the contents. We try to put information on the box but you can only fit so much. I'm starting to wonder if this set up is worthwhile for the rare occasion that it's used for gifting. I did have a customer tell me recently 'No, I won't buy up there as I don't like the payment method. I want to click and buy.'

I am seriously thinking of persuading my partner to dismantle the whole thing  and just have standard prims where items are unboxed to show content and perms. Now, dismantling everything is a huge amount of work - but if customers prefer things done a certain way then I believe in listening to customers and will go the extra mile, even if it takes my time away from creating that new item or missing out on that break. The customer should come first. I know that as a customer when I have a complaint I don't want to hear justifications. I want the merchant to show concern and at least try to resolve it first, or take it on board for future consideration.

Edit to add: I also think that seeing and verifying the content of your purchase in MP listings is important too. For this reason I have my items unboxed there.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Rya Nitely wrote:

I have a skybox where we direct people who want to do a quick inworld shop instead of exploring two sims full of items. You can also buy as a gift there so the vendor boxes have scripts, and therefore the items are boxed so you can't see the contents. We try to put information on the box but you can only fit so much. I'm starting to wonder if this set up is worthwhile for the rare occasion that it's used for gifting. I did have a customer tell me recently 'No, I won't buy up there as I don't like the payment method. I want to click and buy.'

I am seriously thinking of persuading my partner to dismantle the whole thing  and just have standard prims where items are unboxed to show content and perms. 

Now, dismantling everything is a huge amount of work - but if customers prefer things done a certain way then I believe in listening to customers and will go the extra mile, even if it takes my time away from creating that new item or missing out on that break. The customer should come first. I know that as a customer when I have a complaint I don't want to hear justifications. I want the merchant to show concern and at least try to resolve it first, or take it on board for future consideration.

Edit to add: I also think that seeing and verifying the content of your purchase in MP listings is important too. For this reason I have my items unboxed there.

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Did you tried to put your items unboxed in your vendors + 1 boxed version (for the purchase as gift) ?

 

 

my vendors are scripted too bec of the "buy as a gift" feature and bec of other features (like gift card or store credit). i put both version of my items in the vendors contents : 1 unboxed (for the personal purchase, so pp will have it delivered in a folder, and can see the contents from the vendor,) and 1 boxed (for the buy as a gift, so the person gifted that can be elsewhere than on my sim, will have it in a pack).

The boxed option in vendors that have buy as a gift feature is just bec LL cant send from a sim to another sim in a folder. so if you have 10 items in the contents, the person will recieve 10 items in objects folder. So not easy to find back everything. But i dont see any reason for a vendor dont want to deliver unboxed items in a folder if the buyer is just beside the vendor. Like any other object it would send the bunch of items in a folder.

[Rya Nitely]

Thanks Trinity, I will discuss this with my partner and give it a try

[Czari Zenovka]

Ah yes, you did say you didn't "use" no copy items. I'm still a bit fuzzy on the difference between not using a no copy item and not buying one, but I'm a little under the weather today so it's likely me not understanding.

When I began a thread on General awhile back to get a feel for if people preferred copy/mod or mod/trans items, I specifically stated I was asking for the type of items I create.  Some people indicated they prefer different perms for home items vs wearable items.  For clothing, shoes, jewelry, etc. most people who posted in that thread preferred copy/mod for clothing due to the ability to mix & match various clothing items to create different looks.  I'm in that category now as well for clothing since I put entire outfits, including hair, skin, accessories, together.

400 shoes is a lot, for me, but then in RL & SL I tend to be a minimalist and in clothing/jewelry/shoes I have my favorite outfits.  When something in one of them wears out, I purchase a replacement.  I have more SL shoes than RL shoes, mainly because I need to do some weeding of outdated shoes in SL.  My entire inventory, including all my textures/building supplies, is at about 8,500 atm.  I'm working to pare that down as well, heh. 

[Teagan Tobias]

I am an honest person and assume I am talking to honest people, so there is no difference between using and buying no copy items, you must buy them to use them in my mind. The only difference could be freebies. And yes, I have not picked up some nice freebies because they are no copy. But then if they are free I see no problem with taking several copies, free is free is free. And I have done this a number of times, but if its limited to one copy, I just keep walking and take none.

And 8,500 in your inventory, wow, how do you do that. I am right at 40K right now, but it does not slow me down any, and I do delete items, I have made 40K my upper limit and try to keep from going over that. I guess I should look at my older shoes and get rid of some that just need to be deleted after five years. And hair, I could most likely get rid of 5K right there.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

 

And 8,500 in your inventory, wow, how do you do that. I am right at 40K right now, but it does not slow me down any, and I do delete items, I have made 40K my upper limit and try to keep from going over that. I guess I should look at my older shoes and get rid of some that just need to be deleted after five years. And hair, I could most likely get rid of 5K right there.

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I find various ways to cut down on inventory items.  I have a LOT of items I don't use regularly boxed up with each box named for easy referral.  That takes care of a ton of furnishings as well as seasonal items, including clothing.  If I have a bunch of note cards on one topic that are just for reference, I store note cards within note cards.  I bought a wonderful item called Travel Agent that allowed me to organize lm's - I use one for each category of lm's.  I love, love, love texture organizers and utilize a couple different types depending on how often I may use a given texture.  I also use texture organizers for photos.

Basically I'm obsessive/compulsive about my inventory...lol.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

why would clothing need to be copyable?

 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

why would clothing need to be copyable?

 

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Because you want to be able to make several mix and matches folders with outfit ?

because you want to be able to keep a backup copy in case you messed your items trying to adjust, resize etc ?

of course, this doesnt apply for now to mesh, since they are not modifiable... But if one day, this happen... your customers will need the copy perm aswell

 

now, my turn... why a clothing need to be transferable ?

(the gift answer wont work... merchants can use vendors with "buy as gift" option or leat the customers to MP for gifts )

[Pamela Galli]

Back when I changed clothes more than once a year, I liked trans clothing because I could give it to an alt or a friend if I did not want it anymore; also, you can return items if they don't suit you after all. I also liked copyable items for the reasons you say. There are advantages or disadvantages either way.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

yep....

so this is why i think there isnt wrong or right way to settle perms.. its impossible to satisfy everyone.

when i started my business my items were trans, just bec of the reason you gave.. i wanted pp able to gift the item if they dont want it anymore. Then.. ive read in this forum a lot of pp saying they wanted copy perms.. then again, other ones saying they wanted trans perms.. and on and on....

After i started to use my vendor system that has the "buy as a gift" option.. i decided to make my items copy. Of course, it wont fix the problem for sending to alts or to friends if ones doesnt want the item anymore... but well... i had to make a choice. Now i keep with this one. And till now i had zero complaints.

the right way to settle perms is the one you will fill comfortable with as a merchant. It can be copy, it can be trans... There is always the possibility to change perms for a customer asking for it. 

I have every kind of perms on items i bought in my inventory... The main thing for me is the MOD perm... for copy and trans i dont really mind... im prone to prefer copy, bec of the backup option, but its not really crippling for i decide to buy something.

[Teagan Tobias]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

why would clothing need to be copyable?

 

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And the even BIGER question, why shouldn’t clothing be copyable? Like Trinity said, the gift option wont work. So why not, just be be mean?

I box up outfits / avatars complete with shape, skin, hair and everything, I take a photo and keep the box and photo in a folder. I now have two items in my inventory for a complete avatar. No copy makes it so when you unpack the box the no copy item is no longer in the box. With the copy only items I unpack the box and then delete it. When I am finished with that avatar I delete it and again have only the box and photo. So because of that I will not purchase no copy clothing.  Mesh or any other kind.