TOS and the vulnerable adult players

[Tari Landar]

I've personally seen ARs be effective. Are they always 100% effective? NO, nothing is. Not even reporting things in rl is always 100% effective. But there is one advantage we have online, that we don't  have in rl. That is that we can get away (usually, most of the time even) and not have to see/read/hear that which we don't want to. Of course that's not always the case. But in rl, you can't mute people. You can't derender them. You can't put people on some magical blacklist(this really is a bad idea, no matter where you try it). Even a protection order isn't always going to guarantee someone stays away from you-and breaking those usually holds a legal penalty. But in sl, yeah, you can basically issue your own self an order of protection against those you wish to be away from-in most instances.

You can't say ARs are ineffective simply because yours might have been. There may be many reasons as to why. You may not be taking all the precautions you possibly can. You may not have filed it correctly(hey, humans make mistakes, all of us). You may be dealing with someone who is just going to test every single boundary until none remain. Does it make their treatment right? Of course not. I'm not going to say "it's your fault, because you're not doing all you can to prevent it", but I will say that MOST people who complain are not doing all they can. Those truly hell bent on doing whatever they can to ruin the experience of another, will be determined and will likely stop at nothing. Most griefers don't fall under that umbrella though. Most fall somewhere below that, and they actually do have a threshold they won't cross. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to find out what that is before you can really make them go away.

I will say that giving them more attention, is honestly what most of them want to begin with. All it will do is feed into their childish antics. It certainly won't make things better. You can mute people, you can derender them, you can make sure friends of yours also know what's going on in case they too get involved-that includes places you're a regular patron should that become an issue, you can follow all the proper AR procedures using the tools LL gives us, you can simply choose to ignore(a hard one, yes, but not impossible)...there really are a lot of things we can do to rid ourselves of people, places and things we wish to be rid of. That doesn't mean the AR process is always going to stop everyone, or everything. It's just not possible. It's entirely possible to have someone ARd, they get a temporary ban, and then come back either on their usual av or an alt-or they get someone else in their place. That's not unusual at all. If you want LL to be able to keep a hold on that type of person regardless of what account or computer they use, you're asking for too much. That's not a reasonable expectation. Not when, as I said, people who are hell bent on doing these things, can get around just about anything LL wants to throw at them. Especially if they aren't breaking any rl laws. Again, not condoning their behavior, just saying it's not as easy to stop as you might think.

I'm not sticking up for griefers, far from it. I've seen people treated so badly they up and leave sl for good. I've seen one girl treated so badly she decided her life wasn't worth living(granted this began in sl, but escalated far beyond that). I won't condone what happened to her, or anyone-even the mildest form of griefing. But I also won't pretend everyone does everything they can possibly do, when they come across folks like that.  There comes a time when we, as adults(because we all are, right?) have to say "enough is enough, I'm not going to let someone else ruin my day", and move on. Will it stop everything? No. I don't know how many times that needs to be said. There is NOTHING anyone, including LL, can do to stop everyone or even the majority of people. We have far more power in our own hands than we seem to think we do, though.

ARs do work, about as often as their rl counterpart works. In the meantime, you've got to use whatever tools you have available to you, for yourself.(of course, without stooping down to the level of that which you're trying to fight). I would NEVER support some group, any group, having any sort of list, as suggested here. Humans make mistakes, humans are a judgmental species, and humans can be quite manipulative when we want to be. I don't want some other human judging whether or not I belong on some list, simply because I pissed off the wrong person, on the wrong day, under the wrong moon. If you think that couldn't possibly happen, you are fooling yourself. Groups like this have existed in sl for years, they do not work, and are often more problematic than the folks they stick on their little lists. It's another form of griefing, when you think about it. No better than the original act. It doesn't matter how vulnerable an adult, or even child, is. We still have all the same tools available to us and are expected to utilize them to the best of our ability. When that doesn't work, that's what the AR is for. If that still doesn't work you've got a choice to make. Either move on and make that which you dislike disappear from your sl, or move on from sl in general. Harsh? Maybe. Sometimes life decisions are harsh. A list(or group, whatever it is you want), is not and never will be, the answer. I can guarantee you that. That's like creating a wall of fame for griefers. Great way to stroke their ego, bad way to eliminate them.

[Brenda Connolly]

LL's wheels of Justice move slowly, sort of like a shopping cart with the one wheel that refuses to go in the same direction as the others. It seems like they aren't doing anything, but one area where they are pretty good with is anything having to do with child abuse, ageplay and pedophilia. If the person you mention does have a record, and LL has received information about it, they will deal with it. One thing to note, LL NEVER discloses the details of disciplinary action, even if you are the aggreived person filing the AR.

On the TOS. You may not like it, it may not make sense in places, but it's there. If you want to use SL you have to abide by it. If not, you are free to go somewhere else.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Princess Gata wrote:

can I just add that in the last week one of the kids in a family I am with

had rl pedophile convictions

, and that when I tried to make a report on another with evidence **bleep** all was done for like ages. Oh yeah, AR works right? I have distanced myself from the rl. pead who was thrown out of the close group when it was discovered. So yeah, AR is so helpful - excuse my sarcasm

---

 

and you know this how? do you have their RL name and address?  I can tell you from first hand experience that a person in SL that has or is trying to have age play sex will get banned.

I was approached by a female child av who wanted a "daddy" to punish and teach her how to be a "woman". she sent me numerous IMs and I ARed her, in less than 3 days her av was gone. She sent me a message on FB (because the link is in my profile) bitching me out for reporting her. Not that LL told her, but she was assuming. Correctly i might add.

But to "name and shame" someone in the forums? seriously? LL can check chat and IM logs, we cant. so we have no proof other than your word that something happened.. talk about a one sided cluster fudge.

[Princess Gata]

righty yeah, a one sided cluster fudge

First of all I got his name out of him, was already smelling suspicious because he had told people different stories. What I found was his conviction in the state of Florida, apparently for abuse involving a minor in 96. This person is incredibly worrying and has many different SL identities. A member of the family caught two of them, both children, having a little play on the sex bed. So yeah, I do actually make sure I know what am talking about before I make accusations.

 

It would sure help also if there was anj in world person you could report to.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

So, what you mean is, you found out in the last week that the RL person behind a child av in your family had a RL conviction 16 years ago. And they were on a sex bed with another child av. were they ARed? if not, why? if yes, why are we talking about it? case closed.

 

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Princess Gata wrote:

righty yeah, a one sided cluster fudge

First of all I got his name out of him, was already smelling suspicious because he had told people different stories. What I found was his conviction in the state of Florida, apparently for abuse involving a minor in 96. This person is incredibly worrying and has many different SL identities. A member of the family caught two of them, both children, having a little play on the sex bed. So yeah, I do actually make sure I know what am talking about before I make accusations.

 

It would sure help also if there was anj in world person you could report to.

---

did they Ar those that were having this play on this sex bed?

if they did and it still didn't stick..then something is wrong with how they are being AR'd..

make sure to get snap shots and also stick to details and keep emotions out of Ar's..

date and time and location are very important..and using the LL AR snapshot feature..

 

[Melita Magic]

There is nothing stopping you from making your own watchdog blog.

 

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

<<it can feel too real and not a game that you can tp out of>>

Except that it IS a game you can TP out of.

Sorry, but people are respoinsible for their own selves. If they are not mature enough to log the heck out of the game or tp to a different spot, then they don't need to be playing.

If the harassment, or whatever you are referring to was at a level that warranted any action other than Mute and TP, it would be AR worthy. Don't expect people to make special rules for those who cannot separate reality from a game.

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

<<Let me be the first to volunteer to have my name put on that list.  Because, honestly... anyone stupid enough to give any credence to some arbitrary list of supposed evil-doers, to which anyone can be added for any reason, needs to stay as far away from me as possible>>

I second this!

[Ceka Cianci]

these black lists always remind me of this..because they always end up getting abused..

 

[Melita Magic]

For every abusive personality there is a personality susceptible to abuse. 

In this person's post I gather they are referring to adults who have been abused as children, or have a traumatic real life past. They might overreact compared to what most other people might do when confronted with the same person. But the abusive personality types seek out the ones who do react. They can control their actions; the ones reacting cannot control their reactions as easily. They probably should not be in those situations, but they might be drawn to them for that very reason: In order to work out some past trauma(s.)

In short, telling them to just hit the X does not usually help them. It doesn't give them insight. It doesn't protect them or teach them how to stand up for themselves against a bully or whatever is going on in their Second Life social circles. We should probably assume if they could hit the X and never log in again, they'd have done that. 

I don't know if I'm right, but I have noticed in all of these topics over the years, it never plays out as "hit the X." So it's useless to suggest that. I'm not saying it's not a good idea, just that in these topics, it's ignored. 

Something not always understood about the abuse dynamic is that later events can trigger the same emotions. It is a form of PTSD. The people should probably get some real life help in identifying and dealing with, if not avoiding, those triggers. We can't really help them here. Those triggers will be different for each person, and require professional insight. ETA: And that is why even if they do hit the X, (log out), they remain upset afterward, as each one of them in each one of these topics has said. They have already been 'triggered' and their emotions are powerful flashbacks.

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

<<can I just add that in the last week one of the kids in a family I am with had rl paedophile convictions>>

Why are you sharing personal information with people in SL? How do you know this person is a pedo?

<<and that when I tried to make a report on another with evidence **bleep** all was done for like ages>>

I don't think you can AR people for something they supposedly did in RL.

I have no snuggly feelings for pedophiles, but to be honest, you have no proof that any person is a pedo. You cannot accuse people of being pedo in SL just because they approach a child avi. While that is nasty, in all reality that child avi is NOT a child at all. 

Really, I see this as a demand for LL and everyone to play along with your RP by acting like child avi's are actually helpless children who cannot take care of themselves. If you are having problems with "pedo" avis harassing your "child" avis, then try keeping your RP to a private area. Be more careful about who you allow into your RP. Heck, keep your list of naughty avis if you want. It won't do much of anything though.

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

<<I was approached by a female child av who wanted a "daddy" to punish and teach her how to be a "woman". she sent me numerous IMs and I ARed her, in less than 3 days her av was gone. She sent me a message on FB (because the link is in my profile) bitching me out for reporting her. Not that LL told her, but she was assuming. Correctly i might add.>>

So sick!

This is why I believe that her complaints are not of that nature. She says there isn't enough evidence for AR- well then I can only assume that no one actually made attempts at age-play sex. 

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

<<both children, having a little play on the sex bed>>

Why on earth is there a sex bed where child RP is taking place???

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

I totally get that there are people who have emotional issues and even learning/intellectual disabilities. It is not LL's job to babysit people with special needs though.

Seriously, it is sad that people feel like they can't walk away, but the only thing to do is to tell them exactly that. Keeping lists of "naughty avis" and expecting everyone in SL to walk on eggshells over someone's emotional needs is just not going to work either.

Besides logging out- I gave some good advice. Limit RP to private areas. Check out RP friends carefully. Those things will protect them from harassment.

[Melita Magic]

Just to address some of the practical points or questions you raised:

There can sometimes be an 'adult' bed or other things in a house shared by 'family' in Second Life. Of course, the kid avatars should never use any of that, or be present while it is in use. That question has been asked before in the forums, even in the old forums. (I'm referring to the reallly old forums of long ago.) The people who roleplay families (which I never have, but it's gotten so these threads are very predictable - only so many questions and answers apply) compare it to adult activity taking place in real life when kids are not around, but it happens in the same house. 

It should only be on Moderate or Adult land, though, so one way might be to restrict child roleplay to General land. Which is along the lines of  what  you suggested.

Second point: I don't think anyone is asking Linden Lab to "babysit people with special needs," including the original poster. If a TOS rule has been broken, it is appropriate to abuse-report it. I didn't see her ask more than that.

I also didn't interpret the topic as "expecting everyone in SL to walk on eggshells," but maybe I missed something.

There might - might - be some value in a blog that listed things that had happened to some of the child avatars, only in warning other child avatars who to avoid. I would hope the blog would be done with simply stating what happened, no embellishment, very little to no editorializing, and that it would seek to avoid drama. (That, admittedly, does seem to go against what most blogs seek, on all counts.) If they feel that imperiled, maybe something like that, shared only in their own circles, could help them.

Limiting roleplay to 'private areas' is not fully addressing the problem, since the poster said the person or people had infiltrated the families, and social circles of those in question. I think that is why they felt rattled, if I interpreted all they said correctly.

It seems they are trying to "check RP friends out carefully" and that is why she asked so many questions. I am unclear on how she stumbled upon the two avs going at it, though.

Your advice was not bad, I just am trying to give another perspective, and to take their concerns seriously. I'm not saying you aren't.

 

 

[JeanneAnne]

---

Princess Gata wrote:

I seem to be having a bit of an issue with the TOS rule of not naming offenders and abusers. I feel that unless they are known about then they can continue to hurt others until someone finally gets enough on them to make an official report. There are, among kid community, quite a number of vulnerable and easily abused grown ups who can easily fall prey to some less desirable characters. I believe that there should be people in world you can go to who have lists of names of all potential abusers.

Bringing this here in the hope that others will agree with me and we can make a

peaceful

campaign for change.

 

princess gata

---

The idea of a people inworld who will come down on 'griefers' or abusers is a very bad idea. It's been tried by the so-called "justice league" ~a group of self-appointed super hero role-players~ & has led to all kindsuv abuse. Be careful what you ask for. The cure can be worse than the disease.

Jeanne

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

No, I need to re-word that- I am not suggesting that LL restrict child RP to general land, I don't get into all that, I don't know how it would impact players. My suggestion is that child avis who are concerned about "predatory adult" avis should restrict their own gameplay to safe places.

As for the sex bed, obviously it can be just like an RL family situation, but really, where ARE the parents??? (joke!)

In her OP, she suggested that there should be some sort of list keeper IW to keep track of avis whom she considers to be of concern. That would not do a bit of good for many reasons. How would it be distributed? By whom? Who would verify a given avis risk of being naughty? There are too many issues with defamation and harassment to make this at all viable on top of the other issues. 

<<There might - might - be some value in a blog that listed things that had happened to some of the child avatars, only in warning other child avatars who to avoid>>

This, totally. Also on blogs there is no reach of TOS. I still don't agree with naming names unless those avis had actually solicited or performed sex as/with a child avi. The OP mentioned avis whom she felt posed a risk of that behavior. No one can predict who will do an offense and it would be totally wrong to list those avis anywhere, ever.

No one has any way of proving someone is or could be a predator. I take people's security concerns very seriously, on all sides. It is unfortunate that the solution for those who *feel* victimized is most often Log Out. But without trampling on everyone else's right to use the software within TOS, there isn't much to do. If someone solicits a child avi or child avis are caught having sex- Screenshot, chat log, AR. I have no doubt at all that LL will put an end to that behavior in very short time

[JeanneAnne]

---

Rinichi wrote:

Me and my friends have been stalked and hurassed by ONE woman since about Janurary and LL has done NOTHING to stop it. No, the AR process is bunk. I can see LL having a weekly bondfire with all the AR ticktes they print out.

---

You're right about the AR process. In 2010 LL fired 30% of their staff. They don't have enuf employees to monitor ARs, so it does no good to file them. This does not mean, however, that a group of users ought to take it upon themselves to wage war on so-called "griefers" in SL. When they  do, they become worse griefers than the griefers are. This has already happened.

So what do you do if you are being stalked? Ignore it. If you fite back the bully gets his or her jollies & keeps it up, but if you ignore them they give up & move on to their next victim. Simple as that.

Jeanne

[Perrie Juran]

AR's do work.  Not as consistently or as quickly as we'd like to see them work.  But they do work.  I know of three now in this category. Drake has mentioned an incident.  I have one (One of the only two AR's I have ever filed......and no I don't go looking for them) and then there is a person who no longer posts to this Forum.  He was trying to entrap people in this category.  Of course LL had no way of knowing he was just trying to "entrap people."

But I do also know of two people who have been falsely accused and that sucks big time too.  One of them no longer posts here because of the abuse they got.

I do think based on many posts I have read in this Forum a lot of AR's are just people being b*tt hurt about something someone said.  There are a few incidents that based on what the person said  we have all wondered why at least according to what the person has said why the AR did not appear to have effect.

It is a good thing that naming and shaming is not allowed here.  It only takes one false accusation to ruin a person's life. 

If the OP has the proof, then they need to and should use the procedures LL has in place.  But they also need to make sure they have all their ducks lined up.

 

And Dres, I was replying in general, but for some dumb reason the Forum made it look like I was replying to you.  Sorry bout that.

 

[Marianne McCann]

---

Princess Gata wrote:

I seem to be having a bit of an issue with the TOS rule of not naming offenders and abusers. I feel that unless they are known about then they can continue to hurt others until someone finally gets enough on them to make an official report. There are, among kid community, quite a number of vulnerable and easily abused grown ups who can easily fall prey to some less desirable characters. I believe that there should be people in world you can go to who have lists of names of all potential abusers.

Bringing this here in the hope that others will agree with me and we can make a

peaceful

campaign for change.

---

I'm afraid I cant agree. So-called "Naming and shaming" leads to far more troubles that it solves. If you don't have enough evidence to file an AR, then you really don't have enough evidence to be "naming and shaming." I'm sorry.

[Marianne McCann]

---

Princess Gata wrote:

righty yeah, a one sided cluster fudge

First of all I got his name out of him, was already smelling suspicious because he had told people different stories. What I found was his conviction in the state of Florida, apparently for abuse involving a minor in 96. This person is incredibly worrying and has many different SL identities.

A member of the family caught two of them, both children, having a little play on the sex bed.

So yeah, I do actually make sure I know what am talking about before I make accusations.

---

That, of course, is a violation. Category Age > Ageplay. And, FWIW, I've found that it be a very effective category. 

[Melita Magic]

"No, I need to re-word that- I am not suggesting that LL restrict child RP to general land, I don't get into all that, I don't know how it would impact players. My suggestion is that child avis who are concerned about "predatory adult" avis should restrict their own gameplay to safe places."

Yes, exactly as I understood it. That understanding was not totally clear in my reply. But I knew what you meant. And that's what my response was to. 

I agree that (ETA: for Linden Lab) to restrict child avatars, or any avatar in and of itself, to only one part of Second Life grid, is a mistake. (I do think it's best to restrict people of certain real life ages - under 18 or whatever - to G land. "Better safe than sorry" although imperfect - hard to enforce.)

But trying to stick to G land *might be* one way in which child avatars can try to vouchsafe their own Second Life, although I've seen sex beds pull up right next to a children's park in Second Life. Some of the beds stayed, and some left. (I guess because some had poseballs disabled, but, easy enough to turn those on again! So I thought all the sex beds should've been yanked from the G land adjacent to the park. I'm zero tolerance with stuff like that, personally.)

G land isn't impermeable to those with bad intent, though, or to rezzing any old type of bed, or equipment, unfortunately, so it could still happen. Also, the idea that kid avs should stick to G land tends to feed into that "out of my SL" mentality in which kid avs can't even go to malls or shops that happen to be on moderate land. I don't like that type of net nannying on other residents' parts. Not within SL. What people do or say in outside blogs is their own business. (I don't generally read blogs.)

"No one can predict who will do an offense and it would be totally wrong to list those avis anywhere, ever."

Yes, that amounts to gossip*. Keeping the blog - outside SL environs - to things that actually happened is a crucial point, I agree. (If it is to happen at all, and I can understand why it might be helpful for some to know that.)

"Screenshot, chat log, AR. I have no doubt at all that LL will put an end to that behavior in very short time"

I would hope so, and I think that is almost always the case. But, I have seen things fall through cracks as well, so I don't know what their standard is. 

 

 *ETA I think certain types of offenders/ex cons are not allowed in Second Life, so ARing that is within resident TOS. And, while violating privacy, thus a complex issue, I can understand why they might want to tell others about a sex offender conviction in the hypothetical blog. But, what if they are wrong? So it does come down to gossip. In the case of an AR, Linden Lab can look more into it, so that lifts it above gossip in that case.

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Princess Gata wrote:

righty yeah, a one sided cluster fudge

First of all I got his name out of him, was already smelling suspicious because he had told people different stories. What I found was his conviction in the state of Florida, apparently for abuse involving a minor in 96. This person is incredibly worrying and has many different SL identities. A member of the family caught two of them, both children, having a little play on the sex bed. So yeah, I do actually make sure I know what am talking about before I make accusations.

 

It would sure help also if there was anj in world person you could report to.

---

Sorry, I'm a bit confused here.   First, did he tell you his RL name was such-and-such and that he had been convicted "apparently" for abuse involving a minor in 96, or did he tell you his RL name and such-and-such and you later discovered that someone of that name had "apparently" been convicted in Florida in 96 for abuse involving a minor?

And second, has he actually told you, "these are all my alts" or have you deduced this somehow?  

And third, since clearly you think he is not to be trusted, why are you sure he was telling you the truth about his name and all his alts?

[Pussycat Catnap]

I feel its a foolish policy to not allow naming, but it is the policy... so if you feel a need to track these things, you'll have to turn to outside sources.

The folly of that though is you end up with 'super hero cartels' that run around keeping policing data on everyone and making judgements outside the light of day over who is good or bad.

Which is why I feel the policy of not allowing it here is folly - it encourages people to turn to venues that cannot be checked, called out, verified, and so on.