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Maki Guyot

Why Linden Lab will not get my money anymore.

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As SL content creator and user of 3rd party linden exchange for ower 3 yrs now i have noticed fallowing since new TOS hit me in the face without any prior warning:

1. 6 of my biggest buyers left SL leaving massages like :"I cant get money in SL anymore n i cant buy stuff,no point being here anymore!"

2. My sales are down to 0 from ower 10k L$ a day...

3.I myself cant take my hard earned money out of SL anymore becouse only  3rd party linden exchange i worked with as mentioned already for ower 3 yrs has stopped SL tranactions untill further notice (Virvox)

Concluson: I dont plan to keep my buisness running just to fork ower to Linden Labs more than 300$ US a month just to play around...SL isnt a game for me but a job ! If issue with new TOS doesnt resolve itself soon i am forced to close down my buisness and leave SL

P:S. Awsome job kicing yourself in the ass dear LL!

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virwox.JPG

 

Just noticed this.  28 Billion Linden's exchanged.  That's around   $115,000,000 U.S.

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Maybe nothing has changed when it comes to the TOS, but their recent actions outside of it is a different story; they've killed off the Risk API, forcing exchanges to either cease accepting L$ deposits all together or making those who still do more vulnerable to fraud.

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Virvox says this : 

"We have asked Linden Lab for clarification. Until we know what this all means, we have disabled deposits of Linden Dollars"

As everyone here they have noticed that the TOS and the blog doesnt say the same thing... So we have to wait they say which to believe.

A person of one of the TP exchange systems has posted the mail they recieved ffrom LL... obviously it was coming from the same person who wrote the blog and not the one who wrote the TOS. 

LL here is nothing but as their usual behavior... no respect at all for their users... saying one thing, then stating another one...

And here they are playing a really dangerous game if they kill one time for all, the SL economy...

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Perrie Juran wrote:

virwox.JPG

 

Just noticed this.  28 Billion Linden's exchanged.  That's around   $115,000,000 U.S.

Wow. I didn't even look at that part of the page, just read the text. That dollar amount alone shows just how many people rely on that service alone. I am at a loss of words on how many people this will affect in sl merchants and residents alike.

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

Virvox says this : 

"We have asked Linden Lab for clarification. Until we know what this all means, we have disabled deposits of Linden Dollars"

As everyone here they have noticed that the TOS and the blog doesnt say the same thing... So we have to wait they say which to believe.

A person of one of the TP exchange systems has posted the mail they recieved ffrom LL... obviously it was coming from the same person who wrote the blog and not the one who wrote the TOS. 

LL here is nothing but as their usual behavior... no respect at all for their users... saying one thing, then stating another one...

And here they are playing a really dangerous game if they kill one time for all, the SL economy...

And kill the creativity that flows through second life as well as businesses and users who enjoy enhancing their sl through purchasing the objects those create.

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I just assumed that LL is liable for nothing it does. Its given me a real expectation of SL and I haven't has issues since. I assume that whatever I put in I might not get back. Makes like easier that way. 

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the site i used to use for transactions doesn`t change Lindens anymore. So much for nothing has changend. I used it because i could use simple bank transfers.

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Reading the new regulation I found this:

"The second form involves a de facto sale of convertible virtual currency that is not completely transparent. The exchanger accepts currency or its equivalent from a user and privately credits the user with an appropriate portion of the exchanger's own convertible virtual currency held with the administrator of the repository. The exchanger then transmits that internally credited value to third parties at the user's direction. This constitutes transmission to another person, namely each third party to which transmissions are made at the user's direction. To the extent that the convertible virtual currency is generally understood as a substitute for real currencies, transmitting the convertible virtual currency at the direction and for the benefit of the user constitutes money transmission on the part of the exchanger."

This seems to mean that transactions LL has with TPE is not completely transparent as is required by these regulations, since LL transmits the L's and real money through its software.  If this is true, LL has no choice but to stop TPE's or face some serious consequences legally if they are found to be in violation of US Treasury regulations concerning transparency, and perhaps criminally if the TPE is guilty of any financial monkey business.  You can bet LL sought a lot of legal advice about this prior to the TOS changes.

Like it or not LL is a US company and must comply with all US treasury regulations, which is a good thing IMO.  US Treasury regulations regarding transparency in financial transactions exist to protect consumers from unscrupulous companies.  I won't be at all surprised if other online games and virtual currency exchanges doing business in the US, such as bitcoin make similar announcements too.

LL could mitigate the problems this causes some customers by accepting more forms of payment and processing cash outs faster.  It would appear in their best interest to do so, or risk losing a lot of business.  Perhaps they will be smart enough to realize it.   However, if they decide to do something like this it won't happen overnight,  I imagine it will take a while to get it going and they won't make any announcements about it until then.  We'll just have to wait to see if they do.

 

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Reading the new regulation I found this:

"
The second form involves a de facto sale of convertible virtual currency that is not completely transparent.
The exchanger accepts currency or its equivalent from a user and privately credits the user with an appropriate portion of the exchanger's own convertible virtual currency held with the administrator of the repository. The exchanger then transmits that internally credited value to third parties at the user's direction. This constitutes transmission to
another person
, namely each third party to which transmissions are made at the user's direction. To the extent that the convertible virtual currency is generally understood as a substitute for real currencies, transmitting the convertible virtual currency at the direction and for the benefit of the user constitutes money transmission on the part of the exchanger."

This seems to mean that transactions LL has with TPE is not completely transparent as is required by these regulations, since LL transmits the L's and real money through its software.  If this is true, LL has no choice but to stop TPE's or face some serious consequences legally if they are found to be in violation of US Treasury regulations concerning transparency, and perhaps criminally if the TPE is guilty of any financial monkey business.  You can bet LL sought a lot of legal advice about this prior to the TOS changes.

Like it or not LL is a US company and must comply with all US treasury regulations, which is a good thing IMO. 
US Treasury regulations regarding transparency in financial transactions exist to protect consumers from unscrupulous companies. 
I won't be at all surprised if other online games and virtual currency exchanges doing business in the US, such as bitcoin make similar announcements too.

LL could mitigate the problems this causes some customers by accepting more forms of payment and processing cash outs faster.  It would appear in their best interest to do so, or risk losing a lot of business.  Perhaps they will be smart enough to realize it.   However, if they decide to do something like this it won't happen overnight,  I imagine it will take a while to get it going and they won't make any announcements about it until then. 
We'll just have to wait to see if they do.

 

"US Treasury regulations regarding transparency in financial transactions exist to protect consumers from unscrupulous companies."

 

If you believe that, I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

With all the bank and stock market problems just exactly how many criminal charges have been filed?

And while the people responsible for running these Banks & Brokerage Firms were enjoying plush bonuses, how many pennies on the dollar did we "consumers" get?

 

 

 

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DX Exchange have announced:

"Following the new Terms of Service of Linden Lab, we have received many inquiries from customers. At this moment we did not receive an immediate notification from Linden Lab concerning the activities of DXexchange. However, we are in talk with other by LL previously approved exchanges to assess the situation. For now we will continue our activities as an exchange office. Since our start in 2006, we always have had good contact with Linden Lab and it has always been clear to our customers that buying Linden dollars at DXexchange does fall under the responsibility and risk of DXexchange and does not fall under the responsibility or risk of LL. That is not changed. Because we ourselves bear the risk of unauthorized credit card transactions, we have made one change: Rush orders for selling Linden dollars were made impossible until further notice. This creates more time for LL to check sales orders and we can still block an order before we proceed to out-payment."


So they are still trading for now, as are Podex and AnsheX by the looks of it. However at least eight exchanges have ceased trading for now.

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yes it was my guess since this morning, but then what about this : http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Updated-Terms-Of-Service/m-p/1998481#M105459 ?

if pp are threatened to be banned i dont think pp will dare to try .... admiting this is true of course... (not having doubt about the person who posted it of course, but shes not the one who recieved personaly the mail)

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Ciaran Laval wrote:

DX Exchange have announced:

"Following the new Terms of Service of Linden Lab, we have received many inquiries from customers. At this moment we did not receive an immediate notification from Linden Lab concerning the activities of DXexchange. However, we are in talk with other by LL previously approved exchanges to assess the situation. For now we will continue our activities as an exchange office. Since our start in 2006, we always have had good contact with Linden Lab and it has always been clear to our customers that buying Linden dollars at DXexchange does fall under the responsibility and risk of DXexchange and does not fall under the responsibility or risk of LL. That is not changed. Because we ourselves bear the risk of unauthorized credit card transactions, we have made one change: Rush orders for selling Linden dollars were made impossible until further notice. This creates more time for LL to check sales orders and we can still block an order before we proceed to out-payment."

 

So they are still trading for now, as are Podex and AnsheX by the looks of it. However at least eight exchanges have ceased trading for now.

They say they are bearing the risk, but do you think they'll be covering all the active orders out of their pocket if / when their trading account gets canceled?

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

yes it was my guess since this morning, but then what about this : 
 ?

if pp are threatened to be banned i dont think pp will dare to try .... admiting this is true of course... (not having doubt about the person who posted it of course, but shes not the one who recieved personaly the mail)

That post puzzled me greatly.

"I know an estate owner who runs a little exchange as well. He has contacted his account manager for more clarifaction. He was told :

"We will shut down any resident for a violation of the terms of service if we discover they are trading L$ outside of the LindeX. The only authorized exchange is the LindeX."

 

If they are the Estate owner then who is this 'Acct Mgr?'

Something does not compute?

 

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The problem is however that this move alienates folk outside of the USoA, including Europe which already has stricter finance laws than the USoA.

In addition, Lindex *only* works on US$ which is useless to most folk outside the USoA. So then the fees incurred increase dramatically since you have to use PayPal, who give a naff exchange rate (and charge you) to convert your money. And charge again to send the money to you (despite sitting on it for a few days)

THEN also 5 working days for the transfer of YOUR money to PayPal (when surprisingly enough, you withdraw from PayPal to LL it happens straight away!). THEN add on the days for PayPal to transfer to your bank account.


All these days, they are making profit from the interest on your money.

I use Virwox, and I get the money in my bank account 2 working days after I've paid the terminal InWorld (1 day is the time for the direct bank transfer from their bank account in a different country to my own bank account). In my own currency. With only one small fee when I exchanged from L$.

Fees:-
Virwox
1 fee when transferring from L$

Lindex
Fee (Lindex) to transfer from L$ to USD
Fee (Lindex) to send to PayPal
Fee (PayPal) to convert from USD to my own currency
Fee (PayPal) to send to my bank account


Time:-
Virwox
2 working days from depositing funds InWorld


Lindex
5 working days to send to PayPal
2 working days for PayPal to send to bank account (other countries are longer)

Lindex HAVE to make real adjustments to how folk can withdraw. Including, but not limited to:-
Availability of currencies other than USD
(It is when all said and done just a trading market, and users are trading in Euros, GBP, AUS$ etc.)

Ability to send direct to bank accounts in a timely fashion.

IF they insist on using PayPal (a Third Party), they must send the money immediately (the same way they withdraw money from you to buy L$ immediately).

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it puzzle me aswell....

again and again ive read the tos article....

the title first : 

5.3 There are other exchanges that are operated by third parties on which Linden dollars are exchanged.

if it was about something firmly forbiden.. i dont think the sentence woudl be "there are other ..." but "be aware there are some others... " or just simply "about other...."

then

first sentence : 

"Third party exchanges are not authorized by Linden Lab and Buying or Selling Linden dollars on third party exchanges are not authorized transactions."

so here they say they are not authorized what is different than "not allowed".. "not allowed is nowhere in this article...

"Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk." in every other parts of the tos, they are not hesitating to state clearly that one's can be banned or suspended for breaking a rule. At every article where there is smth forbiden, you'll find a sentence saying the punition you risk for breaking the rule..

here there nothing about what you risk....

the sentence btw doesnt forbide anything but just say to pp that if they trade l$ elsewhere than with lindex they do it at their own risk...

they end the article saying : "The only authorized exchange is the LindeX." what is clearly different than "the only allowed exchange is the lindex...

so now... there is a big contradiction between this and the blog.... between this and if its true the mails supposed to have been sent....

So we have tons of reasons to be puzzled... and it would be great if someone from Ll comes one time for all explain clearly....

consequences may be really serious if now pp run to cash out their money and close their business...

keeping closing their eyes would be the most stupid mistake they would do...

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and id like to add that what i have agreed for is for the TOS

i haven t been asked to agreed to any blog....

the box i checked was for the TOS and only the TOS

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Perrie Juran wrote:

 

If they are the Estate owner then who is this 'Acct Mgr?'

Something does not compute?

 

The account manager is the contact person at Linden Lab.

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

 

If they are the Estate owner then who is this 'Acct Mgr?'

Something does not compute?

 

The account manager is the contact person at Linden Lab.

Thank you for clarifying.

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

it puzzle me aswell....

again and again ive read the tos article....

the title first : 

5.3 There are other exchanges that are operated by third parties on which Linden dollars are exchanged.

if it was about something firmly forbiden.. i dont think the sentence woudl be "there are other ..." but "be aware there are some others... " or just simply "about other...."

then

first sentence : 

"Third party exchanges are not authorized by Linden Lab and Buying or Selling Linden dollars on third party exchanges are not authorized transactions."

so here they say they are not authorized what is different than "not allowed".. "not allowed is nowhere in this article...

"Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk." 
in every other parts of the tos, they are not hesitating to state clearly that one's can be banned or suspended for breaking a rule. At every article where there is smth forbiden, you'll find a sentence saying the punition you risk for breaking the rule..

here there nothing about what you risk....

the sentence btw doesnt forbide anything but just say to pp that if they trade l$ elsewhere than with lindex they do it at their own risk...

they end the article saying : "
The only authorized exchange is the LindeX
." what is clearly different than "the only allowed exchange is the lindex...

so now... there is a big contradiction between this and the blog.... between this and if its true the mails supposed to have been sent....

So we have tons of reasons to be puzzled... and it would be great if someone from Ll comes one time for all explain clearly....

consequences may be really serious if now pp run to cash out their money and close their business...

keeping closing their eyes would be the most stupid mistake they would do...

One thing is that TECHNICALLY SPEAKING, the Material changes are not in effect for 30 days.

 

1. CHANGES TO THIS AGREEMENT

This Agreement may be changed by Linden Lab effective immediately by notifying you as provided in Section 13.4 below; provided that Material Changes will become effective thirty (30) days after such notification. By continuing to access or use Second Life after the effective date of any such change, you agree to be bound by the modified Terms of Service. A "Material Change" is a change to this Agreement which reduces your contractual rights or increases your responsibilities under this Agreement in a significant manner.

 

So right now you can trade to your hearts delight!

But it is at your own risk.

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well firstly Perrie, i never cashed out any l$ and for purchasing my monthly l$ i use lindex.. so i wont trade to my hearts delights...

i just wanted to point out that the more serious pb here is the incoherence of LL speech...

this : 

"

1. CHANGES TO THIS AGREEMENT

This Agreement may be changed by Linden Lab effective immediately by notifying you as provided in Section 13.4 below; provided that Material Changes will become effective thirty (30) days after such notification. By continuing to access or use Second Life after the effective date of any such change, you agree to be bound by the modified Terms of Service. A "Material Change" is a change to this Agreement which reduces your contractual rights or increases your responsibilities under this Agreement in a significant manner."

doesn t say they asked to us to agreed with smth they will tell us 30 days later, but that will apply 30 days later

the TOS we have agreed for yesterday will remain the ones that will be applied within 30 days.... and again... in this new TOS there is nothing that said its forbiden to trade with third party exchanges...

on top.. they clearly call these systems "third party"... a third party (whatever its the third) remain being a party.  So they aknowledge their existence as a party of the system of the l$ streams.

 

 

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Well, I'm gonna wait for a few days, maybe a few weeks to see how it goes and if any exchange services gonna open again.


But if not, it's "bye bye SL" pretty much. LL seems to have no <bleep> clue what are they doing recently. Every new change, be it for server, viewer or ToS does more harm than anything good. Just let SL to live in peace for the last few years, your miserable attempts to change something do nothing at all, sims amount droping month after month.

And with this change (unless 3rd party services gonna re-open soon) it will be even worse. For instance I don't own/rent a sim, but I do donate some L$ to a few of my favorite ones. No $ for me = less donations for those sims.

And before anyone would ask. I do have my reasons to not use CC/PP here, already burnt on this once, never will do again.
 And I'm not gonna open new CC just to pay for SL.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

It sounds like a good time to learn how to create things that other people want to buy. Then you won't need to use any real money.

Please tell me you're joking...

Not everyone have a time/talent or will to create things in SL. I'm loging to SL for 2-3 hours every few days to relax, talk with people and do some other activities. I already have a job in rl and not looking to work in SL at all.

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

and id like to add that what i have agreed for is for the TOS

i haven t been asked to agreed to any blog....

the box i checked was for the TOS and only the TOS

The ToS saying that if you use Lindex for your transactions they guarantee the L$ you trade is legitimate, and in case of any fraudulent activity they assume the responsibility. But if you trade L$'s any other way they have no obligations. 

In practical terms if you don't use Lindex from now on they can just accuse you of fraud, take all your assests away, and you can't prove anything since you have got no way of tracking the transactions of the third party you dealt with. 

The blog is just doing a lousy job explaining this.

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