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How high up do you own the sky?


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I was flying around in mainland far over the ban-lines when a orb did start to follow me, "This is private property" did it say, "you has 10 seconds co comply". It took me 3 to 4 seconds to see and rad it and in the sky there is no border lines. So I was sent home, but my fluing things did get stuck there, I did try to get back to get it or try to fly of the land, but this time I was kicked home without warning.

It did feel a bit like griefing, ban lines are around 80 meters high to protect privacy on the land, over that I think it shall be called griefing to use security orbs, this one did ban me even I not did see any sky box in the area. I do understand folks that use them to eject folks intruding in a sky box, but not from the empty sky where you not intrude on someones privacy.

What do the rest of you think, securitu orbs, good or grief?

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After the last changes bans work up to 5000m now. So thats the height someone can enforce your absence of their land. An orb can follow you not higher than 4096m though. Thats the limit for your vehicle too. :)

For people with skyboxes that is a good change btw.

So get another sim to fly.

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I would say you own as high as you can build above your land.  That being 4096 meters as of now (LL could increase the build hieght if they want).  The "security" feature that LL provides (the normal ban lines any land owner can enable) only limits access to 50 meters above ground level).  Security "orbs" can be set for any height......they are completely within the SL ToS.  Some people just don't want people entering their invironment and they have that right.........even if it inconveniences you and others.  It's not a form of griefing by any stretch of the imagination but on private estate land the sim owner can limit the use of security devices by forbidding their use in the "Convenant" for the land.  Mainland has no such restrictions.

This has been an off and on argument for years.  Many people hate ban lines and think they should be outlawed.  Those people think it's perfectly okay for them to go anywhere they choose to go without limitations.  Some people think that anyone entering their property uninvited are trespassers and should be banned from the land.  Who's right?  Depends on if you consider SL land as private property and the owner can do what he/she wants with it (within the confines of the ToS) or if you consider SL completely free of all restrictions to all users.  I fall on the side of the land owner has pretty much full control over their land (including who may or may not enter the land boundaries).

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Neither security orbs nor banlines are adequate for people using vehicles.

1: As far as I can tell, your camera has to be within 10m of a banline for it to be visible. Camera positions for many vehicles make this limit pointless. Even without lag effects the banline can be invisible to you when you hit it.

2: Security orbs give no advance waring at all. Warning times, when you cross the trigger boundary are often inadequate for any attempt to back out, and the only practical response with an aircraft seems to be to continue at speed, and try to get through before the Security Orb takes action.

The Grid has changed, and I am not sure the people who use security orbs realise what gormless pratts they are making themselves look

 

 

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i think empty or not you had no right crossing that sky that belongs to the land,, they pay for the land that sky come with it if ppl wast paying for land there be no sky that over the land so yeah i belive they have that right,,ppl that pay for the land is what make sl stay up and running,,  security orbs are good,,you either ageed or not if you was flying over my place i ban you in a heartbeat i dont care what you would think of it .btw you was giveing a warning by your post has you said "This is private property" did it say, "you has 10 seconds co comply".

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WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

Neither security orbs nor banlines are adequate for people using vehicles.

2: Security orbs give no advance waring at all. Warning times, when you cross the trigger boundary are often inadequate for any attempt to back out, and the only practical response with an aircraft seems to be to continue at speed, and try to get through before the Security Orb takes action.

 

 

It depends on the orb's creator.  I own one that can be set to give up to 60 seconds (1 minute) warning with other settings to either send the person to another point in the sim or back to their home point.  I agree 10 seconds is barely long enough to read the warning, but I do think a minute should be sufficient.

As Peggy said, this debate has been going on ad infinitum.  The grid may have changed but this debate hasn't. :smileywink:  One such debate years ago was initiated on the forums by a guy who enjoyed traveling via hot air balloon to sightsee and complained that there was no way to get a slow-moving vehicle out of a security orb's path in 10 seconds (which again, I do agree with, but I also support a land-owner's right *to* the orb if they are not breaking ToS, which an orb is not).  I already live 4,000m in the sky so doubt he'd be flying over my home anyway, but many on that thread came to an "agreement" that skyhomes should have a minimum of something like 500m to not impede sight-seeing flying vehicles.

Awhile later, someone who flew a jet of some sort complained that wasn't high enough.  Can't please everyone.

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In real world, if I buy a million dollar property with an anti-air missile system and shoot down every commercial and private airplanes which fly through my property a few hundred meters above the sky for privacy's sake, I'd go to jail. Or killed by a SWAT team raiding my property.

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That's true.  However, anyone can apply for a restricted airspace above their property.  Whether or not your application is approved is another story (you'll need a very good reason to restrict airspace anywhere in the United States).  Then, if you do have restricted airspace above your property it must be published on all aeronautical charts and all traffic control has to be made aware of the restriction.  It then becomes the responsibility of every pilot flying near that restricted space to avoid it.  But, even if the airspace is violated you still cannot fire a SAM to take the violator out......that's the "ToS" of the United States.  You can only report the violation and wait for the FAA to do whatever it is they will do.

Not too unlike SL.......but that notification to the flyers in the area is that warning from the security orb or that red ban line.  And, of course, it's impossible to "take out" the violator like a SAM would.  You can just bounce the intruder somewhere.  Making comparisons to RL sometimes gets tricky.......in this case the comparison is very weak.

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I'd say a closer comparison would be a RL home alarm system that makes a ruckus to (a) alert the home owner to an intruder and, depending on said home owner and (in the US) what state, the intruder may get more than he bargained for or (b) intruder leaves due to the alarm having blown his cover.  Still no real great comparison for SL, but sort of a mash of the two: SL owner has an alarm to alert the "intruder" to leave or the orb acts as the owner might if home and ejects said intruder...one way or the other.

Either way, this debate has been going on for years and, since orbs are not against the LL ToS, ranting about them is basically an exercise in futility.

Edit to add: this post wasn't aimed at you, Peggy...just hit reply below your post instead of the thread reply. :)

 

 

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"...

Either way, this debate has been going on for years and, since orbs are not against the LL ToS, ranting about them is basically an exercise in futility."

-------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, it is.  :)  But it's been a while since this "debate" has come up again and, at the moment, I'm having fun with it.  :matte-motes-sunglasses-1:

 

Edit..........

I don't mind that you directed the post to me..........I'm easy that way.  :)

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Kennylex Luckless wrote:

I was flying around in mainland far over the ban-lines when a orb did start to follow me, "This is private property" did it say, "you has 10 seconds co comply". It took me 3 to 4 seconds to see and rad it and in the sky there is no border lines. So I was sent home, but my fluing things did get stuck there, I did try to get back to get it or try to fly of the land, but this time I was kicked home without warning.

It did feel a bit like griefing, ban lines are around 80 meters high to protect privacy on the land, over that I think it shall be called griefing to use security orbs, this one did ban me even I not did see any sky box in the area. I do understand folks that use them to eject folks intruding in a sky box, but not from the empty sky where you not intrude on someones privacy.

What do the rest of you think, securitu orbs, good or grief?

I've never been a fan of security orbs, and have found the majority of people who feel the need to use them are too paranoid, or 'power'-hungry.  Certainly on the mainland, I think the sky should be free and available for everyone to use, and anyone who really wants to grief someone, isn't going to give two hoots about a pathetic little security orb, they'll always find a way.

And that's my little unimportant opinion on this topic.







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I also enjoy flying and boating in SL. Even so, I come down on the side of the landowner's right to restrict access to their land because they pay for it., mainland or not.  

No one has an inherent right to fly anywhere they please in SL. To rail against a landowner who chooses to restrict access to his property because he is violating your right to fly is as silly as saying that an area that does not allow rezzing or object entry is violating your rights because you can't rez your plane, or that all landowners should be restricted from using all their prims and be required to leave enough free at all times so you can bring your aircraft onto their property.

Comparing SL to RL is silly. Getting ejected may be an inconvenience but it is not the same as being shot at in RL.

There are plenty of places to fly in SL  You can also obtain land where there are restrictions on ban lines and security systems so that people can fly and boat unimpeded.  Until I got my own sim I lived in such a place that consisted of over 100 sims for just this reason.  You can also obtain your own estate and set the rules.  If you can't or won't spend the money to do one of these things, you can't require other people to spend their money  and be forced to accommodate you.

 

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But the question is (was):

"What do the rest of you think, securitu orbs, good or grief?"

I can't say I'm a fan of security orbs or ban lines.  But I certainly don't hate them either.  People use them for various reasons (not just paronoia).  I can think of some situations when I wished I had a security orb (though I've never owned or had one).  When I was heavy into building flexible skirts, I would occassionally have some newbie (or some just plain jerk) would plop himself down on my platform (at 4000 meters, by the way) and get in the way.......or stike up some conversation that I'm not interested in at all.  I hated to eject and ban but there were times when that was exactly what I did......and mute too so that I didn't have to listen to him whine.  That's not being paranoid.  It's wanting to be left alone so I can enjoy my SL (I own the land and because of that I have the right to restrict who can bother me).

Security orbs are not a griefing tool.......that have a purpose (a legitamate purpose) and they are not against any ToS rule.  I'm sorry if it's inconventient for you or makes your flying around the grid difficult.......well not really, but I'm trying to be polite here.  I see the problem with them......but that does not negate my desire to be left alone when I want to be left alone.

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Oh did I misunderstand the original question?  Is my only option to answer "good" or "grief"? LOL

Hate is too strong a word. Security orbs are a minor irritation to me, and I'm not in the habit of disturbing anyone who wishes to be alone.  I can understand people wishing to put security in place around precious breedables, or something that it's possible to disturb and damage, but while a landowner is not even logged into world, it does seem a bit farcical to be quite so territorial over virtual land, just because "I pay for it". 

In the olden days, security orbs would sometimes cause me to go offline, which was a bigger irritation to me than it is currently. 

I do not personally care if there are security orbs in world or not really; have I said that they are just a minor irritation to me?  You, my darling Peggy, of whom I am extremely fond, are "a funniosity".  If I ever run/fly/TP into your ejector orb area unintentionally and it ejects me, then I shall mutter cuss words under my breath, but I shall still like you, all the same. :matte-motes-big-grin:

There ain't nowt so strange as folks.

Edited to add...

And look, I had logged out of the forums, and was intending to go to bed about 20 minutes ago, but because I like you, I took the time and trouble to log back in again to give you a reply.  

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Kennylex Luckless wrote:

 

What do the rest of you think, securitu orbs, good or grief?

I keep one limited to inside the walls of my home, set to 1 second. To get to it, you've gone past a door set to locked. There no excuse for that, so no warning needed.

- You can smack into the sides of the walls of the building all you want and not get zapped. Go over to the other side and you will. There's a small spot on the roof that overlaps a little outside. but only because its a depression lower than the main roof. I might solve this with a trans prim actually... that'd be the best solution.

 

I've got another in a sky build a few thousand meters up - not sure on its setting. But its over 2000m up - so I'm not exactly concerned about what happens to someone who snoops around up there.

 

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i don't have to worry about  it really.nobody can get to my sim...but still..if they could .i would rather them be able to fly over quickly than not at all..if i used one .they would have plenty of time to make it to the other side..

but even when i only lived on a 1024..i never had a problem really with many people dropping in..i have an orb .but i haven't used it since i was renting back in like 2006..

and that was only for the inside of my house..i don't care what people do on the outside .as long as they are not giving others a hard time..

if they do.then they would see a good boot to their house..where my orb would only push them to the outside of my house before..

either way..land owners have the right to do pretty much whatever they wish within the tos on their land..

so them enjoying the freedom of that land and others not liking how they do it..no that's not griefing..

that's them exercising their right to those freedoms they pay for..they could put walls all the way to the top of the build limit if they wanted..it would still be their right..no matter how many dislike it..

 

 

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I don't own a security orb.  Never have I ever owned a secuity orb. And I have absolutely no desire to own a security orb.  My point was (and remains) security orbs have a purpose (some good like my example and some that border on paraniona).  I can understand both sides of the problem......lord knows I've been bounced to some sim other than the one I was in due a security orb).  But it's not against any ToS and the owner of the land has the right to set his/her land to allow or not allow anyone to enter........whether or not they are on line or not.  I think I've said I'm all that fond of security orbs.....but I don't hold it against anyone who happens to be love with there orbs either.

To each their own is my stance.  So they are "good" if I have to choose between to two options.

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I love ban lines and security orbs because it tells me the owners are trying to hide something or want privacy. Usually when I encounter them, I get far enough away not to be sent home and then cam all over the parcel to see what I am not suppose to. If the owner is there, I then IM him/her and ask how they are doing, what they like, and why they have such tight security. Usually they are very happy to answer my questions, especially while banging their companion(s) or doing whatever activities they wanted privacy for. I find this is a great way to meet and make new friends! I highly recommend any new residents try this type of thing too; it is a great way to learn about Second Life and gain a popular reputation around the grid! :)

 

 

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Nuhai Ling wrote:

I love ban lines and security orbs because it tells me the owners are trying to hide something or want privacy. Usually when I encounter them, I get far enough away not to be sent home and then cam all over the parcel to see what I am not suppose to. If the owner is there, I then IM him/her and ask how they are doing, what they like, and why they have such tight security. Usually they are very happy to answer my questions, especially while banging their companion(s) or doing whatever activities they wanted privacy for. I find this is a great way to meet and make new friends! I highly recommend any new residents try this type of thing too; it is a great way to learn about Second Life and gain a popular reputation around the grid!
:)

You can prevent to cam into and out of parcels. So I suggest you tell that the residents you are IM'ing and try to make it before they mute you. Will give your life a new sense maybe. :)

For the orbs in general it doesn't matter if the land owners are on a "mine mine mine" trip or just want to get rid of fools that fly around in front of their noses.

There is no free flight zone in SL ! So if you can fly around - good - if not - go elsewhere.

 

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Nuhai Ling wrote:

I love ban lines and security orbs because it tells me the owners are trying to hide something or want privacy. Usually when I encounter them, I get far enough away not to be sent home and then cam all over the parcel to see what I am not suppose to. If the owner is there, I then IM him/her and ask how they are doing, what they like, and why they have such tight security. Usually they are very happy to answer my questions, especially while banging their companion(s) or doing whatever activities they wanted privacy for. I find this is a great way to meet and make new friends! I highly recommend any new residents try this type of thing too; it is a great way to learn about Second Life and gain a popular reputation around the grid!
:)

 

 

the thing is.. some new people will take you serious and believe what you just said..

be honest ..you just wanna know whats goin on over there hehehehe

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I think ban lines are bad, for that do not protect the privacy and if they are close to LL road system it is easy to get stuck in them and that kills a lot of the fun. I can understans securitu orbs protecting a skybox, but not orbs that protects the whole space by following users or push users, for me is this kind of the same to say it is mine land and therefor I am allowed to grief users here.

I want the rules to bi like this: Ban lines go 96m in the sky, over that folk shall be allowed to pass, but it shall be okay to use orbs that kicks folks from a build/skybox, if you want higher privacy or bo not like the free spirit of main land you get or rent land on a private estate.

So to answer my own question about orbs so do I think they shall be classed sa grief if they follow user and not is stationary protecting a smaller area.

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I don't own a security orb.  Never have I ever owned a secuity orb. And I have absolutely no desire to own a security orb.  My point was (and remains) security orbs have a purpose (some good like my example and some that border on paraniona).  I can understand both sides of the problem......lord knows I've been bounced to some sim other than the one I was in due a security orb).  But it's not against any ToS and the owner of the land has the right to set his/her land to allow or not allow anyone to enter........whether or not they are on line or not.  I think I've said I'm all that fond of security orbs.....but I don't hold it against anyone who happens to be love with there orbs either.

To each their own is my stance.  So they are "good" if I have to choose between to two options.

My stance is "grief" if I have to choose.  The OP has since answered his own question, and placed his opinion somewhere in the middle of "good" and "grief". 

Ironically I do have ejector orbs in my inventory, created by one of my favourite gadget makers in the whole of SL.  They came as part of a large box of gadgets that I purchased when they were on special offer.  The only time I ever used an ejector orb was when I kept Sion chickens for a while, but this backfired on me when I was unable to log in on my main account for a few days, and when in on an alt account, I couldn't get close enough to the chickens to put food in for them, and many of the little buggers died! (laughing in real life - SL is so crazy).

Second irony is that, although I don't like ejector orbs, I have passed my spare ones onto other people who have asked about security.  As you say, they're not against Terms of Service.  In spite of my own personal opinions about things, I always work with the Terms of Service.  Some call it having double standards, but I just call it being open-minded. I know that I am not always right.

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Kennylex Luckless wrote:

I think ban lines are bad, for that do not protect the privacy and if they are close to LL road system it is easy to get stuck in them and that kills a lot of the fun. I can understans securitu orbs protecting a skybox, but not orbs that protects the whole space by following users or push users, for me is this kind of the same to say it is mine land and therefor I am allowed to grief users here.

I want the rules to bi like this: Ban lines go 96m in the sky, over that folk shall be allowed to pass, but it shall be okay to use orbs that kicks folks from a build/skybox, if you want higher privacy or bo not like the free spirit of main land you get or rent land on a private estate.

So to answer my own question about orbs so do I think they shall be classed sa grief if they follow user and not is stationary protecting a smaller area.

here is a post i made over at SLU about banlines and the joy they can bring to those that  know this little trick hehehe

From SLU

"i remember discovering that if you went up to the top of them and got ontop of banlines..it was like a trampoline..

 

me and some of my friends used to look for them and bounce on them..it was something to do when we were bored hehehe

 

anytime someone mentions banlines i always think about back when we used to look for them.. we couldn't do all kinds of trick or anything..but it would be neat if you could..

i would still be looking for them today if we could..

imagine doing this on someones banlines that had them up and them catching you..lol"

i may have to  see if there is a full perm trampoline on the MP and get the animations out of it and go do some banline jumping..it's been awhile and it was fun hehehe

 

 

 

 

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Nuhai Ling wrote:

I love ban lines and security orbs because it tells me the owners are trying to hide something or want privacy. Usually when I encounter them, I get far enough away not to be sent home and then cam all over the parcel to see what I am not suppose to. If the owner is there, I then IM him/her and ask how they are doing, what they like, and why they have such tight security. Usually they are very happy to answer my questions, especially while banging their companion(s) or doing whatever activities they wanted privacy for. I find this is a great way to meet and make new friends! I highly recommend any new residents try this type of thing too; it is a great way to learn about Second Life and gain a popular reputation around the grid!
:)

 

 

I did chortle. 

If anything is going to set off my curiousity it is an ejector orb around what I know are traffic bots.  Then I just MUST go in and get photos.

Two dots in a skybox, though, and I politely and discreetly make myself very scarce very quickly (well, usually :matte-motes-wink-tongue:)

thunberg bots.jpg

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Ceka Cianci wrote:


Kennylex Luckless wrote:

I think ban lines are bad, for that do not protect the privacy and if they are close to LL road system it is easy to get stuck in them and that kills a lot of the fun. I can understans securitu orbs protecting a skybox, but not orbs that protects the whole space by following users or push users, for me is this kind of the same to say it is mine land and therefor I am allowed to grief users here.

I want the rules to bi like this: Ban lines go 96m in the sky, over that folk shall be allowed to pass, but it shall be okay to use orbs that kicks folks from a build/skybox, if you want higher privacy or bo not like the free spirit of main land you get or rent land on a private estate.

So to answer my own question about orbs so do I think they shall be classed sa grief if they follow user and not is stationary protecting a smaller area.

here is a post i made over at SLU about banlines and the joy they can bring to those that  know this little trick hehehe

From SLU

"i remember discovering that if you went up to the top of them and got ontop of
banlines
..it was like a trampoline..

 

me and some of my friends used to look for them and bounce on them..it was something to do when we were bored hehehe

 

anytime someone mentions
banlines
i always think about back when we used to look for them.. we couldn't do all kinds of trick or anything..but it would be neat if you could..

i would still be looking for them today if we could..

imagine doing this on someones
banlines
that had them up and them catching you..lol"

i may have to  see if there is a full perm trampoline on the MP and get the animations out of it and go do some banline jumping..it's been awhile and it was fun hehehe

 

 

 

 

The neighbours across the road from here (in real life) have got a trampoline out in their front garden and they are out at work, and I am so tempted. Unfortunately the other neighbours are not out at work, so I just daren't... oh but I really wanna.

And I really wanna go banline trampolining too.

Methinks I am gonna get banned from somewhere today - but will it be in SL or in RL? hehe :matte-motes-big-grin-squint:

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