Pamela Galli Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Does anyone understand how one would go about updating something that you intend to keep the same name? Will I have to go into some page in my MP store like inventory and delete something before I can add a new one with the same name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Josh Susanto wrote: "And their methodology is so transparent: 1. Ignore or misinterpret every bit of info given and rant hysterically about how corrupt LL are and how they trying to destroy merchants, blah blah, etc. 2a. If DD fails --> "See - I told you so!" Win! 2b. If DD succeeds --> "Just as well I made such a fuss and got LL to change their evil ways!" By "their", it's clear that you mean "Josh's". But I hadn't done any of this in the current thread. All I did was ask a question that I think a lot of other people will also be asking, for which you have rewarded me by pre-emptively attacking my projected criticism of failures you already insist, despite every possible empirical precedent, cannot happen. FYI, "their" is plural. (ie sorry, but it's not all about you) I haven't insisted upon any such thing - either read properly or stop making things up (whichever particular failing accounts for your false statement). What I have said is that people need to just read up and test stuff as it becomes available and that those who willfully misinterpret things then try to build up hysteria over bits of misinformation should not be tolerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Not everyone here is a Tech Geek. Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to create things and market them properly and conduct business here, without having to have a Computer Programming degree, or a real life job in Tech. In other businesses, we use different phrases, different styles, different approaches. That does not equate to being stupid by asking questions. I've got a degree in Psychology. We could talk about agendas all day long. The explanations are written by tech geeks. End of story. Mickey: Again, for the record, no criticism here of those who are genuinely attempting to understand instructions and having difficulty. You did see I posted a overview and simplified instructions to help people with this? (Although, tbh, the current instructions aren't particularly technical at all, but they could definitely do with a rewrite by an instructional designer.) What I do object to, as I have stated several times, is the histrionic, attention-seeking grandstanding being carried out by some of the less-stable personalities around here, that serves only to confuse and concern people unnecessarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Pamela Galli wrote: Does anyone understand how one would go about updating something that you intend to keep the same name? Will I have to go into some page in my MP store like inventory and delete something before I can add a new one with the same name? Good question Pam. I could think of a couple of ways but it depends how they end up managing files in each merchant's storage directory (eg would a new file/folder of the same name automatically overwrite the previous, in which case you'd need to do nothing. Or is the new file renamed and you'd then select the latest 'associated object' from dropdown, etc.) As per Commerce Linden's post, all this stuff is still being worked on atm, but definitely the sort of usage that should be designed for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Paladin Pinion wrote: Toysoldier Thor wrote: The new DD could have used these MagicBoxes (or even a new DD version of this Magicbox) that is rezzed inworld and used it as the "OUTBOX" source that would be uploaded into the MP DD system. Couldn't you just think of this folder as a "magic box"? I'm sure you must keep master copies of your items in your inventory and you don't rely on the box to keep them, right? When an external object is an intermediary in the delivery process, you get the problems we have now. "Direct" delivery means just that: from one inventory directly to another. Another advantage of using a folder instead of an external object is that merchants without land can sell without having to find a place to park a box. I admit it will be the end of the rent-a-box-space business, but so it goes. Not discussing this topic changes anything. LL made whatever decisions they made on this solution, as sheltered as they were when they created it with very little input except from a few trusted friends. So the solution we have now - no matter how good or poor or missing of the better solutions - is what it is. One thing we all can agree on - LL has an extremely strong record of going forward with a solution, policy, concept no matter how wrong it might be. So this is what we have. Is the OUTBOX folder like a magicbox? Not really. It could be thought of as a Magicbox if it didnt have to force us merchants to use folders. A folder for every MP boxed item? wtf with that. Need a special LL viewer for special additional features to work on Magicbox? nope. but with this folder, if you use the LL Viewer you will get added features (like automated boxed item folder creation. Again, for boxed items... WHY USE FOLDERS. If I have boxed items, LL should have used their brains and let u sjust place our boxed items from Magic boox to the root of this new flolder. No folders for them - just a flat root folder with all our items. With a Magicbox, when I press the synch button in MP, it does exactly what I would have expected the new DD Outbox should do... MASTER SYNCH to the MP - NOT Synch and then stupidly delete everything in the folder. That was likely a plan from a junior LL Developer that didnt know there is a concept in ETL techologies called One-Way MIRROR or SYNC. The master is the master and the destination is simply kept in synch with the master. But with LL's new Outbox idea, they thought it would be a great idea to remove the invaluable feature of making the outbox an MP MASTER FOLDER. So now whenver we have to update - if this is how it works as it has not been exactly explained - we need to recreate the folder and it better be the same name and then drop the content in. Alternatively, most merchants will have to create their own new MASTER MP folder right beside the LL system OUTBOX folder so that they can more easily drag a copy of the updated folder to this outbox folder. Do I have a master copy now? Yes? My Magicbox! And I have a copy of my Magicbox in my inventory as backup. This is my master copy of what is in my MP. I have a lot of working copy folders in my inventory that keeps all aspect of the product that i sell boxed in MP and in world. But my magicbox is the MASTER COPY for MP. You are not unerstanding my solution on how LL should have developed DD. I am not arguing that a DD solution was needed to replace the current single-threaded process script inside the magicbox and how it relied upon the customer being online or risk delivery failure because of a full receiving inbox. BUT, they did not have to abandon the MAGICBOX itself.all they had to do was use the Magicbox as the source for the new DD instead of coming up with his elaborate rocket science complex new inventory system folder that requires more sub folders for all MP listings and even more optional folders - and all with limits - i.e. cannot upload more than 100 at a time. As I said in a prevous post, LL couldnt keep focused and solve the problem at hand (failing deliveries), nope they had to throw a whole pile of other lower priority LL internal wishlists into this solution that made this way more complex and as I can almost promise you - will be riddled with failures and bugs in the new year when it gets released. Count on it. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE MAGICBOX. They threw out the baby with the bath water. Your last statement on the benefit - although technically true - its a very very weak benefit. OMG - for the first year of my life on SL while I was selling on Xstreet...not only did I not have my own land... I didnt even have a piece of land that I rented for a store or a home. I lived on public land and wherever i could rez. All I did was ask a friend if I could place my magic box under a tree in her sim. It ran there for almost a year! WEAK BENEFIT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Pamela Galli wrote: Does anyone understand how one would go about updating something that you intend to keep the same name? Will I have to go into some page in my MP store like inventory and delete something before I can add a new one with the same name? Been asked by me a few times in two threads. Been asked by others in this thread. Apparently LL did not see this repeatedly asked question and as they said, we now have to wait another week for a forum posting from them and hope they will see the question and answer it. What is another scary answer fro LL's posting of answers.... Q: What’s the migration process for moving my items from Magic Boxes to Direct Delivery listings? A: The process is not completed yet. Once a process is working in test, we will communicate the details. We are working on a method that will not require each listing to be edited to replace the Magic Box inventory item with a Direct Delivery inventory item. They have been developing this DD all spring. They have been in Closed Beta all summer and into late fall.... and they say today that they have not even figured out yet how this new DD will handle transitioning of content from old to new? Yup... here we go again... migration and transition will be a last minute idea that LL will think of - which will be likely so half baked that it will fail and likely we will all feel the pain. Even those of us that will stay on Magicbox until we are forced off it. (why am I staying on magicbox till LL retires it? Because unlike most of you that seem to have tons of delivery failures, I rarely get them. Maybe a couple a month. Plus I want as many of my fellow Merchants to be the open beta and then the LL Production Beta risk takers. Let you all find the bugs to LL's not yet known transition and what ever other bugs the production deployment will find. Hopefully the DD deployment wont impact those in MP that do not use it. Once all the bugs have been ironed out - I will transition my items to DD.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Paladin Pinion wrote: Josh Susanto wrote: I would, nonetheless, like an explicit confirmation of what the real limit of listed items per user account will be. Also, what if I prefer to just keep usig magic box technology? I think LL's response here was pretty good, it clarified a lot for me. There is no limit to the number of items you may sell. Each item you sell can have up to 200 objects in its folder. You can divide those into subfolders if you want, but regardless of subfolders, no more than 200 objects per listing. Any of those objects can be a box of a zillion other objects, so in reality there is no limit. If you do want to use subfolders, no more than 20 subfolders per item listing. If you want to use sub-sub folders, you can't nest them more than 4 levels deep. Regardless of how many nestings, subfolders, etc. you use, the total number of folders all together cannot exceed 20. That's per listing. There is no limit to the number of items you may list in the marketplace. I'm very pleased about the automatic folder creation for already-boxed items. That means all I have to do is drag my master copies into the out box and I'm done -- especially if LL can finish up the automatic marketplace linking. That'd be a nice touch. Then I wouldn't even have to change my existing listings, they'd just connect up automagically. TOY: only if you use the LL Viewer. This feature does not work on any other viewers from what I read. The other viewer makers need to adopt the new API for DD. Do you know any that have? TOY: It also was not clear how the items actuall interface with the listings in MP. LL didnt say it was automagically... they said they are still working on this and will provide details. Right now the process to link your current content to the current listing by means of DD is a manual process as Darrius described. As for magic boxes, the FAQ says you can continue to use them and there is no cutoff deadline. In fact, the beta grid has a place to pick up a magic box customized for the beta test so that you can see how they work alongside the new system. TOY: You said you read the FAQ but the FAQ didnt say that exactly. They said that there will be a cutoff of Magicboxes eventually as they are retired in stages. So... a Merchant CANNOT plan to stay on Magicboxes for ever. Only until LL retires them. Knowing LL it will be a quick retirement so some LL management can ge their bonus for finishing a project. I really need to find some time to go and test it. I'm actually kind of jazzed about this. The delivery problems people have had should be a thing of the past when this is done. One thing I do depend on is ANS. The FAQ says there will be a similar substitute. I'd like to see that in testing too, because I rely on it so much. I may have to keep my magic box around for my one product that needs ANS. TOY: Still a ton of questions not answered and that LL didnt even see in this thread that were clearly asked. I am shocked Paladin... honestly, did you really have that many delivery failures as a merchant of MP? How many a month? If you are like me and it was only a couple a month, would it really be worth all this hassle of transition to solve a few failures a month? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Paladin, Excellent recap .. short, sweet, to the point. Well done and thank you. Now for a general target "Personal Story" ... (cuz you know I gotta, right?) When I first began programming in High School, I was smitten with those posters printed on long lengths of teletype paper showing some really neat picture made from printed characters. My favorite was a downhill skier cutting a particularly groovy roostertail in some fresh powder. So I set out to write a program to make those pictures. My first version allowed up to 1000 lines in the picture and up to 5 printed/blank pairs per line. That meant I could have no more that 5 gaps in a line and no more than 5 printed areas per line. I hand-coded that skier picture and printed out my version. Super neat-o! It worked! So I showed it to my CompSci Teacher. Typical for him, he handed me a picture and told me to hand code it too. It didn't take me long to realize it had some lines that would require up to 14 printed/blank pairs per line. GACK! I'd structured the whole program on that 5 pair limit. To triple that would require 3 times the code! I was gobsmacked. I hung my head, wandered into his office and confessed to my failure. He set down his coffee, kinda squinted at me for a bit, (he was a nose twitcher in class .. seriously) and said "I doubt that. Now go back and think it through. You'll find an answer." Then he pointed at another copy of the same picture on his wall and mentioned that my arch-rival predecessor (the kid whose reputation I had been chasing all through CompSci) had done that one. Consider the gauntlet ... thrown down! The *point* of this personal story is ... these obscure and illogical limits (200 items per listing, 20 folders in the item structure, 4 levels max depth, 100 folders in the Outbox at a time) seem like "first pass" efforts. They feel like the outcome of incomplete "think through". Why would they limit the number of items per listing? Why limit the complexity and depth of the folder tree? Have they built a rigid structure that allows that many at most? I certainly hope my "gut" is wrong or this switch to DD is going to be very interesting as we bump into more and more limits that no one thought about beforehand. It would really help if we had daily answers to our questions and not weekly ... or worse, "whenever". (BTW: My solution was to rewrite the program so that the FIRST numeric entry for each line told how many pairs of printed/blank there were on that line. That allowed me to encode pictures with an unlimited number of pairs per line, allowing me to produce some very complex and elegant posters. (I later modified it to include character patterns too, for that more subtle shading effect). My predecessor's solution? Brute force ... he just wrote a lot more code.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Darrius Gothly wrote: Why would they limit the number of items per listing? Why limit the complexity and depth of the folder tree? Have they built a rigid structure that allows that many at most? Nice story D But re DD, maybe think more about the impact of people getting deliveries of unpacked items that bump their inventory count up by a thousand or more in one purchase. Sure, people currently buy things like skin and texture packs with thousands of things in various boxes, etc, but they don't usually unpack every single thing, only the options they plan to use. I personally would have set the limits lower from an inventory speed/management point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Hancroft Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Toysoldier Thor wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: Does anyone understand how one would go about updating something that you intend to keep the same name? Will I have to go into some page in my MP store like inventory and delete something before I can add a new one with the same name? Been asked by me a few times in two threads. Been asked by others in this thread. Apparently LL did not see this repeatedly asked question and as they said, we now have to wait another week for a forum posting from them and hope they will see the question and answer it. What is another scary answer fro LL's posting of answers.... Q: What’s the migration process for moving my items from Magic Boxes to Direct Delivery listings? A: The process is not completed yet. Once a process is working in test, we will communicate the details. We are working on a method that will not require each listing to be edited to replace the Magic Box inventory item with a Direct Delivery inventory item. They have been developing this DD all spring. They have been in Closed Beta all summer and into late fall.... and they say today that they have not even figured out yet how this new DD will handle transitioning of content from old to new? Yup... here we go again... migration and transition will be a last minute idea that LL will think of - which will be likely so half baked that it will fail and likely we will all feel the pain. Even those of us that will stay on Magicbox until we are forced off it. (why am I staying on magicbox till LL retires it? Because unlike most of you that seem to have tons of delivery failures, I rarely get them. Maybe a couple a month. Plus I want as many of my fellow Merchants to be the open beta and then the LL Production Beta risk takers. Let you all find the bugs to LL's not yet known transition and what ever other bugs the production deployment will find. Hopefully the DD deployment wont impact those in MP that do not use it. Once all the bugs have been ironed out - I will transition my items to DD.) This was exactly MY thought too, Toy Dude. If they have been "closed beta-ing" for a year or so, wouldn't this have already been figured out? I mean...migrating items from magic boxes to direct delivery is the single most important part of the whole equation, right? I find it hard to believe that THAT part hasn't been figured out yet. Something smells fishy about that. So I say; "Yup..here we go again" as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyo Darcy Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Oh my god. I just did read the DD Faq and I believe what some of you already wrote. This update will be a complicated mess and a hell of new work. Exspecially: Once those items have appeared in your Marketplace inventory, for each item you will be able to create a new listing or associate it with an existing listing. When one of your items is sold, the Marketplace will deliver the item (as a folder) to the customer's Received Items folder. That sounds for me so that I do have to link all my excisting SLM listings to the new folders in my inventory. If so we will have a hell of work. I have round about 100 or more items and I think this work will drive me crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Miyo Darcy wrote: That sounds for me so that I do have to link all my excisting SLM listings to the new folders in my inventory. If so we will have a hell of work. I have round about 100 or more items and I think this work will drive me crazy. Q: What’s the migration process for moving my items from Magic Boxes to Direct Delivery listings? A: The process is not completed yet. Once a process is working in test, we will communicate the details. We are working on a method that will not require each listing to be edited to replace the Magic Box inventory item with a Direct Delivery inventory item. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Direct-Delivery-questions/m-p/1207701#M11477 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyo Darcy Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Thank you Zanara. I did not read that. So I have hope now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 ok, well I object to an anonymous person deciding who is "stable" and who gets to ask questions without becoming someone's whipping post for the day. Everyone needs to ask every single question because some are just reading and that's the only way they can get a grip. These questions have been asked for months on end. Generally, the only time we get a response is when someone becomes "hysterical" - - if that's become the method to get answers for the non-tech oriented or the outside-of-the-LL-circle-getting-personalized-service merchants, than it is what it is. We did not make it that way - it became that way due to lack of assistance. I don't have a clue what Aditi is. Step One. The information starts off with assuming that everyone knows what Aditi is. Never heard of it. Sounded like an app that I would have to buy. Even after reading - don't particularly care to mess with any settings on the program in order to use it. If I mess up on that - it will be a week before a support ticket is answered. When it is answered - it generally is so aggravating that I want to kill off Mickey and leave. So, on that simple Step One - have concluded that one will have to be a tech geek in order to even experiment with the thing. Yeah - skimmed the rest, but it doesn't do much good if you can't get past step one. Sounds to me like they can't answer a ton of questions because they are not sure yet. After a year? Pretty basic questions here - - if the basic process has not been nailed - - that is worrisome. But.....NOT A TECH GEEK.....just an assumption. That's all I've got. Maybe you've got ample hours in your day to study all this and to start from square one, once it is employed. Most don't. Those inventories were built over the years. Excessive time. To rebuild and re-list and re-categorize within your inventory - to unbox - to start counting items in a box - to think that you might have to re-work your whole packaging concept - to think that you might have to re-list each product..... yeah....that might cause a wee bit of hysteria. That took years. You don't have that much inventory - so no, it's not a concern for you. Josh has an excellent business model, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 You raise a very important point Mickey ... those of us that are tech geeks are squabbling over what the Wiki means. Those that aren't bit-brains have got to be standing on the sidelines waiting for the trains to collide. If anything can help LL roll out the Direct Delivery feature with the most success possible, good documentation and support is it. They jus' gotta 'splain it lotz better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Pinion Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 TOY: only if you use the LL Viewer. This feature does not work on any other viewers from what I read. The other viewer makers need to adopt the new API for DD. Do you know any that have? It won't take long for third party viewers to catch up. Every new implementation over the years has been adopted by the major players. You know that, so this is a red herring. By the time this method is final I can promise your viewer will support it. If you don't believe that, you could ask the authors of whichever viewer you are using. TOY: It also was not clear how the items actuall interface with the listings in MP. LL didnt say it was automagically... they said they are still working on this and will provide details. Right now the process to link your current content to the current listing by means of DD is a manual process as Darrius described. That's why it isn't a released feature yet. It is still in development, which takes time, and requires testing so that the developers can figure out the most efficient way to proceed. Since you aren't willing to help with that process, and you don't want to bother with the beta grid, it shouldn't affect you at all. When the final procedure is in place you will get the benefits without any effort on your part. If you aren't helping to test, you will never need to bother going to SLM and changing your listings. LL has stated the behavior is the final goal, and it will be done for you by the time it is ready. You can sit back and wait. TOY: You said you read the FAQ but the FAQ didnt say that exactly. They said that there will be a cutoff of Magicboxes eventually as they are retired in stages. True. But that will be far enough off that for all reasonable interpretations, it is currently indefinite. LL has no current deadline. I suppose if you want to fret about something, you can worry about it. Since the final implementation isn't due for release until Q1, your magic box is safe for at least another four to six months or so. And after that, if there are still issues to be worked out (ANS is a concern for me) then the boxes will have to remain even longer. I am shocked Paladin... honestly, did you really have that many delivery failures as a merchant of MP? How many a month? If you are like me and it was only a couple a month, would it really be worth all this hassle of transition to solve a few failures a month? I dont see this as much of a hassle at all, to be honest, especially after the LL clarifications. I will be able to drag-drop my product boxes into an outbox folder and that will be the end of it. I won't even need to manually create enclosing folders. Tthe reason for deliveriy problems is the interaction between the magic boxes and the LL servers. I'm not sure why you are so opposed to a solution that will solve these issues. Even a single failure is one too many; zero failures is the only correct answer. I think if you revise your paradigm it would help. If you stop thinking of the folder as a storage location and start thinking of it like an email outbox, the analogy lines up better. When you send an email, it disappears unless you save a copy of it locally. The email is removed from your drive and sent to a remote recipient. Same here; your item is removed from the outbox and received at the other end by the marketplace. It will function almost exactly like email, with the (eventual) added advantage of automatically updating your listing on the marketplace. I think that sounds quite elegant. I still hope you will actually try it on the beta grid so that you understand the functionality. And please keep in mind that development is not yet complete, and that this is still an ongoing process. That's why it hasn't been released for general use yet. If there are problems or changes that need to be made, this is exactly the right time to do it. LL wants us to find problems -- that's why we are invited to help. There is no reason for them not to want to make the experience as easy and efficient as possible. Things will undoubtedly change as the new method is revised and improved. That's what testing is all about. Darius' story is a good one. If LL finds the limitations are unproductive, they will have to change them. There is no reason for them to intentionally make things behave badly for us. It hurts their business and their bottom line. Happy merchants and a full marketplace are good for both us and them. They have every reason to want to make this succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Pinion Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Darrius Gothly wrote: If anything can help LL roll out the Direct Delivery feature with the most success possible, good documentation and support is it. They jus' gotta 'splain it lotz better! Totally agree. A product I use daily for development has recently started using their developers' notes to update the documentation and now it is entirely geek-speak. Even those of us who sort of know what they're trying to say can't always figure out the docs. The jargon is just too thick. What's needed is a geek interpreter. Torley used to do that really well. I hope they let him do that again, he was a natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 >I gave you the answer, Josh, in the following line of my post that you decided to delete when quoting, LOL. Or maybe I didn't. Check again. I also know how the back edit button works. Don't assume I won't start taking screen shots of your posts, Zanara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Paladin Pinion wrote: TOY: only if you use the LL Viewer. This feature does not work on any other viewers from what I read. The other viewer makers need to adopt the new API for DD. Do you know any that have? It won't take long for third party viewers to catch up. Every new implementation over the years has been adopted by the major players. You know that, so this is a red herring. By the time this method is final I can promise your viewer will support it. If you don't believe that, you could ask the authors of whichever viewer you are using. Toy: you may be right - you may be wrong. You nor I do not know this. But considering that Firestorm is still in Beta and possibly in beta into the new year and that Phoenix/Firestorm are the market leaders of SL viewers - chances are that you are wrong and that no one other than the LL viewer will have this functionality. Time will tell but as of right now - your statement is incorrect. TOY: It also was not clear how the items actuall interface with the listings in MP. LL didnt say it was automagically... they said they are still working on this and will provide details. Right now the process to link your current content to the current listing by means of DD is a manual process as Darrius described. That's why it isn't a released feature yet. It is still in development, which takes time, and requires testing so that the developers can figure out the most efficient way to proceed. Since you aren't willing to help with that process, and you don't want to bother with the beta grid, it shouldn't affect you at all. When the final procedure is in place you will get the benefits without any effort on your part. If you aren't helping to test, you will never need to bother going to SLM and changing your listings. LL has stated the behavior is the final goal, and it will be done for you by the time it is ready. You can sit back and wait. Toy: The fact that you actually agree that LL is still in development on a function that supposed has passed thru development and even closed Beta is a major factor / indicator that this rollout to production is going to be another example of LL Development bugs and terribly planned deployment. My prduction - We Merchants are going to be suffering from this LL deployment in the new year even moreso than the suffering we all felt and many are still feeling from LL's disgusting Sept change fiasco. I dont know what IT / software development background you have Paladin, but I do have lots. And when I hear LL openly announce after 8 months of design, development and even closed beta that they are only now still trying to figure out MagicBox transition solution to DD.... WAVE THE RED FLAGS HIGH... but if you wanna take the stance that you trust LL's development & deployment and that all things will be worked out when LL forces this to the production environment in the new year. Thats your call. Just be ready then for me to tell you .... I TOLD YOU DO. TOY: You said you read the FAQ but the FAQ didnt say that exactly. They said that there will be a cutoff of Magicboxes eventually as they are retired in stages. True. But that will be far enough off that for all reasonable interpretations, it is currently indefinite. LL has no current deadline. I suppose if you want to fret about something, you can worry about it. Since the final implementation isn't due for release until Q1, your magic box is safe for at least another four to six months or so. And after that, if there are still issues to be worked out (ANS is a concern for me) then the boxes will have to remain even longer. So Paladin, what have you been told through the back channels of LL staff about when the MagicBoxes will be retired? You seem to be confident that LL will not retire magicboxes for a long time until its safe. Come on ... tell us more. What are you so confident about regarding magicbox retirement. PS - may I ask if you were one of the DD Closed Beta Merchants? am shocked Paladin... honestly, did you really have that many delivery failures as a merchant of MP? How many a month? If you are like me and it was only a couple a month, would it really be worth all this hassle of transition to solve a few failures a month? I dont see this as much of a hassle at all, to be honest, especially after the LL clarifications. I will be able to drag-drop my product boxes into an outbox folder and that will be the end of it. I won't even need to manually create enclosing folders. Tthe reason for deliveriy problems is the interaction between the magic boxes and the LL servers. I'm not sure why you are so opposed to a solution that will solve these issues. Even a single failure is one too many; zero failures is the only correct answer. TOY: Where did you get information that it will be SO EASY AND SIMPLE - "as easy as that". You just admited and LL openly stated that they have NOT worked out how the transition process from Magicbox to DD will work. Please explain how this automated process will be able to flip out the content in my magicbox and go into all my MP listings and automagically change my pointers from magicbox to DD? I give you credit for being so confident about a process that LL has not even created and seems to be an afterthought of their development since they are ONLY NOW starting to try to figure out how this transition process might work. Ignorance and blind trust in a company that has aproven HORRID software development record is bliss I guess. At least you are not stressed out about your SL business. I think if you revise your paradigm it would help. If you stop thinking of the folder as a storage location and start thinking of it like an email outbox, the analogy lines up better. When you send an email, it disappears unless you save a copy of it locally. The email is removed from your drive and sent to a remote recipient. Same here; your item is removed from the outbox and received at the other end by the marketplace. It will function almost exactly like email, with the (eventual) added advantage of automatically updating your listing on the marketplace. I think that sounds quite elegant. TOY: I have read enough of the LL confusing FAQ to realize that LL's deployment of this DD does not make the OUTBOX a storage location. Its wrong and misguided but that is what it is. That the content in the OUTBOX disappears instead of it being a MASTER COPY was a horridly stupid idea - but that is what they did. I dont know who gave the LL Developers this stupid idea but ohh well. All us merchants will eventually have to add this extra MP store maintenance effort to your work on MP. LL doesnt care if what they create causes more inefficiency to the Merchants - not their problem - its ours. still hope you will actually try it on the beta grid so that you understand the functionality. And please keep in mind that development is not yet complete, and that this is still an ongoing process. That's why it hasn't been released for general use yet. If there are problems or changes that need to be made, this is exactly the right time to do it. LL wants us to find problems -- that's why we are invited to help. There is no reason for them not to want to make the experience as easy and efficient as possible. Things will undoubtedly change as the new method is revised and improved. That's what testing is all about. TOY: NOPE I will not be participating in this OPEN BETA. First of all... like most SL Merchants, this is the first I ever heard of this beta grid/MO environment. Its becoming clear which merchants were in the Closed Beta... its the ones that are posting in this thread that this beta grid is old news and easy to get into and makes total sense. Most of the rest of us never heard of it... have no clue how to log into it.... how it works. I assume you were one of the Closed Beta Merchants. Anyway... as I have already explained... I am not a customer of LL, SL, and the MP to become one of LL's unpaid beta code testers. Nothing I would do in this test grid and to test DD would do anything to improve when LL developed or will deploy. BUT the fact that 99% of the MP Merchant will not participate in the DD Beta tests does not give LL ANY EXCUSE that they can shirk their responsibilities to provide proper, full and detailed communicated information on the DD and how it works and answer Merchant's questions and concerns. If you or LL or anyone else is trying to lay the Guilt Trip at my feet or any other Merchant's feet that "if you dont try DD in the Open Beta then you dont deserve to know more than the little confusing limited information LL is providing", yo uwill get the middle finger from me aimed at you or anyone that dares telling me that. IT IS LL's RESPONSIBILITY TO INFORM ALL THEIR CUSTOMER BASE HWN THEY PLAN TO MAKE CHANGES THAT WILL IMPACT THEIR CUSTOMERS. Darius' story is a good one. If LL finds the limitations are unproductive, they will have to change them. There is no reason for them to intentionally make things behave badly for us. It hurts their business and their bottom line. Happy merchants and a full marketplace are good for both us and them. They have every reason to want to make this succeed. TOY: Nice dreaming to think LL actually fixes its mistakes and makes improvements to poor code and poor service. Have you looked at how many LL JIRA's are dead and stale with a status "sometime in the future when hell freezes over" or how many of LL's MP missing functions from 2010 are still in the incomplete abandoned status that they were in when MP was deployed? When LL deploys DD - and once they get through about 1 or 2 months of bug fixes that cripple MP - they will move on to other pet projects of theirs.... they will not be improving code like Darrius did as a child. You and Darrius are both dreaming if you think LL will be improving poorly written code. History has said they wont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Pinion Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I hardly know where to start, so this will be my last response. You're a lot like Sesame Street's Tulley -- you imagine all sorts of dire things and get very upset about events that have not yet occurred and which may never happen. That's beyond my ability to address, so I'll just make a couple of comments and then leave you to imagine some kind of projected hell. Toy: The fact that you actually agree that LL is still in development on a function that supposed has passed thru development and even closed Beta is a major factor / indicator that this rollout to production is going to be another example of LL Development bugs and terribly planned deployment. My prduction - We Merchants are going to be suffering from this LL deployment in the new year even moreso than the suffering we all felt and many are still feeling from LL's disgusting Sept change fiasco. I dont know what IT / software development background you have Paladin, but I do have lots. I'm a software developer who runs a software company which produces custom software solutions for business and education. The normal, proven software development cycle goes like this: Initial development In-house testing Closed beta testing to a selected group of qualified testers Open beta testing with a wider out-of-house group Final public release In between each step is a sub-cycle of revisions, changes, sometimes backtracking, and re-testing. Only when revisions pass through complete testing on one level does the software test process proceed to the next level. Any substantial changes to interface or coding require the cycle to begin over again. This is exactly what is happening here, which is why I say that LL is doing due diligence. Initial development was followed by a closed group of testers under NDA. Because this is an early stage it is likely it took many revisions to polish the software to the state where it could move to stage 4. We are at stage 4 now, with a more open group of testers providing feedback. As issues are found, the cycle may need to backtrack by a full stage or more; if the issues are minor, there will only be repeated tests in the beta grid. The fact that it took months to get to this point is not unusual. We have no idea how many revisions or re-testing stages were necessary before LL felt the existing software was suitable for a wider test group. So Paladin, what have you been told through the back channels of LL staff about when the MagicBoxes will be retired? You seem to be confident that LL will not retire magicboxes for a long time until its safe. Come on ... tell us more. What are you so confident about regarding magicbox retirement. PS - may I ask if you were one of the DD Closed Beta Merchants? If I was, I would be under NDA and couldn't say. But no, I was not. My comments were based simply on knowledge of how software development works, and a basic understanding of how a business works. The one thing I consider a given is that the company will not do anything intentionally to hurt themselves; businesses always strive for the best possible outcome. Making life difficult for merchants will hurt their business, therefore if there are issues, it is not intentional. If only a few of us help test the product, then there will be undiscovered bugs. Software always has bugs, there is no such things as bug-free software. The goal in software development is to create the fewest possible bugs, and to triage known issues so that those that remain will affect the fewest possible users. That's why I am convinced that LL will not do anything intentionally to harm themselves. Harming their own business and marketplace model is not one of their goals. It's just common sense. TOY: Where did you get information that it will be SO EASY AND SIMPLE - "as easy as that". You just admited and LL openly stated that they have NOT worked out how the transition process from Magicbox to DD will work. Please explain how this automated process will be able to flip out the content in my magicbox and go into all my MP listings and automagically change my pointers from magicbox to DD? That's not what I said. I said it would be as easy as moving my boxed inventory to a folder. I do keep copies of my original marketplace items in my inventory; I do not trust an object on a sim to remain undeleted or intact, that seems very risky. So for me, all I need to do is drag my existing inventory items from one folder into another. LL stated in their response that for boxed items, that is all we'll need to do. If you are asking about the automatic linking of existing listings with outbox folders, I know exactly as much as I've been told in the response on this forum. LL says it will happen, they are working on the implementation, and when it is ready they will explain it. I have no reason to think that isn't true. Again, it is good business sense for them to make life as easy as possible for their customers. I didn't expect an automatic link-up, and I think that's a really nice touch. Thoughtful, even. TOY: NOPE I will not be participating in this OPEN BETA. First of all... like most SL Merchants, this is the first I ever heard of this beta grid/MO environment. That's a little surprising to me, but I'm a scripter so maybe that's the difference, because a lot of scripters and builders use the beta grid for their own testing. The beta grid has been around since before I joined over 4 years ago. It is a separate grid, unrelated to the "real" one, which gives you money to use for testing and lots of space to work on new scripts, builds, and other things without any upload fees or real-grid repercussions. The links in the FAQ will tell you how to sign on there. Anyone can use the beta grid, it is open to all. Note that it is a separate place, and things you upload or create there cannot be transfered to the main grid. It is a testing venue only. The beta grid is by no means new, and many areas are always well-populated. If you read the status reports on your dashboard, you will see references to the beta grid and what is currently being tested at any given time over there. Its becoming clear which merchants were in the Closed Beta... its the ones that are posting in this thread that this beta grid is old news and easy to get into and makes total sense. Sorry, no. I've been using the beta grid for 4 years. To get there you only need to toggle a preference that allows you to choose which grid to log into. At least, that's how I do it in the LL viewer. The last time I used Phoenix, I believe the grid list was always visible. The name of the beta grid is Aditi. Just choose it from the list and log in normally. That's it for me then. I can't imagine how much energy you put into jousting with windmills, but my own approach is to see if LL is following accepted software development procedures (they are,) to report anything I find wrong using the proper channels (JIRA), and to help make things better if I notice something awry. Proper and professional reporting does help. I received a personal thank you about a year ago from one of the Lindens simply for submitting a detailed, professional bug report through proper channels. On the two occasions I've done that, I have found they do listen, they do want to improve, and they do want to make their customers happy. If I were them, I'd be very discouraged by the hatred that gets spewed at them on these forums. I'd want to stop reading it, and focus my attention only on the official database where the real bug reports are handled. It is to their credit that they are willing to plow through this drek to address the issues that are important. I suppose you don't use JIRA either though. Those of us who work in the biz know where to report and how to get results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Well it's very clear in this thread who was involved in Beta and who is getting special assistance. Not to mention seeming somewhat brainwashed. Feel for you on that - that won't last forever. Wait until they click a button that destroys your business for a few months. Or longer. I'm getting really tired of the those people who are getting special assistance coming in here to the forum and speaking for ME or others as to how we should be approaching this as if you are a representative from the Lindens. I want the instructions and explanations to come from the Lindens. I don't know jack about IT - but I've run retail on many web sites - and I've used similar web sites to sell million dollar items....and the "developers" of those web sites never had to cover their azzes on a daily basis. I don't even recall any glitches. If they did have some - they handled it properly. If you're a software developer - and you can't see what the problem is here - and you cannot see how poorly this whole system is run - - that's just scary. The marketplace is not a toy. It's not an experiment. Full blown business is going on there. They have people with livelihoods here counting on things to work everyday. We are not lab rats. If we are - - then they need to add some disclaimers to that effect and they need to pull the pay-off system entirely. When you supply a system to get paid for merchandise - then people are going to bust it out and dang sure do it to the max. They've never taken responsibility for those people. Unless of course they are the handful of people who continually get tagged for special services and perks and inside information and beta tests. Personally - - I think they are choosing the wrong people. I've looked at those people's stores - and they don't have much going on. eta: you've got 15 or 16 items listed. Sorry to be blunt, but that ain't a store. Do not speak for me or tell me how I should feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Pinion Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I was not in the closed beta program, the Lindens give me no special assistance, and I am no different than you are. I'm pretty sure they don't even know my name -- the person who wrote me that email last year is no longer with the company. I'm just a user who doesn't happen to hate SL and who doesn't get a kick from bashing it. I think what they have produced here is amazing, and knowing how software works (especially in today's economy,) I understand some of the hurdles they've had to overcome. I have no particular association with LL in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 As a Merchant, you will send folders to your Marketplace inventory that you plan to list for sale. You will do this by placing items in a system folder called the Merchant Outbox and sending the contents to your Marketplace inventory. Each top level folder in the Merchant Outbox represents one sellable item in the Marketplace. Once all folders are successfully sent to the Marketplace, they will disappear from the Merchant Outbox. Where do my items go, when they disappear from my Outbox? What is this marketplace inventory exactly? Can you please explain more about this? Can I enter my marketplace inventory, can I edit my marketplace inventory? Were will my creations be stored exactly? Actually my most important question is: Can LL garanty the safety of my merchandise in this new inventory system? In world my items are not safe for copybotters or copyclients. To me it seems that adding a new kind of inventory is adding a new place from where my merchandise can possibly be stolen. How can I be sure this is not going to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Pinion Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Madeliefste Oh wrote: As a Merchant, you will send folders to your Marketplace inventory that you plan to list for sale. You will do this by placing items in a system folder called the Merchant Outbox and sending the contents to your Marketplace inventory. Each top level folder in the Merchant Outbox represents one sellable item in the Marketplace. Once all folders are successfully sent to the Marketplace, they will disappear from the Merchant Outbox. Where do my items go, when they disappear from my Outbox? What is this marketplace inventory exactly? Can you please explain more about this? Can I enter my marketplace inventory, can I edit my marketplace inventory? Were will my creations be stored exactly? Actually my most important question is: Can LL garanty the safety of my merchandise in this new inventory system? In world my items are not safe for copybotters or copyclients. To me it seems that adding a new kind of inventory is adding a new place from where my merchandise can possibly be stolen. How can I be sure this is not going to happen? I think I understand how it will work so I'll take a chance. I'm in this thread up to my neck anyway. "Inventory" really just means "database". It's just a list of stuff you own on a server.The only thing that is changing for merchants is how that list of items gets delivered to the marketplace servers. Right now, the marketplace communicates with your magic box via some scripts that report the box's contents. The change will be that instead of communicating with a box, the marketplace servers will read a folder in your inventory. When something new appears in your folder, the marketplace will notice and update its list of things you can sell in your store. Everything else about your store will be the same as it is now. No one can copybot your store listings regardless of how the information arrives there. And since there will be no rezzed objects anywhere, there is nothing in-world to copybot. The marketplace "inventory" is just the list of things you see when you edit your store, nothing more than a list from a database. You will be able to see and work with your store just as you do now. The only thing that's different is where your store gets its item lists from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Paladin Pinion wrote: "Inventory" really just means "database". It's just a list of stuff you own on a server.The only thing that is changing for merchants is how that list of items gets delivered to the marketplace servers. Right now, the marketplace communicates with your magic box via some scripts that report the box's contents. The change will be that instead of communicating with a box, the marketplace servers will read a folder in your inventory. When something new appears in your folder, the marketplace will notice and update its list of things you can sell in your store. Everything else about your store will be the same as it is now. No one can copybot your store listings regardless of how the information arrives there. And since there will be no rezzed objects anywhere, there is nothing in-world to copybot. The marketplace "inventory" is just the list of things you see when you edit your store, nothing more than a list from a database. You will be able to see and work with your store just as you do now. The only thing that's different is where your store gets its item lists from. Do I understand it right that we will get rid of all in world part of the delivery? What I understand is that 'something' is reading the data from my outbox inventory just one time per item. Once the item is known by the marketplace inventory, it is basicly put in a marketplace database, right? This database has only to communicate once per item with my inworld inventory. Then it is 'eaten' by the database. And stored somewhere on LL's servers. But how safe is it there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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