Rene Erlanger Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 A series of skins made from scratch, not using anyone elses templates or artwork.....producing a number of options for a variety of different skin tones can take a few hundred hours (mainly Photoshop) until the final product is put up for sale. Now that wasn't a problem before, when most sales were generated in-world.....as the chances were that you could literally sell 1000's of skins at say 1000 L per skin.....so that time investment was really worth it's while. Nowadays with full perm skins, templates +PSD files, cheapo skins and copybotting....plus the lack of visibility for in-world stores in favour of Marketplace.....the whole exercise is really not worthwhile. (unless you're a known brand like Redgrave, LAQ or Belleza) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Howdy stranger, good to see you back. If I could use your post to springboard off of ... I can prove that undercutting and free is harmful. We do a breedable. Now before anyone slams them as lag inducing ponzi schemes, let me remind that there is indeed a market for them, otherwise people would not willingly buy them and that any product can be slammed as equally. The biggest problem breedable producers face is a devaluing market, much like SL In many ways we're a microcosm of and directly tied to the SL economy. The "majority" of breeders would like to if not profit, make back their investment or direct costs, which is exactly like SL merchants ... there's an entire economy to each line of breedables, and the reasons for "profit" are the same. Some sell for profit, some for costs and the enjoyment of being successful at the breeding game and others purely for pleasure. We tend to let the market run its course and don't support one type of customer over the other. However, all of these markets degrade, and it isn't because of lack of interest, or the willingness to pay those prices, it is because people will undercut each other and eventually devalue the entire market. And I don't blame them! They want to be competitive and reducing prices is the easist way to do that. But make no mistake, the second the market does start to degrade, the majority of customers do not like it and place the blame upon us to keep the value of the market up, much like I'm asking of LL. People who do it for fun aren't affected and don't care, except that they'd like to see their favorite breedable company supported for the hard work that they do. To compensate our people who breed just for fun, we may make a "pet only" version, where there is no cost for food like some other breedables do, because we understand that their intent is not to sell, but to have fun on their own residential land with their "pet". I would suggest that like a "pet only" version, that the same mechanism would work for people who are only "merchants for fun". Also slightly resenting the digs that not making a profit is more noble than profit seeking merchants, this is completely untrue, or that we're taking more than giving. To the Linus vs. Bill Gates comment I would say that the profit of microsoft has funded Bill and Melinda Gates to retire by giving back far more to the world via non profits than Linux will ever do. We pay half a dozen people the equivalent of a part time income. We give to charities. Our breedable alone has contributed to people buying full islands and has probably contributed to 100-200 regions worth of land sold, because you need more prims if you want more breedables. We create opportunity for new markets, for merchants to create new breedable related products, to participate in the economy without being a merchant, which means they buy "more" goods from you merchants than they would if they were competing with you directly. Their homes, furniture, etc. At last check over 4,000 of our customers products were listed on the Marketplace. No single free item has generated as much in donations for non profit than a commercial item. Which just happens to be a breedable. That's what profitable merchants can do for the economy, if you want to swap nobility for nobility. The problem we face in order to try to solve the huge problem of stabilizing our markets, just like LL, is to figure out how to provide more distinction between "free" and not. You can only mix them together so much before the profit potential is gone for everyone, including the majority that are fine with the prices before they decline to nothing. I wonder, would merchants who are doing this for fun only be willing to accept an alternate form of currency that could not be cashed out or used to pay for tier? Nothing wrong with fun only, I do this more for fun than money, as do the majority of you. This year we'll be figuring out how we can not only solve a declining market, but includes a strategy to spread the wealth, meaning we're aiming at our customers making far more money than we do. In the process, we will in turn grow and make more than if we were too greedy. It's a myth that you can just innovate and survive. You cannot innovate faster than a market can undercut itself, and you shouldn't have to innovate at the rate of an 80 hour work week. The only thing I'm advocating is that LL takes the same share the wealth strategy and solves the exact same problems controlling a market to be profitable enough to survive. And there are some very difficult choices to make to accomplish that. That this is a merchants forum, implies that it is for profit, because that's what a merchant is. That it's for fun is implied because it's extremely time consuming for lower profits and it's a virtual world, not a desk job. Please don't take that as pompous, it really isn't. It's a hard reality. Continued survival, growth and stability cost money. Free goods do not directly accomplish that, lower cost goods do on a lesser scale. In the end though I don't think anyone wants "free" or low cost to go away, only to not dilute the value of those who believe in the power of commerce and business. We should talk more about how that can be done, but make no mistake, SL cannot survive as a consumer only market, and if those problems aren't solved in the next year or two, there probably won't be an SL, and if there is, you will be paying for what you now enjoy as free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 breedable makers just service addiction. Ever cuter or whatever the code won't change much. They service an addiction like drug pushers and LL feeds on it. This will never change. Next issue? For what it is worth I stopped participating in hunts and cut back on freebies to a single box of jeans, shirts and shoes so new residents that find it can wear something other than the usual crap. Freebies have damaged the economy. But nobody wants to go there. In 2007 the 12 days of Christmas was a great marketing feat and created the freebie craze. Then LL destroyed the economy with the borked search and I have never considered SL a viable business platform since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 SL services addiction. I think they still call it immersion. Not sure what the gaming industry term of the moment is. Basically when something is cool enough to do for long periods, you've got something good. That's everyones choice to do what they will with their time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Marina Ramer wrote: Oh didnt meant being rude at all, and I do respects opinions of everyone, but is still my choice to reply or not to a comment Maybe I would just had to make clear at the start that I am actually interested on opinions of collegues merchants and really not on customers " I love freebies" , was actually just trying to make clear my position as merchant and I would really like to hear what other merchants have to say, as you may know, this is in the end the Merchants thread But I understamd why your comments anyway as you are one of the persons who offers this freebies In the end I hope that LL charges a fee to all persons like you who offer 100 freebies or more in marketplace, like they planned to do when it was the migration form xstreet to Marketplace, in the understanding that actually the people who pays to them are, I guess, as mayority the merchants who pays for more land and premium accounts and not the freebie collectors/offerents If you're going to ask others to check things before responding, maybe it would do you well to actually do the same? Good for the goose, and all that. I don't offer 100 freebies, lol. As a matter of fact, I only have 115 products on MP to begin with, or somewhere around there, last I checked. They may not be $100L and up items, but only one of them is a freebie, only two are $1L, the remaining ones are $5L and up Asking for opinions, in a merchant area (or any area really, but since you want to be specific) is going to get the opinions of, well, *merchants*. This whole "you're not a merchant if you offer freebies" attitude you seem to have is the very elitist attitude that is helping to aid in the downfall of the merchant community(just as much as any other issue the merchant community as a whole, has to face). It's rather absurd too, in my honest opinion. Shunning away people as not actually being merchants, or as being "part of the problem", doesn't seem to me like it's going to actually help. But I guess you'd rather wait for all those serious merchants out there who are likely far too busy actually focusing on their own bottom line, to answer your inquiry. The rest of us peons who actually contribute to your bottom dollar, to your income, to your rl table....don't mean jack...right? Yeah that's a fantastic attitude to have towards people you're trying to sell to, rofl. I guess all my lowly sales that have contributed to *your bottom dollar over time, aren't really a dime a dozen, and haven't gotten you to that "top 100" spot, either, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Dartagan Shepherd wrote:...That's everyones choice to do what they will with their time. And money. There is no need to complain about anyone else's capacity to cull dollars. Come up with the next big deal is the only ticket to SL wealth. I see nothing wrong with making money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Ziggy21 Slade wrote: It's also worth remembering who is behind some of the avatars here, there are disabled people who dont have the employment choices many people enjoy, single mothers trying to scrape together a few extra dollars to keep their kids happy, older unemployed people who can't get job offers, students having their first attempt at entrepreneurship. A healthy vibrant marketplace where people can make fair money is a great thing for many people and without it SL would not exist, anyone who sets out with malicious intent to destroy this is a..... expletive deleted!! In answer to the OP, yes please kick out this freebie rubbish and the numskulls who inflict it upon us. People who sell lower priced items, give things away, are also people who fit those categories. Not wise to assume that only those who charge top dollar fit that bill. Of course a healthy vibrant market(not just marketplace, but also inworld, so *market) is absolutely wonderful. But eliminating freebies and dollarbies, isn't something that will achieve this any faster. Not everyone who gives something away, offers freebies, or dollarbies is out to destroy anything. That attitude is just as damaging to the general merchant community, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Rene Erlanger wrote: Marketplace has over 1.5 Millions products listed......that is a hell of a large MEGA store to try and obtain any kind of visibility from. I wonder how many MP Merchants make monthly 6-figure sales i.e 100,000 L? It's still not a lot when you consider a SIM tiers are 78k p/mth ($295) as a comparison. 1.5 million products.....now that's a of lot of noise to wade through to be making regularly meaningful sales! It makes no odds on whether you offer Freebies or whether Alicia does......it's the fact there are 100's of Alicias on Marketplace listing Freebies! So if one's products can be seen past the Freebies, then one's at the mercy of the MP Search engine or from competitors with more expensive Feature listings. I wonder how many products are listed on Marketplace by avatars who have long since left Second Life? ..more noise! I understand wanting to eliminate the extra "noise" people have to compete with. I truly do. Xstreet used to actually have a freebie section-while many may not like the idea, I think it's far better than eliminating them entirely. Getting rid of freebies and dollarbies isn't going to magically make the bottom line better for someone struggling to make an income. It may be one teensy piece of a very large puzzle, and may help contribute in the end, but there are far bigger pieces to that puzzle that could be more beneficial. Things like search working properly, a better rating system, more of the tools some of the merchants have been asking for-for some time now...I mean there really are a lot of things that can be done. Not to mention a lot we can do as merchants to help ourselves too. A lot of people aren't optimizing their own potential, and then later claiming that other merchants are killing things for them. When I need to make more sales, or simply want to, I don't look to others to see what they can do to better aid me. I don't look to others when sales are low, to see what they are doing wrong, that is harming me. No, I look at myself, at what I am doing, at what I can do differently. Even if I am doing everything right (or think I am anyway, lol), there is always something that can be changed. There is always more we can do. Heck I've seen people come to these very forums with basically "What can I do differently here" questions, when their bottom line is hurting, if they can't seem to help themselves. I've seen countless merchants help others in this way. I've learned a million and one new things from other merchants here myself over the years. But in the end, what I do, what I make, what my store accomplishes...it's all on me. *IF* I want to make a true profit, that responsibility sits with me. From a personal standpoint, I've never found insulting your actual customers to be the best way to increase income. Sure some big companies might be able to pull it off-if they offer something people can't get elsewhere-but, yeah, most people can't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Boyle Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Tari Landar wrote: When I need to make more sales, or simply want to, I don't look to others to see what they can do to better aid me. I don't look to others when sales are low, to see what they are doing wrong, that is harming me. No, I look at myself, at what I am doing, at what I can do differently. Even if I am doing everything right (or think I am anyway, lol), there is always something that can be changed. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Where do you find the stats reports and figures for top 100 MP merchants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setekh Ichtama Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 There aren't any good stats now however, if you're making $1000-$2000 USD a month, you're probably in the top 300-400 somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Setekh Ichtama wrote: There aren't any good stats now however, if you're making $1000-$2000 USD a month, you're probably in the top 300-400 somewhere. Almost. The stats used to show that out of the 60,000 or so that had a positive L$ flow per month the following applied:- < $10 by 50% < $100 by 89% Top 1% occupied by around 600 people earning over $2000 Top 0.3% occupied by around 300 people earning over $5000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Nefertiti Nefarious wrote: This is a GAME. Don't get mad at people who treat it like one. This is true and that was the point of my first post, that there are a completely diverse set of goals, aspirations and motives for all those that come here. By the way, the local vandals don't have a house, they think life is a game, they're going to regularly throw bricks through your windows and slash your car tyres because after all, it's just a game to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rya Nitely Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I've been hanging around with this newbie lately. Normally, I don't get out much. I just hang around my working area, like most creators do. We lose touch with what goes on out there. What I learnt from this newbie is this - he has been in SL for under a month and is having a great time buying freebies on the marketplace, such as cute little boats etc. I wouldn't want to deprive newbies of this. And why would you want to? This is what makes them fall in love with SL, and stay. They start spending when they're good and ready. But they have to get a taste of it, Freebies give them that. I don't have freebies on the marketplace, only because I don't want to subject my gifts to the review system. I hand them out inworld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Sautereau Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 What i do with my free time is for non to say What i do with my stuff is for non to say If people will call me insane for putting so much time into something, only to give it away for free, i`ll laugh and say "old news " Why should i charge something instead of opensourcing it, just because estate owners earn some money? are you mad? (dumb question) Think i`ll know what my second project will be now... I`m done with this thread, good luck to all. ps, about the ego thing, this entire thread is based on ego.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Rya Nitely wrote: I've been hanging around with this newbie lately. Normally, I don't get out much. I just hang around my working area, like most creators do. We lose touch with what goes on out there. What I learnt from this newbie is this - he has been in SL for under a month and is having a great time buying freebies on the marketplace, such as cute little boats etc. I wouldn't want to deprive newbies of this. And why would you want to? This is what makes them fall in love with SL, and stay. They start spending when they're good and ready. But they have to get a taste of it, Freebies give them that. I don't have freebies on the marketplace, only because I don't want to subject my gifts to the review system. I hand them out inworld. That's a very wonderful perspective, one I think we sometimes lose. I think there are very few people in this virtual world who've never gained something from a freebie. It really doesn't matter if it was "bought" on marketplace, inworld, received as a prize from a game, handed out as a group gift, or whatever else. I don't think most people can claim they've never gotten a freebie and actually used it. So I rarely ever understand the animosity towards creators who put them out there. Not when there is so much more affecting creators. Some of which we actually have control over. I'll never understand the frame of mind that suggests we ought to have control over one another, though. I've not found a compelling enough argument that tells me this is a grand idea, though. Maybe there is one out there, but I've not heard it yet. Of all the arguments I have heard, though, the whole "freebies are killing my bottom line", is the worst, imo. As someone else pointed out, those freebies and those creators handing them out, aren't even your competition. So if you really want to see what's hurting your bottom line(aside from spending too much time worrying about others) look at the people who really ARE taking the lindens that would be spent with you, if they didn't exist. Those are the folks you're competing against for income. Creators who offer freebies may be your competition as far as space, being able to be seen by the masses and such, but they are *not* taking income from your pocket. They're not making income, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Popular Keywords #1 position #1 - over 700L position #2 - freebie position #4 and #5 - my items, not freebies, hard work, promotion Popular Keywords #2 position #1 - over 900L position #2 - over 1500L position #4 - freebie position #6 - mine, not a freebie, need to ramp promotion up a bit, used to be #1 Popular Keywords #3 position #1 - mine, not a freebie, hard work, promotion position #2 - not a freebie position #3 - not a freebie position #4 - not a freebie no freebies on page one Popular Keywords #4 position #1 - over 3500L position #2 - over 1000L position #3 - over 400L position #4 - over 1200L position #5 - over 2000L position #6 - over 4000L position #7 - freebie holy cow, I'm not on this page, forgot to add this keyword! betcha I'll be on this page tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'm going to watch your thread - - it will be a long one I betcha that through 15 to 20 pages, not one person will use the magic phrase or ask the magic phrase. Watch it every single time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 "As someone else pointed out, those freebies and those creators handing them out, aren't even your competition. So if you really want to see what's hurting your bottom line(aside from spending too much time worrying about others) look at the people who really ARE taking the lindens that would be spent with you, if they didn't exist. Those are the folks you're competing against for income. Creators who offer freebies may be your competition as far as space, being able to be seen by the masses and such, but they are *not* taking income from your pocket. They're not making income, lol." You must mean LL, because between 5% commission and various sinks LL is a bigger competitor than any profitable merchant. No need to demonize anyone but LL who put the models into place. It's the model itself that needs tweaking, and software that doesn't work. Meanwhile the majority of merchants don't make substantial profits but LL continues to lose sims every week, regardless of a fire sale and adding thousands of LL owned sims to buffer the numbers and indicators. Haven't even seen anyone bother to ask for a Q4 report, why would you? You know what it's going to contain. Keeping your head down and only being concerned with what you can do better doesn't do a darn thing to stop the global bleeding. None of that is any merchants fault. Free isn't a direct problem to any single merchant and many merchants find ways to make free profitable. A model that depends on churn though, and neglects to keep the value of churn up, and takes too much out of the churn while breeding customer dis-satisfaction with inferior product is just going to eat itself, regardless of free/not free, merchants who assume their own responsibility, etc. Whatever it is? It's not working. We continue to decline week by week. And that's not any merchants or freebie givers fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Rya Nitely wrote: What I learnt from this newbie is this - he has been in SL for under a month and is having a great time buying freebies on the marketplace, such as cute little boats etc. I wouldn't want to deprive newbies of this. And why would you want to? This is what makes them fall in love with SL, and stay. They start spending when they're good and ready. But they have to get a taste of it, Freebies give them that. In my inventory I have a pair of pink prims shoes, that I will never do away, no matter how ugly they are. It's the pair of shoes that were my favorites in my newbie days, I found them in a freebie shop and I walked on them for months. I keep them as kind of symbol, they tell me where I come from in SL. For me freebies was not the main thing that made me fall in love with SL. Beautifull sims, visualised fantasies, the fact that the world was build by his residents, meeting people from all over the world, free education in places like Ivory Towers and the Particles Laboratory, an active art community... those triggered me for SL. When all those things that impressed me would not have been there, I doubt I would have stayed because of free clothes, houses or gadgets. Nevertheless freebies had an important function for me: learning. LL didn't tell me that I need a shoebase to make my high heels fit. I learned that by picking up gifts from residents, who were so kind to explain that in a notecard. That's just one of the hunderds of learning experiences I came across while playing around with freebies. Looking backwards I can say freebies were for me the most attractive way to overcome 'the high learning curve' from SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Having some freebies seems ok - I'm bothered by a freebie mentality when people expect everything for free however. In a speech not that long ago Philip said eventually all content will be free, and that only those providing a service will make money in virtual worlds. Are the game gods working to bring this about, or is he psychic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Hi Dartagan - interesting reply most of which i agree with. Yep, took a break from SL...about 7/8 months worth! Interesting to see some of the changes in SL, the biggest being Mesh products of course and the V3 viewer....oh and Linden Realms. I just noticed, you're the one responsibe for the breedable Fairies- lol....i went and took a peak quite a while back, when they first launched . My SL partner created animated Fairies nearly 3 years ago (probably the 1st in SL at that time, just before Sion Chickens), which she still sells on her sim. It wasn't the breedable kind though....it's more a multi-functional one that could be used for different purposes inlcuding a Greeter. Thye can travel a maximum of 96m radius (so 192m or 3/4 of a Sim) . She does a have a group where customers can trade with one another...as some Fairies are rarer than others....but its not based on the secondary market of breedables...but more a collectors club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Ann Otoole wrote: breedable makers just service addiction. Ever cuter or whatever the code won't change much. They service an addiction like drug pushers and LL feeds on it. This will never change. __________________________________________________________________________________________ My SL partner is in the process of developing & coding a new breedable product with a twist....I would consider it innovative (or next generation) when compared to past & existing breedable products. The coding is far more complex as it will require more customer participation....invariably there will be a secondary market for buying, selling & exchanging although it's not so much to do with rarity as to other aspects (qualities) of that product . I guess it's a cross between breedables & xxxxxxx (secret :matte-motes-wink:) wrapped up into 1 product.....hence the coding is far more complex and will require extensive beta testing once it hits the grid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Erlanger Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Just to be clear, i'm not that bothered about Xstreet or the now Marketplace....it's never been a main source of SL income for me compared to my in-world businesses. My only concern is the way that Linden Lab have now promoted Marketplace at the expense of in-world shopping! That is sad to see.....along with all the Sims closing and commerical lands being abandoned, I'm not blaming that on Freebies or Dollarbies....but the way that LL have incorporated MP into the Viewer. I just think relying on income solely from Marketplace is kind of a tough prospect.....there's just so many products listed (regardless of Freebies & Dollarbies). I'm sure a large percentage fo products listed don't even sell once...in a given month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'm going to be hard on you, because well, I don't know the OP at all. But you're not using twitter at all. As far as I know, you're not blogging. And I know who is blogging. If I don't know you're blogging, then you're not blogging worth squat. I had totally forgotten in the past six months that you were doing breedables. It was a light bulb moment just now in this thread. Unfortunately, I've got no links to see what you're up to. There is no link on your profile that indicates you offer something for sale. And I've not seen you in very many breedable threads giving information. If I remember correctly, I'm not even sure you connect your Dartagan name with a store on marketplace. I could find out real quick, but you don't have a link handy. I've not seen you interviewed on any other blogs either, blogs that are interested in the latest trends. Maybe you have been, but I was unaware and unable to promote that link for you on twitter, since you never forwarded it. I could tweet that link right now? you got one? Do you have an item on every single page one of the keywords you want to be on in marketplace? I just clicked on every link on page one of google after typing in "second life fairies" and I don't see you. If some of that stuff is your partner, then I would not know, because you have no connection on your profile right here. If none of that is your partner - why aren't you on page one of google? I didn't see anything on Flickr either. Days are over when you could slip into forum and chit chat away with no connection to a store. Use it or lose it. Go Big or Go Home. I'm in my store today, and bopping around the grid, and people are shopping. Met some cool people, too! I'm not convinced ANYONE can set up shot and automate it, then walk away for a week with no promotion. Not convinced at all. Maybe there is one or two who managed to figure out some kind of Auto System. You're not going to whip LL into shape anytime soon. Have you read some of their latest reviews? Even if they whipped into shape overnight....if you're not blogging, if you're not on page one of google, in the least for a recent 24 hour search, if you're not using twitter or flickr or tumblr or google or facebook and if you're not linking at least one of those to your profile/handle/whatever while you're walking about the Internet or about town..... Nothing that LL does is going to get you in the boat you want to be in, because you are missing the boat. Rare that a business anymore can get the market share they want without at least a few of the above things going on. High five to anyone who does, but dang, I'm not going to give them a High-five for being on top of the game, that's for sure. It takes too much time? an Hour a day. If you're not willing to put an hour a day into your investment, then you've got no reason to get into a tizzy. Same goes for you Rene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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