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Ceera Murakami
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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

...

I want to ask one more question to LL... not that they will answer me.  Why cant LL leave the Magicbox model in place permanently instead of retiring it.  Since it clearly will be operating in parallel to the new DD.... why not let us Merchants decide if we want to stay on Magicbox?

 

 

The only things I can think of (and I'm sure there are more than I can come up with off the top of my head):

~ The Magic Boxes are tied to the old Xstreet (for instance, when we want to force updates or check a box status, we still have to go to the old Xstreet site. They probably want to do away with that.

~ The transition for our customers is going to be very very bumpy (In my opinion). Some things that are delivered by Magic Boxes will appear in the regular Objects file, then the others delivered by DD will appear in the DD incoming folder. Customers are going to go nuts trying to figure out where their purchase is in their inventory during the transition. IF that is the case, we as Merchants are not only going to have the implementation of DD on our side to deal with, but also a "transitional" increase in customer questions about "where's my purchase?"

 

Edited to add: Going to bed now. Will check back in the am. Night Night All!

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Cara Ametza wrote: 

They are shoving this down our throats and with the poor communication and lack of good beta testing first it isn't a good idea.


Actually, this is a beta test, so they are doing due diligence. If we want it to work, we should participate on Aditi and find the bugs. It's likely that trying it out will also answer some of the questions we all have.

As I understand it, it won't be too hard for existing merchants because all our items are already boxed in our Magic Boxes. We already have just one item per listing. So to start, it sounds like all we need to do is:

 

  1. Make a folder named for the item
  2. Drop our already-boxed item into it.
  3. Drag the folder into the Merchant Outbox
  4. Change our market listing to point to the new delivery method

It's a little extra work to create the extra folder, but I don't think the rest of it is too bad. None of us have non-boxed items for sale right now, so essentially we're just dropping in content we already have without any changes.

Later, if we decide we want to sell folders of stuff instead of boxes of stuff, most of us can just unbox our item and drop the contents into the named folder. For most of us, the restrictions still won't apply. If you do have hundreds or thousands of things in a single boxed sale item, just leave it in the box as you do now; that way you still only have one item in the folder. Or divvy it up into up to 200 categorized boxes if you want.

I do want to know how to accomplish updates. I'm guessing we just re-send an identically-named folder and it will replace the old one. But I'd like verification of that.

My gut tells me that LL's explanation is worse than the actual practice. I think they need a tech writer.

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If you follow all the links given in the announcement, the info's all there.

TL;DR version:

There's a beta SLM and a beta testing SL, which are copies of the real ones. All your stuff is copied over there and nothing that happens there affects the real grid or real SLM.

We log in to aditi (beta grid) and the aditi SLM, activate our listings there and buy each other's stuff with play money.

You can set up your stuff there with either magic boxes (download the beta one from beta SLM) or DD.

To set up DD, you either put your existing boxed item, or a named folder containing all the loose bits, in the "outgoing/upload/whatever it's currently called" folder. Once it's uploaded from there, you can associate it in your listing as usual.

Following the launch of DD, the option to keep using magic boxes will keep going for a yet-to-be-defined period.

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Josh Susanto wrote:

Somebody please boil it down for me.

When my product line finally tops 4000 items, what will be my options at that point?

Time to stop downloading pictures, sticking them on prims, giving them away and calling it a business? ;p

(If you read up you'll see that 4k is the total limit of items delivered for one product listing.)

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Zanara Zenovka wrote:


Josh Susanto wrote:

Somebody please boil it down for me.

When my product line finally tops 4000 items, what will be my options at that point?

Time to stop downloading pictures, sticking them on prims, giving them away and calling it a business? ;p

(If you read up you'll see that 4k is the total limit of items delivered for
one
product listing.)

LOL beat me to it

I think if people actually read the information provided carefully instead of giving it a quick scan and then complaining about what you think you just read it would make a lot more sense. It's almost like some posters are trying their very best to be as confused as possible 

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Thanks Ann for the link! 

So reading this blog announcement today... it says...

Direct Delivery Beta Testing

In December, all merchants will have the opportunity to purchase and list items using Direct Delivery on Aditi.

Exactly what are Merchants "purchasing"??  So LL is trying to make money on Merchants that already have the guts to beta test their products on a test grid?

Am I missing something here?  Now there is a new way for LL to make money.

Note it is on the Aditi grid where money are not 'real'. Transactions are not going to influence you inworld account.

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Ziggy21 Slade wrote:

 

I think if people actually read the information provided carefully instead of giving it a quick scan and then complaining about what you think you just read it would make a lot more sense. It's almost like some posters are trying their very best to be as confused as possible 

LOL

But where's the fun and drama in that?

Some people would much rather ignore (or willfully misinterpret) any information given and find any possible launching point for yet another hysterical, uninformed rant for their own selfish, ego-driven purposes.

The stupid thing is, we're all in this together, and anyone who has a serious interest in conducting business on the SLM should have a vested interest in trying to work together and test this stuff during development so we can all have the best and most stable delivery system possible - for everyone's benefit.

Sure the SLM isn't perfect and still has a way to go, but anyone who's serious about their business should be doing all they can to help, not hinder, at this stage. I don't particularly enjoy spending my free time doing unpaid testing for the SLM, but if it means improved functionality and a return of consumer confidence in the platform where I make a large portion of my sales, then I'm happy to do it as an investment in future business.

But a small number of people are just using it as a venue for drama and attention-seeking and furthering their own personal agendas and in the process helping no one, and possibly even damaging everyone's business by eroding overall consumer confidence in using the marketplace at all.

And their methodology is so transparent:

1. Ignore or misinterpret every bit of info given and rant hysterically about how corrupt LL are and how they trying to destroy merchants, blah blah, etc.

2a. If DD fails --> "See - I told you so!"     Win!

2b. If DD succeeds --> "Just as well I made such a fuss and got LL to change their evil ways!"    Win!

Meanwhile they contribute absolutely nothing (apart from speading misinformation) while the rest of us actually do the testing, help each other and try to iron out any problems in the system for the benefit of all.

After a while you really have to ask yourself whose side some people are on....

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I see that the LL Defending White Knight Forum Trolls have come in to save LL's reputation again.  Their arrivals are not surprising.  Their "Forum Poster" personal attacking bashing posts were fully expected.  Their value of post is still at ZERO as is expected.

At least these two dont fail to dissapoint.  Cheers to you two!  Now please go save LL's reputation at another thread and let us on this thread that were talking about the OP topic get back to serious adult Big Girl / Big Boy talk :)

 

Now I do hope that when LL Commerce Team wakes up this morning on the west coast of USA that they start answering our questions and clarifying the horrendously confusing DD FAQ communications that LL is good for.

Clearly there is a ton of confusion on how this DD delivery and OUTBOX folder actually works thanks to poor explanation.  We also posted several questions LL Commerce.  Do us a favor and actually try to spend a couple hours of your day today to being more clear in this thread and answering our questions.

 

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Dora Gustafson wrote:


Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Thanks Ann for the link! 

So reading this blog announcement today... it says...

Direct Delivery Beta Testing

In December, all merchants will have the opportunity to purchase and list items using Direct Delivery on Aditi.

Exactly what are Merchants "purchasing"??  So LL is trying to make money on Merchants that already have the guts to beta test their products on a test grid?

Am I missing something here?  Now there is a new way for LL to make money.

Note it is on the Aditi grid where money are not 'real'. Transactions are not going to influence you inworld account.

I misread what they meant by "purchase".  I thought Merchants has to buy something to participate in the Beta Grid.  Thanks for the clarification.

PS...  "where money are not real"  snikker... are Lindens on the main grid "real"?   Jk
;)

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Regarding the DD's OUTBOX process of ingesting MP content up into the Merchant's Store folder.... I am as confused as many other Merchants here that either believes they know what the LL Author was trying to say or was simply confused.

LL also failed to clearly answer the critical question in the FAQ on how does it work for BOXED items being handled with the new DD OUTBOX to MP (which at this point I can assure you the percentage of MP Merchants using Boxed items is 100%). 

They didnt explain AT ALL how a Merchant would update an item on MP after it was initially uploaded.  i.e. if I want to simply replace the boxed item exact in-place (no change of item name being sold) vs if I want to update the item with a versioning approach to the customers (v1.1 v1.2 v1.3).

They didnt explain the triggering process that causes the content placed in the OUTBOX to be sucked up into MP.  Is the OUTBOX monitored for new content? Does it happen at on an hourly basis?  Is there a UPLOAD button the Merchant presses that sucks the content into MP and deletes the OUTBOX content?

But based on what SEEMS to be clear about the process, it seems clear that the LL coding geeks that came up with the solution of this process are not in touch with providing Merchants with an efficient solution.

So here is one aspect that doesnt make sense - specially for those Merchants that plan to go through the extra effort an unbox all their content into these new MP DD folders (and maybe even for us boxed merchants that seems we need a folder for every 1 boxed item instead of just placing our boxed items on the root of the outbox).....

It I have 100 sellable items on MP and LL is saying that each sellable item now needs its own FOLDER in MP now.  Why would the LL Commerce Team not have allowed the folder structure for all these MP selling items to keep the similar folder structure in place in the OUTBOX and just have a process that on-demand one-way synchs the content of the OUTBOX folders up to the MP?  

In this scenario, even if LL is going to force us all to create these dozens, 100s, or 1000's of folders for MP selling items, at least all our MP content is already in our OUTBOX folders and its now only a matter of going to the pre-existing folder of the selling item that needs to be updated, replacing the content with the new content and pressing the SYNCH UP TO MP button.  We Merchant also now could have had the OUTBOX be our MASTER COPY of all our MP items in place and organized in the exact manner that the MP folder structure is on MP.

Again... doesnt seem LL Commerce / Development has any Merchant convenience or operational mindset in place when they came up with this OUTBOX concept ot ingest and delete.

 

Still hoping LL Commerce team will spend today on this forum to FINALLY answer some long awaited answers to their customer's questions, fears, concerms, confusions.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

I see that the LL Defending White Knight Forum Trolls have come in to save LL's reputation again.  Their arrivals are not surprising.  Their "Forum Poster" personal attacking bashing posts were fully expected.  Their value of post is still at ZERO as is expected.

At least these two dont fail to dissapoint.  Cheers to you two!  Now please go save LL's reputation at another thread and let us on this thread that were talking about the OP topic get back to serious adult Big Girl / Big Boy talk
:)

 

Now I do hope that when LL Commerce Team wakes up this morning on the west coast of USA that they start answering our questions and clarifying the horrendously confusing DD FAQ communications that LL is good for.

Clearly there is a ton of confusion on how this DD delivery and OUTBOX folder actually works thanks to poor explanation.  We also posted several questions LL Commerce.  Do us a favor and actually try to spend a couple hours of your day today to being more clear in this thread and answering our questions.

 

I have read and then re-read the entire wiki FAQ about DD, read every post in this thread and I too am confused about the same things, Toy.  I am NOT trying to make up things to be confused about.  I WANT to understand everything.  What I don't need (and indeed don't want) is a Linden Lab "white knight" coming in here and telling me that I'm making it more complicated than it really is and that I must be stupid for not understanding it all (reading between the lines here). 

To the two white knights:  What you posted did nothing to help people understand things about DD but instead, made some people (me at least) feel like we are ignorant or stupid or "doing it wrong."  Need I remind you two that "if you can't say something nice..."? 

I'm glad to hear that this mess won't be forced upon us until after the new year!  I have enough to worry about this holiday season!

I don't do "betas."  I don't use beta versions of viewers (Firestorm and Firestorm Mesh) and I won't be participating in the beta testing on Aditi.  I don't have time to help Linden Lab get their system working properly and all the bugs worked out, nor do I have the technical knowledge to do so.  I will be relying on those merchants who DO have time and the technical knowledge to work out the problems that will come with Direct Delivery. 

I just hope that all the answers we dumb*bleep*es seek in this thread are answered by someone who knows how to talk to people like people and not six year I.T. professionals.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

I see that the LL Defending White Knight Forum Trolls have come in to save LL's reputation again.  Their arrivals are not surprising.  Their "Forum Poster" personal attacking bashing posts were fully expected.  Their value of post is still at ZERO as is expected.

At least these two dont fail to dissapoint.  Cheers to you two!  Now please go save LL's reputation at another thread and let us on this thread that were talking about the OP topic get back to serious adult Big Girl / Big Boy talk
:)

 

 

No.

You've done nothing here so far besides fail to read/comprehend the information already given, and misrepresent the little you have read to try to drum up anti-DD hysteria as usual.

The way for anyone to get a better understanding of the process is to follow instructions and test it out yourself on the beta sites. I've even given you a basic conceptual overview and simplified instructions to get you started.

If you're not willing or capable of doing anything constructive, please get out of the way of those who are. Blowing a lot of hot air and misinformation helps no one.

 

Trying to paint  those who disagree with you as trolls or LL sympathisers is risible, and indicates an inability to engage in any analysis or discussion more complex than simple black and white side-taking.

While I have no need to defend my attempts to try to inject some reason and useful information into this thread, it's clear to anyone who's been around these forums long enough, or who cares to peruse archives and jiras, that I've done more than my share of criticism of SLM  development and other LL issues; I just happen to focus on attempting to provide solutions, not more problems.

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Chelsea Malibu wrote:

A year ago they asked merchant to apply to beta this.  I was not accepted nor was anyone I know.  They claim that beta as been going on since the end of last year. I don't know anyone who was accepted to the beta but if there are, it would be good to hear their experience.

 

^ This

I thought the same thing, Miss Chelsea!  Hasn't Direct Delivery been in "beta" for a year or something?  Why do we need to beta test some more?  Same thing is going on with the Firestorm Viewer.  It's been in beta for how long?  I'm starting to wonder if it will EVER be a viable RC viewer! 

Come on beta testers!  Chime in here!  What have been your experiences?

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Marcus, the Beta testers can't disclose any details due to the agreement they signed. While not every Merchant will participate in the "Open" Beta that's going to be started (for whatever reason they may have), I do see it as a positive move on LL's part. Much better to have an Open Beta for all of us to test (if so desired) and provide feedback.

I just wish the wording of the DD Q&A/FAQ were clearer prior to the Open Beta start date. For those who have read it and understand it, that's great. For those of us that don't quite understand it, or perhaps, understand it but don't see the logic in it, further clarification is necessary.

 

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Regarding the "Snatch and Delete" strategy that DD will be using:

We asked for it!!

Remember the big furor we all raised about them messing around in our Inventories? Well they heard us. And their answer to the problem is to "snatch" the items we want delivered and copy them into a private section of the SLM Database. They then "delete" the stuff from our Inventory Outbox to prevent future problems.

It appears that the whole operation will be triggered from the SLM much the same way as we now trigger a Synch with our Magic Boxes. So we'll load up the Outbox folder (with no more than 20 folders and 200 items max) then tell the SLM to "snatch and delete" and Presto! The stuff we put in the Outbox folder is now available to SLM for listing.

Klunky but .. semi-workable. However the overall conclusion I come to is that it's their "Solution" to our major "Bitch".

Be careful what you ask for ... (is tattooed on my forehead)

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Chelsea Malibu wrote:

A year ago they asked merchant to apply to beta this.  I was not accepted nor was anyone I know.  They claim that beta as been going on since the end of last year. I don't know anyone who was accepted to the beta but if there are, it would be good to hear their experience.

 

I totally agree.  If this CLOSED BETA with the DD Beta Merchants has now officially end and LL is removing the GAG from their mouths, I would so much love to hear my fellow Merchant's opinions on this DD as far as they have experienced.

I would also suspect based on Brooke's and LL Commerce's past history on near zero DD information flow to us, that we will gain a ton of invaluable information from these merchant ... UNBIASED.... that we simply have not been able to get from LL.

As for participating in the open Beta... I am with Marcus.  I will leave the open beta testing of the DD to those Merchants has thave the time, interesting, effort, passion to be part of LL's Q/A testing team and help LL find and fix the bugs. 

MY participation in the open beta would not change anything about DD.  I trust these merchants will find the bugs for LL without me.  I will wait til DD comes out of beta in the new year. :)

BUT... the Merchant community should not be held in a blackmail of "we will only tell you all about DD if you participate int the DD beta".  As part of any proper mature deployment of a change - big one at that - to a customer base, it is fully the responsibility and obligation for the vendor to provide an effective communication strategy as well as transition plan.

We should get our questions anwsered from LL - not from LL's customers that are their beta testers and through the grapevine.  This would be yet another sign of an immature company.

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"WE" did not ask for what you deswcribed Darius.

We asked into the void in the forums for a method of delivery that would NOT deliver content from our personal inventories to the customer.  THAT is what "we" asked for.

I have no problem with the SNATCH aspect of the solution.  The "Delete" aspect is where I do not agree.

Let the OUTBOX be the MASTER copy of the inventory that the MP has a "snatched" mirrored copy of.  Let me maintain this private master copy of all my MP content in this OUTBOX and then... let me press the SYNCH button when I believe I have content that needs to be re-synched from my MASTER copy to the MP Slave copy.

Why delete it?  I can better manage my content in MP from this OUTBOX if it stays in place.

I was careful what I asked for.  This was not what I asked for.

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:

I have read and then re-read the entire wiki FAQ about DD, read every post in this thread and I too am confused about the same things, Toy.  I am NOT trying to make up things to be confused about.  I WANT to understand everything.  What I don't need (and indeed don't want) is a Linden Lab "white knight" coming in here and telling me that I'm making it more complicated than it really is and that I must be stupid for not understanding it all (reading between the lines here). 

To the two white knights:  What you posted did nothing to help people understand things about DD but instead, made some people (me at least) feel like we are ignorant or stupid or "doing it wrong."  Need I remind you two that "if you can't say something nice..."? 

I'm glad to hear that this mess won't be forced upon us until after the new year!  I have enough to worry about this holiday season!

I don't do "betas."  I don't use beta versions of viewers (Firestorm and Firestorm Mesh) and I won't be participating in the beta testing on Aditi.  I don't have time to help Linden Lab get their system working properly and all the bugs worked out, nor do I have the technical knowledge to do so.  I will be relying on those merchants who DO have time and the technical knowledge to work out the problems that will come with Direct Delivery. 

I just hope that all the answers we dumb*bleep*es seek in this thread are answered by someone who knows how to talk to people like people and not six year I.T. professionals.

Marcus - I gave a basic overview here: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Direct-Delivery-questions/m-p/1205975#M11408 and Paladin's post before that is good.

I have no problem with people finding things hard to understand, which is precisely why I posted the above - to help people. What I do object to, as i clearly stated, is those fail to read/comprehend then go trying to stir up hysteria over things that only exist in their own imaginations.

You can log in to aditi SL and the aditi SLM now and try buying stuff (all accounts seem to get 25000L to start with - my penniless alt did anyway) and testing the magic box side of things, but if you don't want to do that then I guess you wait til more info is published on the blog/wiki.

You won't get merchant members of the actual DD beta being able to add any extra info beyond what's already been announced as they're under a non-disclosure agreement.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

It I have 100 sellable items on MP and LL is saying that each sellable item now needs its own FOLDER in MP now.  Why would the LL Commerce Team not have allowed the folder structure for all these MP selling items to keep the similar folder structure in place in the OUTBOX and just have a process that on-demand one-way synchs the content of the OUTBOX folders up to the MP?  

Toy i'm surprised at that.   From what I understood, you didn't want LL anywhere near your inventory so the above while sensible and what I originally expected to be the case, seems to have flown in the face of what you wanted.  Now that things are sucked up to MP and your inventory is left alone, that doesn't suit and you'd rather have it all in your inventory?

EDIT:  Ignore this, I see Darrius already took it up and you replied.  I don't think you'd have been happy if it had still been in your inventory based one previous posts. 

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

We should get our questions anwsered from LL - not from LL's customers that are their beta testers and through the grapevine.  This would be yet another sign of an immature company.

and that is why those in the beta programme won't answer beyond the FAQ even though they know the answers.  The request for more information from LL is a fair one and should be answered by LL.

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Sassy Romano wrote:


Toysoldier Thor wrote:

It I have 100 sellable items on MP and LL is saying that each sellable item now needs its own FOLDER in MP now.  Why would the LL Commerce Team not have allowed the folder structure for all these MP selling items to keep the similar folder structure in place in the OUTBOX and just have a process that on-demand one-way synchs the content of the OUTBOX folders up to the MP?  

Toy i'm surprised at that.   From what I understood, you didn't want LL anywhere near your inventory so the above while sensible and what I originally expected to be the case, seems to have flown in the face of what you wanted.  Now that things are sucked up to MP and your inventory is left alone, that doesn't suit and you'd rather have it all in your inventory?

You are correct Sassy.  What I "WANTED" was for my MP selling content to be completely dis-associated from my personal inventory.  The Magicbox currently gives me that capability. 

Any new DD solution that would have taken the MP content that I made available for MP from a master source that was not from my primary personal Avatar Inventory account would have been - by far - my #1 perfect solution.

And in fact, if LL Commerce truly wanted to resolve the Failed /Delay Delivery problem (and not try to solve the world's woes at the same time) and keep things simple for the 10's of thousands of Merchants of MP... this is what they could have done...

(PS... if you look at the current DD solution - this could have been just aseasily been accomplished)

 

  1. All us Merchants currently have a Magicbox with all our boxed content available to be service the MP
  2. The new DD could have used these MagicBoxes (or even a new DD version of this Magicbox) that is rezzed inworld and used it as the "OUTBOX" source that would be uploaded into the MP DD system.
  3. Instead of synching from a new Inventory system folder within our personal inventory, they could have Master-Slave synched all our current MP content to MP without any changes to our magic boxes - or worst case we would copy all our content from one of our existing magicboxes to this new DD magicbox.
  4. Since the only function / interface this new magicbox would have had was to be the source for a Merchant-triggered synch of MP content to the MP.
  5. All deliveries of the content to the buyers/customers would now be executed from MP to the customer's new PURCHASES system folder as the new DD currently does.

THAT was an example of EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD 100% AGREED TO.

But nope... that made too much sense and LL developers had to try to solve world hungry on a system that is fundamentally unstable and weak already (xstreet / MP).

As a compromise ... since I have no say and LL will develop what they want with no input from their customers/merchants, if LL demanded that the source of the MP synch has to come from the Merchant's actual inventory, then at least let it be a MASTER COPY and not a black hole Dump/Upload/Delete method.  Let the new system OUTBOX folder maintain the 100's of folders that each boxed MP item seems to need.  Saves a lot of troubles, mis-typing of re-creating the folder when one wants to update, allows for a place similar to the Magicbox to maintain a master copy of the content in MP. 

Good back too in case MP's entire asset DB gets corrupted (and we all know you cant say NEVER with LL on destroying their DB).  In this way, if LL screws up the MP DB and when they bring it back up - all I have to do is press the SYNCH button and resynch my master copy of all the content back into the healed DB

THAT is what I said Sassy and nothing I said here flew in the face of what I have always said about how DD should work.

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