Can we brainstorm a more fair way to aproach contests/competitions

[Eileen Fellstein]

Ok let me just air this out and get it out of my system then I'll get to the calm and rational explanation of what I am on about..

 

OMG CAN WE PULEEZE FIND A WAY TO DO CONTESTS THAT IS NOT A GLORIFIED VERSION OF A BOGUS POPULARITY CONTEST DESIGNED FOR LITTLE MORE THAN GETTING TRAFFIC ONTO SOMEONE'S SIM??!! GRRR!!!  :matte-motes-evil:

 

There, that felt better :)

 

Alright. I've been in SL for going on four years. Something people do a lot of is attend or put on contests. Mostly dress-up contests with linden or merchandise for prizes. Also there are longer running contests like modeling/photography, DJing, skating, etc etc etc.

Regardless of the theme, the vast majority of these contests, regardless of any claims or efforts to keep them fair determine the winner through taking a vote among the guests who come to that sim during the alloted time frame.

It should probably be no surprise to any of us that in a world-wide arena such as SL, a person's friends are seldom if not rarely the most unbiased of critics when it comes to deciding who to vote for. In fact, in most cases, it's pretty much understood that the winner is going to be whomever drags the most avatars in to vote.

Even if we survive such a thing without it lapsing into someone using a bunch of alts or just stuffing a hundred bucks worth of linden into the contest board to watch everyone scramble to keep up, to think for a second that these have anything at all to do with skill or talent of any kind would be entirely errant the majority of the time (with the posible exception of political talent - who can gather the biggest following)

So, I guess I'm offering this up as a challenge to all of us as a community, to come up with a way to run contests in a different manner. One that actually takes into account the effort put into meeting the criteria or who really displays the most talent in whatever it is we are trying to do.

[Charolotte Caxton]

I think the only way to have a legitimate contest, is to have a panel of judges. I don't think it is just a SL phenomena, but is how contests in general are. I think of American Idol, at first the judges weed out most of the untalented and eventually the person with the most fans wins, not necessarily the one with the most talent. 

So my solution? If you want to have a legitimate competition you have to have a panel of unbiased judges, otherwise you have to content yourself with the fact that popularity (or alts) wins the popular vote.

Now, that being said, if the goal of contests is to draw a crowd, then the way they are now is great, cause if you tp all your friends in to vote for you, you have just upped the places traffic.

If however the goal of the contest is to actually determine the best of something, unbiased panel is the way to go, but then you have to start finding unbiased people that aren't getting paybacks from the winners and stuff, so, there isn't really a fool proof solution, that I can think of. 

Unless you are the contest judge, then you know you are choosing based on your own, without any outside influence. Unless it's your friends who are in the contest, whose feelings you don't want to hurt.

So, I guess if it's just for fun, then it doesn't really matter who wins. If it's for something important though, like a grant or something, then yes, some stringent checks and balances are going to have to be put into place. 

[DQ Darwin]

Not too many judges that can get expensive:P

[Eileen Fellstein]

LoL DQ

 

And Charlotte, a panel of judges was exactly what came to my mind 1st. See, when I was 1st in SL I discovered ice skating. The wonderful apparel and skates available and some very nice venues. I got myself a hud to skate like the proffessional skaters because someone told me come winter there would be competitions. I was so let down when the 1st was announced and it was done by popularity vote. I had practiced for weeks expecting it to be an actual competition. I never even bothered to enter.

I understand the problem. As soon as you suggest judges, someone asks who can be trusted and everyone looks around at one another bewildered.

yet...

How the hell did we ever arrive at the conclusion turning it over to a scripted machine was prefferable? That's what baffles me to no end.

And at this point even an intentionally currupt panel that were there to be bribed would be preferable to what we usually have now in my opinion. At least it would be good for a few laughs as long as the gist of that was publicly known.

I still think with all the talented people on here, a solution is there somewhere.

I just know there has to be a pony under all this horsesh!t!

[Knowl Paine]

As mentioned, a panel of Judges would be a reliable method.

The popular vote could count as 1 vote in the judges panel. Expanding the popular voting options to include  sub-selections as to "why" the Resident voted, could provide valuable data about the contest content.

The Judges should be Judged. Any "builder" Judge can meet me (and others) in the sandbox, and he or she can prove their worth. Show me what you know about building.

A Bios on the Judges would suffice. :matte-motes-grin:

[Charolotte Caxton]

I think, even though on the surface it is just animated skating or best in white or loveliest photo, the question you are asking has plagued civilizations since recorded history.

How can we have a fair and unbiased system?

If we can answer that question in a Second Life forum, we may be able to save the world yet.

[Eileen Fellstein]

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Knowl Paine wrote:

As mentioned, a panel of Judges would be a reliable method.

The popular vote could count as 1 vote in the judges panel. Expanding the popular voting options to include  sub-selections as to "why" the Resident voted, could provide valuable data about the contest content.

The Judges should be Judged. Any "builder" Judge can meet me (and others) in the sandbox, and he or she can prove their worth. Show me what you know about building.

A Bios on the Judges would suffice. :matte-motes-grin:

---

I like your thought Knowl, though I don't think reasons are even necesary on the popular vote part as long as there are knowlegeable judges for the other 2/3 or w/e. I also like the idea of pre-testing the judges. I think #1 that would attract some people that had some amount of motivation to change the status quo with this stuff and could also instil a bit of confidence in the contest itself.

The question is practicality. Is it really feasable for a venue that presents anywhere from 10 to 30 events a week to screen judges for all of them? Probably not but a place could probably staff a rotating panel with a variety of areas of expertise and do their best to match up events with the appropriate 'experts' when available.

another thought is an additional wildcard judge could be added from the guests present by way of a quick vote. Might be someone good...might be someone bad...but it would make it interesting hehe

[Bree Giffen]

How about making a voting booth that randomizes the order of the contestants for every voter? So someone can't tell all their friends to just vote for number 4. Maybe, if you have 10 contestants, each voter would be presented with just a randomly chosen 5 out of the 10.

[Eileen Fellstein]

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Bree Giffen wrote:

How about making a voting booth that randomizes the order of the contestants for every voter? So someone can't tell all their friends to just vote for number 4. Maybe, if you have 10 contestants, each voter would be presented with just a randomly chosen 5 out of the 10.

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Well I'm not sure how many people actually vote by number like that but this does bring to mind part of an older way of collecting manual votes that actually worked very well in keeping contests fair.

Everyone votes for 2 people. No exceptions. If you don't cast 2 votes, your votes do not count.

Reason why is this nullifies vote stacking as well as can be possibly expected. Sure, vote up your freind or partner but unless you came with 2 or more friends, there's a much stronger chance that your 2nd vote went to someone that deserved to win the contest by the criteria. Votes are all given equal priority so that 1st choice-2nd choice does not matter.

This approach could be programmed into boards actually though I have never seen it. Closest I have seen was girls on this side, guys over there.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

It used to be that for club events, the host would take and tally the votes.    But, I know there were some hosts who were cheating and awarding the prize to friends or club owners were by picking someone that was planted to 'win' that they wouldn't have to pay. Then the contest boards came aound which I hate because they just contribute to lag, but they are fairer in that no one can cheat that way.  Of course they still can tp in friends and alts to 'win'.

Actually since traffic isn't counted toward search ranking anymore, I'm seeing less and less of them. Club contests may be good fof a new club to get people in the door at first..  The thing is though, from my own experience as a club owner, people that are attracted soley to win Lindens rarely spend them in the venue. Your much better off offering an quality experience and building your patrons that way, You more apt to get people with lindens to spend who will tip and spend money in shops.

If you want a contest to attract people though, the best way is with a lottery script.  You put it in an object that people touch to enter during the event, then the owner gives it a command and it randomly picks a winner at the end.  The rules could be that the winner has to be present to win and comply with whatever the eligibility criteia is.  If they aren't there or aren't in compliance,you just ask the script to pick another name.  Since there is no voting and the choice is random everyone has an equal chance of winning.

For contests involving skill and talent, obviously the best way is judging. (You could have a voting element and charge per vote to raise prize money, but the voting should only account for a small portion of the score with the judging a much larger part).  Who the judges are though should be kept secet until the winner is announced to avoid bribery.  The best way to do that is to pick judges who you trust and that may need you to recipicate and judge their contests.

 

 

 

[Eileen Fellstein]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

It used to be that for club events, the host would take and tally the votes.    But, I know there were some hosts who were cheating and awarding the prize to friends or club owners were by picking someone that was planted to 'win' that they wouldn't have to pay. Then the contest boards came aound which I hate because they just contribute to lag, but they are fairer in that no one can cheat that way.  Of course they still can tp in friends and alts to 'win'.

Actually since traffic isn't counted toward search ranking anymore, I'm seeing less and less of them. Club contests may be good fof a new club to get people in the door at first..  The thing is though, from my own experience as a club owner, people that are attracted soley to win Lindens rarely spend them in the venue. Your much better off offering an quality experience and building your patrons that way, You more apt to get people with lindens to spend who will tip and spend money in shops.

If you want a contest to attract people though, the best way is with a lottery script.  You put it in an object that people touch to enter during the event, then the owner gives it a command and it randomly picks a winner at the end.  The rules could be that the winner has to be present to win and comply with whatever the eligibility criteia is.  If they aren't there or aren't in compliance,you just ask the script to pick another name.  Since there is no voting and the choice is random everyone has an equal chance of winning.

For contests involving skill and talent, obviously the best way is judging. (You could have a voting element and charge per vote to raise prize money, but the voting should only account for a small portion of the score with the judging a much larger part).  Who the judges are though should be kept secet until the winner is announced to avoid bribery.  The best way to do that is to pick judges who you trust and that may need you to recipicate and judge their contests.

 

 

 

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Yes Amethyst, that was my 1st SL job as well. To me, cheating or helping anyone cheat was out of the question and I can honestly say I was not aware of anyone in that crew I believed to be involved in something like that. For us, the human element was the insurance against people gaming a mechanical device.

I hated any time I got a tie and had to pick a winner myself. I generally just paid the other out of pocket. It was worth it to me to help keep the place fun and good spirited.

I don't own a club or even manage so my motivation in this topic isn't about traffic or making money. I'd like to think a new person could use the search and find an interesting contest, put themself together a look and go attend with a fair shot of winning. I did that my 1st day. I actually won twice just by making the effort to be in costume, even with the stuff being all freebies.

I'm just really not seeing that sort of thing happening now, much if ever. Now, everyone's 1st thought seams to be' whose alt is it?'.

[Lynda Baran]

Or you could take the top 4, the 4ht place person picks the weapon, and have them fight to the death.   hehehe

[Perrie Juran]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 Then the contest boards came aound which I hate because they just contribute to lag, but they are fairer in that no one can cheat that way.

 

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I puzzled over this at one time.  When I first started SL I frequented one club where a certain individual kept winning and some of us began to get pissed about it.  At the time we weren't able to figure it out.  But recently a club owner told me how it can be gamed.

Just a few seconds before the board 'announces' the winner, a host or hostess with edit rights will delete names from the contest.  You don't see it happen because the board is cycling through names.  How wide spread this is I don't know, but it is how it's done.

[Eileen Fellstein]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 Then the contest boards came aound which I hate because they just contribute to lag, but they are fairer in that no one can cheat that way.

 

---

I puzzled over this at one time.  When I first started SL I frequented one club where a certain individual kept winning and some of us began to get pissed about it.  At the time we weren't able to figure it out.  But recently a club owner told me how it can be gamed.

Just a few seconds before the board 'announces' the winner, a host or hostess with edit rights will delete names from the contest.  You don't see it happen because the board is cycling through names.  How wide spread this is I don't know, but it is how it's done.

---

Actually most boards can be completely over-ridden by the host/admin controlling it. They can simply select the winner and end of story. It's a feature programmed in to give owners a way to intervene when obvious cheating is going on. A novice host may not have received enough instructions to know how to do it and even the board owner may not be aware its there if they haven't toured the menu, but yea. That's how that's done. Going to machines didn't take away the possibility of corruption. It just sort of presents the assumtion that it's gone.

 

I think it's important to stress here that this kind of thing (management rigging results) is not the norm and it's not something that plagues us en-mass. IMO it's more like one bad apple spoils the bushell basket full. One dose of that is enough to turn anyone off from participating in similar things. But what is all too common in my view is things being totally designed around venue traffic, venue profit as the top priority and fairness, fun and anything else is up for compromise. To me, that's the portion we need to really shake loose from. And it's in everyone's best interest. When your guests are happy, you stand to profit more I think.

[Perrie Juran]

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Eileen Fellstein wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 Then the contest boards came aound which I hate because they just contribute to lag, but they are fairer in that no one can cheat that way.

 

---

I puzzled over this at one time.  When I first started SL I frequented one club where a certain individual kept winning and some of us began to get pissed about it.  At the time we weren't able to figure it out.  But recently a club owner told me how it can be gamed.

Just a few seconds before the board 'announces' the winner, a host or hostess with edit rights will delete names from the contest.  You don't see it happen because the board is cycling through names.  How wide spread this is I don't know, but it is how it's done.

---

Actually most boards can be completely over-ridden by the host/admin controlling it. They can simply select the winner and end of story. It's a feature programmed in to give owners a way to intervene when obvious cheating is going on. A novice host may not have received enough instructions to know how to do it and even the board owner may not be aware its there if they haven't toured the menu, but yea. That's how that's done. Going to machines didn't take away the possibility of corruption. It just sort of presents the assumtion that it's gone.

 

I think it's important to stress here that this kind of thing (management rigging results) is not the norm and it's not something that plagues us en-mass.

IMO it's more like one bad apple spoils the bushell basket full. One dose of that is enough to turn anyone off from participating in similar things. But what is all too common in my view is things being totally designed around venue traffic, venue profit as the top priority and fairness, fun and anything else is up for compromise. To me, that's the portion we need to really shake loose from. And it's in everyone's best interest. When your guests are happy, you stand to profit more I think.

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I think it's important to stress here that this kind of thing (management rigging results) is not the norm and it's not something that plagues us en-mass.

 

I agree with you on this. I don't mean to induce paranoia in any one. 

I don't go to clubs for the contests.  I go to be with friends and to enjoy the music.

Actually any more I tend to avoid clubs with contests because they are the most gesturebation prone places and I hate seeing my view of the world blotted out by inane text.

[Ceka Cianci]

i avoid contests and events..i'll go to a club with an even and get all dresedup or whatever..but i don't take part..i may vote on someone if they really have something that catches my eye for the event..but for the most part i don't take part in thhem..i just like hanging out in the crowds in them and dancing or whatever..

the whole point of those things is traffic  to get noticed or to have people buy things that go there pretty much..

i doubt having a judged contest would benefit the ones trying to get noticed ..which would be the store or sim..

 

[JeanneAnne]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

i avoid contests and events..i'll go to a club with an even and get all dresedup or whatever..but i don't take part..i may vote on someone if they really have something that catches my eye for the event..but for the most part i don't take part in thhem..i just like hanging out in the crowds in them and dancing or whatever..

the whole point of those things is traffic  to get noticed or to have people buy things that go there pretty much..

i doubt having a judged contest would benefit the ones trying to get noticed ..which would be the store or sim..

 

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i agree w/ you Ceka.. there 4a while i discovered that contests were 1 easy way i could get $L, so i was all in2 them.. then i realized that some were rigged & decided that even if they werent, it wasnt worth hanging out somewhere i didnt really like just for the sake of maybe winning a few $s worth of $L .. so i quit bothering w/ contests ... thing is now tho, that i get ragged @ for not participating when theres 1 going on where i want to be anyway !! :cattongue:

 

Jeanne

[Seven Overdrive]

Just go to the clubs and venues you enjoy hanging at and avoid the contests since most will be won by the person with the most alts anyway.  Contests are just tricks to get people to show up.  I rather go to a place that doesn't need to rely on such things because they have the creativity and talent to make people want to spend their precious time and money there.  

[161488303349]

if is about traffic and about making a fun place and about giving out some lindens as a reward then i think the best clubs set up their boards so that everyone wins a little something with 1-2-3 people winning a bit more. boards like this can get more people to your club or event than any other method day in day out

+

if you want active players and not worry about bots and campers then can use a trivia game. lots of people like to play that game and make some little lindens. because you have to chat the answer in public then quite often people actual end up chatting to each other while waiting for the next question. is quite encouraging when you are new and dont know anyone does this. is like an icebreaker as it gives you something in common to talk about other than the usuals

+

if is a contest contest then like Charlotte said, independent judging panel is way to do it

[Eileen Fellstein]

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Seven Overdrive wrote:

Just go to the clubs and venues you enjoy hanging at and avoid the contests since most will be won by the person with the most alts anyway.  Contests are just tricks to get people to show up.  I rather go to a place that doesn't need to rely on such things because they have the creativity and talent to make people want to spend their precious time and money there.  

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Well yes...and no, lol

I mean everything you said is true but some contests are fun and enjoyable and some of us still like them. Cheaters ruin them however and club owners that don't care enough to do what it takes to ensure fairness just agrivate the problem further.

Contests are a money out situation more than a profiter in and of theirself. That I understand, so it's usually in conjunction with other things to make the money back and then some. But it's a destructive pattern I have seen played out a few different times. Contest attracts people. Traffic numbers enable sales/rental of vendor stalls. Pretty soon there's so much damn lag in the place that  people give up and stop coming, regardless of any amount  talent or creativity.

So they shake the Etch a Sketch and start over somewhere else doing exactly the same thing.

There has got to be more to SL than just being a laggy cash register for runaway venture capitalism

or at least I hope so

[Melita Magic]

Short answer: Any contest is only as fair as those running it.

The objective of a contest is to get traffic into their sim and keep it there a while, so asking for "another way to do things besides getting traffic in" isn't likely to have much result.

A fair place will not allow their staff to enter the contest. A fair place will say that people need to stay for the entire contest before their vote is counted. A fair place will not use IP tracking to count who is who, and publicize who's an alt of whom. Because that isn't necessary and ruins the fun. Of course most people will TP their friends, family and alts in to vote. But that doesn't mean a place has the right to invade privacy.

I never understood why some people suddenly had tons of friends come in and win a contest either...I didn't know back then about double log ins or even alts really, and I just thought they were popular - heh. 

Another fair way would be to do away with voting and just let the judges decide.  If you see the winner has a good costume or whatever and it isn't the same person winning each time the judge is probably pretty fair. If the person has a freebie from 2005 on and isn't even in theme and wins, or teh same people win every time, stop going to that club would be my advice or stop entering their contests.

 

 

[Dillon Levenque]

The questions have I think mostly been answered already but I really enjoy the topic. Most of the contests I have entered or seen have involved fairly small groups of people most of whom know one another, and of course with those conditions there's really no cheating or alt-voting or anything else like that because it would be obvious to everyone.

I have now and then entered or witnessed contests at larger gatherings; in all cases they were 'appearance' contests: best in lace, fifties, historical character, etc. The ones that seemed to work best had at least two things in common: voting was delayed until near the end of the event and nobody who arrived after the voting opened could vote (not sure that is really enforcable, but it seems to work). It also made voting more fun because you really had some time to spend checking everybody out (normally I would NEVER do anything like perv-camming, of course) so you could make your choice. It's true that one could still drag in a bunch of friends and alts right near the end of the event, knowing that voting was about to start, but it would have been glaringly obvious. I think just knowing everyone else would be well aware of what was happening probably worked as a deterrent.

I think it was 16 who suggested trivia contests and I totally agree with his (or her) points there: it's pretty hard to fake it—the winner is the person who got the most right answers—and they are, as mentioned, not just enjoyable as contests but a great way to stimulate conversation in general.

[Syo Emerald]

So, only native speaker can win? Cause all trivia games I see around are language based and people who speak English since their childhood will win every contest, they are faster and make less mistakes.

[Dillon Levenque]

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Syo Emerald wrote:

So, only native speaker can win? Cause all trivia games I see around are language based and people who speak English since their childhood will win every contest, they are faster and make less mistakes.

---

 

Well that is certainly true. And I suppose English is by far the most commonly spoken language in SL, so if it is not your native toungue a trivia contest in that language is likely to put you at a disadvantage (if for no other reason than there's a good chance a lot of the questions will be based on a culture familiar to speakers of English). There are plenty of places in SL where English is not the primary language, though: I've been to lots of them and struggled mightily just to figure out what was going on.

[Eileen Fellstein]

Everyone has made terrific points!

I don't agree with everything to the letter of everything said but I think as a collective, it's been a pretty accurate assesment of the situation.

In my mind there's 2 important angles that sort of clash and work against one another. The 1st is the use of these contests with the primary purpose being to draw traffic in the hopes that that equals profit. That usually collides head 1st with those looking for something fun to do that are optomistic that most things are reasonably fair.

Anyone that knows me knows how fighting mad I can get over IP tracking. To me, there's not a single thing in this pixel prim world that excuses anyone but Lindens from using that information without the express written consent of the individual involved. So just for me personally, I'd rather see no contests than to have people resorting to that, especially over what is usually about 1 dollar USD worth of L$.

I don't think measures that drastic are necessary though, nor have they ever been. I do think people were a little too willing to turn over a task that needs to be handled by a responsible and trustworthy person or group of people to a scrpted object.

What I do think the answer is though is to put the focus back on fun long enough to see that it generates far more traffic in the end than any amount of gimmicks or gadgetry.

Just an example. How many people love to take pictures of their avi or others? And there is without a doubt many wonderful photgraphers around the grid. Woudn't it be wonderful to spend time doing your best creative shoot for a contest with the confidence that your submissions are being judged fairly, whether you have the time or money to drag friends and neighbor there and fill up some contest board with lindens? I'm guessing even for those that didn't win, it would be a sheer joy just to go look at all the amazing submissions.