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Maki Guyot

Why Linden Lab will not get my money anymore.

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The new ToS puts me in a position where I can not purchase L$ from LL anymore.

 

Here are the reasons why:

  1. Where Gyndex and DX Exchange allowed me to use the money transfer processes I have available to me, Lindex does not.
  2. Lindex does not allow me to process my funds in any way that is realistic in these days. It takes too long for the money to be processed.
  3. Lindex hardly ever works, especially in-game, as;
  4. the in-game browser is not up to my banks' security standards.

I do hope LL wises up when they find their money flow suddenly grind to a halt when people like me, who are unable or unwilling to use Lindex, stop investing in L$.

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It sounds like a good time to learn how to create things that other people want to buy. Then you won't need to use any real money.

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well since "not allowed" or "not authorized" can be understood in different way, it can also been be understand as "non acredited".. so you just can keep buying your l$ the way you use to do, the only difference wil be there wont be anymore software for checking if you can trust or not.. so it will be at your own risk, but honnestly i dont think there will be a big difference, if you already trust the system you use to use.

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

well since "not allowed" or "not authorized" can be understood in different way, it can also been be understand as "non acredited".. so you just can keep buying your l$ the way you use to do, the only difference wil be there wont be anymore software for checking if you can trust or not.. so it will be at your own risk, but honnestly i dont think there will be a big difference, if you already trust the system you use to use.

As explained in this article,

"Linden Lab’s support team is telling people that LL is interpreting “not authorized” to mean
“not permitted”
rather than
“not accredited.
"

It's unfortunate, but it will stop my moneyflow altogether.

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I use virwox to exchange my rl money into lindens cause they let me use paysafecard as its the only way i get to use money in game.......  but all the exchange groups now dont make the trade cause this STUPID politic, so i´m without money and i have an paysafecard ticket in my hand with 25 euros i wasted for nothing!!!!!

 

NOW WHAT???

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Maki Guyot wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

well since "not allowed" or "not authorized" can be understood in different way, it can also been be understand as "non acredited".. so you just can keep buying your l$ the way you use to do, the only difference wil be there wont be anymore software for checking if you can trust or not.. so it will be at your own risk, but honnestly i dont think there will be a big difference, if you already trust the system you use to use.

As explained
,

"Linden Lab’s support team is telling people that LL is interpreting “not authorized” to mean
“not permitted”
rather than
“not accredited.
"

It's unfortunate, but it will stop my moneyflow altogether.

no, the real sentence says : "Apparently, Linden Lab’s support team is telling people that LL is interpreting “not authorized” to mean “not permitted” rather than “not accredited.”"

we dont know who or where comes from this "apparently"....

the TOS says exactly this : 

"

5.3 There are other exchanges that are operated by third parties on which Linden dollars are exchanged.

Third party exchanges are not authorized by Linden Lab and Buying or Selling Linden dollars on third party exchanges are not authorized transactions. Third party exchanges are wholly distinct from both the LindeX exchange and Linden Lab and they have no affiliation with Linden Lab. We do not endorse or otherwise guarantee the legitimacy of the Linden dollar transfers offered on them, and we are not liable for purchases of such Linden dollars. Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk. If you Buy Linden dollars that are traced to unauthorized credit card activity or other fraudulent activity, we will recoup these Linden dollars from your Account. The only authorized exchange is the LindeX."

if they meant "not permitted" so why didnt them use "not permitted" instead..

the title of the article says "

There are other exchanges that are operated by third parties on which Linden dollars are exchanged." 

by saying this, they do aknowledge the fact these operators are existing and what they say within the article is that these ones are not affiliated in any way with LL and that "Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk"

i dont see anything here that firmly forbide to anyone to buy or sell with other exchange systems, all i see is that regarding to the new US law they are covering their ass and wont provided any kind of guarantee about these third party system... What imho is not enough for creating any drama...Its just normal imho.

 

 

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filipesax wrote:

I use virwox to exchange my rl money into lindens cause they let me use paysafecard as its the only way i get to use money in game.......  but all the exchange groups now dont make the trade cause this STUPID politic, so i´m without money and i have an paysafecard ticket in my hand with 25 euros i wasted for nothing!!!!!

 

NOW WHAT???

i guess pp need sometimes for steping back and look at this with more objectivity... i bet its normal they stoped trading for now.. Since the new TOS are more than fuzzy on this topic... but pp need to wait some days more and i bet everything will come back to normal... Panic will vanish as soon as pp will take some step back and get a better understanding of the new TOS.

of course it would have been easier if LL has been more clear... but well... 

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After reading the TOS, I don't feel like using SL anymore... :(  - We are not liable of anything you do, but if you do something we don't like, we'll take your money(no refund) and close your account(whenever we -believe- or feel like it)-  So I buy lindens with REAL money, but those lindens are not granted, since problems may appear, software malfunction and those lindens may disappear and I won't be refunded? I really don't understand.

Also I find it impossible to completely comply to the ToS, even the LL team may break some of them by simply logging in and "playing" SL like any other "player" or resident. It's like making a rule to -never- have bad thoughts, or -never- say the word "air", no matter how hard you try to comply to the rules, sometimes it's impossible. A small example could be(from the top of my head): wardrobe malfunction in PG(no nudity) areas.

Yes, this was the first time I read the ToS(I'm ashamed), because I don't want to "sign a paper" in which I agree that LL can use me in a human centipede experiment. LoL

So... if I don't agree with the TOS but still want to log in a SL-like virtual environment, I'll have to create my own SL-like platform with my own rules D:

P.S: there should be a "TOS for dummies" version too.

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WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

the difference between Buy and Sell rates on the Lindex.

Considerably more valuable: interest is earnt (by the seller) on funds earmarked for selling. Floating funds with quick in/out times only measure significant profit by waiting for this interest. Delaying the cash-out process to the maximum is an easy way to increase profit-through-interest, but only provided there's no other game in town.

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WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

One source of income for LL is the difference between Buy and Sell rates on the Lindex.

They don't get that income from the third-party exchanges.

yes but if that's the plan is a really stupid plan.. 

because a lot of resident dont have a credit card (whatever is their reason), and this will mean a lot less money in sl and a bad hard blow for SL economy !

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I used to exchange Linden via simple banktransfer now i am forced to give them either my credit card number or use pay pal. This is not going to happen. Sorry LL but again you shot your own foot. 

 

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WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

As usual, we just have to wait for godot Linden to turn up with the full explanation.

:smileyvery-happy:   Now there's a new meme candidate!  

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Nothing has changed. The wording has been updated to reflect the policy. It doesn't mean you can't get your L$ from any other exchange, if you want to. The LindeX has been the only authorised exchange since 2006. The other exchanges are (as always) unauthorised (but permitted) and the TOS lays out how Linden Lab normally deals with any fraudulent transactions that take place. If English isn't your first language, you might easily misinterpret the usage of the word "authorised" in this context.


So, nothing to see here. It is as it has been for some years now.

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Tateru Nino wrote:

Nothing has changed. The wording has been updated to reflect the policy. It doesn't mean you can't get your L$ from any other exchange, if you want to. The LindeX has been the only authorised exchange since 2006. The other exchanges are (as always) unauthorised (but permitted) and the TOS lays out how Linden Lab normally deals with any fraudulent transactions that take place. If English isn't your first language, you might easily misinterpret the usage of the word "authorised" in this context.

 

So, nothing to see here. It is as it has been for some years now.

this

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but the new tos do state that it is not allowed as in not ok dont do it

 

When you log in to the Second Life Viewer today, you’ll be asked to accept an updated Terms of Service. As with any legal document, it’s important to read in its entirety before accepting, but we wanted to highlight one of the changes we’ve made in this update: to better protect Second Life users against fraud, the updated Terms of Service make it clear that trading of Linden dollars (L$) on exchanges other than the LindeX, Second Life’s official L$ exchange, is not authorized or allowed.

i dont like it, i dont agree with it, but there it is

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Maki Guyot wrote:



As explained
,

"Linden Lab’s support team is telling people that LL is interpreting “not authorized” to mean
“not permitted”
rather than
“not accredited.
"

It's unfortunate, but it will stop my moneyflow altogether.

What is even more important is the reference in that article to the new FinCen Guidance (Regulations).

I read those last January and they have been now updated. 

Essentially it is Guidance* and a Court could find their interpretation and application of the Law was wrong, but that is not a legal battle you really want to get involved in.

 

*1 FinCEN is issuing this guidance under its authority to administer the Bank Secrecy Act. See Treasury Order 180-01 (March 24, 2003). This guidance explains only how FinCEN characterizes certain activities involving virtual currencies under the Bank Secrecy Act and FinCEN regulations. It should not be interpreted as a statement by FinCEN about the extent to which those activities comport with other federal or state statutes, rules, regulations, or orders.

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Not allowed, not authorized, frowned apon, what ever...

As stated elsewhere, it`s like gold sellers in other games, it`s not allowed but it`s done anyway
But if **bleep** hits the fan, you are on your own as the game company coverd it`s ass and LL has now done this aswell
The other exchanges will keep exsisting aslong as they can soak up the fraudulent transactions and comply with the new federal rules, but if they f`up, LL is in the clear and it will have no consequences for SL

LL has to play by the new rules, so i`m happy they care about their own arse (and SL indirectly) by pulling the risk api, kicking the grown up kids out of the house to stand on their own and stop holding their hands

 

If other exchanges will close now due to soaking up nearly 100% of the risk, you know how much fraud there is, otherwise they would remain open heh

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I don't know if I can post the link here but you may want to go to the virwox home page and read their update as well as other 3rd party exchanges. It clears up at the confusion if they can be used anymore.

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Tateru Nino wrote:

Nothing has changed. The wording has been updated to reflect the policy. It doesn't mean you can't get your L$ from any other exchange, if you want to. The LindeX has been the only authorised exchange since 2006. The other exchanges are (as always) unauthorised (but permitted) and the TOS lays out how Linden Lab normally deals with any fraudulent transactions that take place. If English isn't your first language, you might easily misinterpret the usage of the word "authorised" in this context.

 

So, nothing to see here. It is as it has been for some years now.

If the exchanges are reporting that they no longer service second life residents , then no you can't get your money from any other exchange. Seems like the well established exchanges have stopped all L$ activity.

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