Darrius Gothly Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Don't get me wrong Toy, I don't like the Delete part of their solution either. I'd MUCH rather have the Outbox be the Master copy. But the point is, we asked for a solution that would not touch our Inventories during delivery ... and this is how they chose to solve that. We *should* have stated that we want our Outbox to be the Master Copy so they were clear on the preferred solution. By leaving the form of solution open, we failed to fully communicate the scope of the problem and our goals. Because they don't understand how we feel about our Inventory and Products, they did not conceive of a solution that followed our habits/preferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Oh...and this, LOL Toysoldier Thor wrote: As for participating in the open Beta... I am with Marcus. I will leave the open beta testing of the DD to those Merchants has thave the time, interesting, effort, passion to be part of LL's Q/A testing team and help LL find and fix the bugs. MY participation in the open beta would not change anything about DD. I trust these merchants will find the bugs for LL without me. I will wait til DD comes out of beta in the new year. Sooo...what exactly do you plan to contribute around here? I guess by not participating at all, you get to reserve the right to (a) carry on complaining about every single aspect (because you had nothing to do with it) and (b) criticise all the merchants who did help with testing for not doing a good enough job. I see what you did there. Smoooth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Darrius Gothly wrote: Don't get me wrong Toy, I don't like the Delete part of their solution either. I'd MUCH rather have the Outbox be the Master copy. But the point is, we asked for a solution that would not touch our Inventories during delivery ... and this is how they chose to solve that. We *should* have stated that we want our Outbox to be the Master Copy so they were clear on the preferred solution. By leaving the form of solution open, we failed to fully communicate the scope of the problem and our goals. Because they don't understand how we feel about our Inventory and Products, they did not conceive of a solution that followed our habits/preferences. LOL Darrius, I dont know about you but no one from LL every ASKED me for any input. When you said "we should have asked", I didnt know there was a time when we were ever listened to where we could have sat down with LL and told them this is what we would like to see IF you really want to tackle the problem of Delivery Failures from the Magicbox. To be clear, I always stated that I did not want MP DD to have ANY interaction with our inventory. If you look back in our thread discussions, I have always said what I just told Sassy earlier. I wanted a model where the MASTER SOURCE stayed as an independent rezzed object apart from our inventory. I dont know when you say "we should have not been more open ended when asking LL" that that meant LL Commerce Staff actually sat down with you and some others on how Merchants would see the solution. If I had that opportunity - which I did ask many times for this to happen and which Brooke completely ignored - I would not have asked for anything close to what was deployed here. But as you already know... LL Commerce and the Development geeks love NOT BEING FOCUSED and always end up trying to throw in all these knee-jerk wish lists into what should have been a simple solution to the magicbox problem. The problem that LL was supposed to solve was: ADDRESS THE CURRENT DELIVERY FAILURE ISSUE THAT XSTREET/MP HAS BECAUSE OF THE CURRENT MAGICBOX/MP SOLUTION. The problem did not include : make it easier for Merchants to manage their MP inventory by integrating it into the Merchant's Personal Inventory make it possible to sell MP content unboxed eliminate the entire concept of the Magicbox Find a solution that will make is so painful for merchants to transition that we will clean up lower valued, older, and free items from the Merchant's current inventory The solution should have included: make sure that the new solution has the least amount of transition disruption to the Merchants make sure the DD solution is not more of a hassle by the Merchant to manage MP content than the current solution make sure the solution has the lowest level of risks to the Merchants because of potential LL system component failures But nope... LL felt they needed to overhaul the entire current solution from the bottom up - this mean in LL Development's mind that MAGICBOX = EVIL ! This was/is a false assumption. The magicbox in and of itself was never the source of the problem - it was the poor delivery mechanism built into the Magicbox and its interface with MP and the sim and the buyer's status etc. The magicbox could have been an integral part of the new DD solution (as I described in my posting in this thread to Sassy). Ohh well - next time the "WE" of us merchants that are allowed to provide advice to LL might be more transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Ziggy21 Slade wrote: Zanara Zenovka wrote: Josh Susanto wrote: Somebody please boil it down for me. When my product line finally tops 4000 items, what will be my options at that point? Time to stop downloading pictures, sticking them on prims, giving them away and calling it a business? ;p (If you read up you'll see that 4k is the total limit of items delivered for one product listing.) It's almost like some posters are trying their very best to be as confused as possible Some of us don't have to try very hard at all -- I am almost always confused by any new information that involves technology more complicated than a screwdriver. No I still don't understand about the 20 folders. Maybe a picture? Or act it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Much of this day has gone by and even though the LL Commerce Team recent blog mentioned the forum would be a place to ask questions - where are the posted answers from LL? When are they coming. /ME taps on the thread glass to see if anyone at LL Commerce is home and plans to answer our questions or if the link to the forums to get questions answered was just a "joy Buzzer" link to oblivion where LL can "forget" to meet its commitments. Pamela, I completely agree about a picture. As a RL systems architect... I love talking and learning and understanding via a picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 >Time to stop downloading pictures, sticking them on prims, giving them away and calling it a business? I'll do that if you can persuade everyone to stop paying for them and asking me to make more. Deal? (and this next part was totally here all along, right?) >(If you read up you'll see that 4k is the total limit of items delivered for one product listing.) Where does it explicitly say that there will not be a 4000 item limit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 >There is no 4000 item limit Josh Zanara, do you see how easy that was? OTOH, Sassy probably doesn't get some kind of feeling of compensatory superiority out of that, so I guess there would have been nothing in it for you. Even when I do as a simple question to whuch someone has an answer, it seems I can still do no right by some people here. Thanks for reminding me not to bother next time to use this forum as prescribed by my critics. That said, the explanation still looks to me like there is no 4000 object limit. My question is not about an object limit, but about an item limit, which it still looks to me like there is. Am I still confused? How? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Josh Susanto wrote: >There is no 4000 item limit Josh That said, the explanation still looks to me like there is no 4000 object limit. My question is not about an object limit, but about an item limit, which it still looks to me like there is. Read it again... >There is no 4000 item limit Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 "And their methodology is so transparent: 1. Ignore or misinterpret every bit of info given and rant hysterically about how corrupt LL are and how they trying to destroy merchants, blah blah, etc. 2a. If DD fails --> "See - I told you so!" Win! 2b. If DD succeeds --> "Just as well I made such a fuss and got LL to change their evil ways!" By "their", it's clear that you mean "Josh's". But I hadn't done any of this in the current thread. All I did was ask a question that I think a lot of other people will also be asking, for which you have rewarded me by pre-emptively attacking my projected criticism of failures you already insist, despite every possible empirical precedent, cannot happen. 1) I'm just doing the math and re-reading the explanation to see how more than 4000 objects can be listed as more than 4000 items under the new system. I haven't misinterpreted anything, because the pertinent explanation, if it exists, is not even present in order to be misinterpreted. 2) I don't win when if DD fails. My schadenfreude will be a pretty lousy concelleation prize when business, again, comes pointlessly grinding to a halt. 3) I have no confidence in LL producing any kind of result for DD in the next year for which I would want to share any of the "credit". OTOH, if they somehow fail to break things and my business continues unthwarted, I can certainly live with that. It's why I'm here and it's what I would much prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Josh Susanto wrote: 1) I'm just doing the math and re-reading the explanation to see how more than 4000 objects can be listed as more than 4000 items under the new system. I haven't misinterpreted anything, because the pertinent explanation, if it exists, is not even present in order to be misinterpreted. It's all in the FAQ, let me show you:- "Each top level folder in the Merchant Outbox represents one sellable item in the Marketplace. Once all folders are successfully sent to the Marketplace, they will disappear from the Merchant Outbox. " Note, there is no mention of only being allowed 20 folders here, NONE, ZERO. Next:- "For products listed on the Marketplace using direct delivery, the number of objects per folder and number of folders will be limited. This will require merchants selling large numbers of objects in the same listing to box objects within their folder hierarchy. The total number of folders is currently set at 20, and the number of total objects for each folder hierarchy (each set of items to list) cannot exceed 200." So logic would deduce that these constraints refers to an item listing for one item. Now if people prefer to argue against logic and say "oh but it's LL" that's fine, makes no difference to me. The FAQ has the answers. There is no statement that there's a limit of 4000 items that can be sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 What if you have to make a change? Oh SNAP the folder has VANISHED!11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Ann Otoole wrote: What if you have to make a change? Oh SNAP the folder has VANISHED!11 That's answered in the FAQ too:- "Once those items have appeared in your Marketplace inventory, for each item you will be able to create a new listing or associate it with an existing listing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Sassy Romano wrote: Ann Otoole wrote: What if you have to make a change? Oh SNAP the folder has VANISHED!11 That's answered in the FAQ too:- "Once those items have appeared in your Marketplace inventory, for each item you will be able to create a new listing or associate it with an existing listing." WOW Sassy its amazing how you are one of the rare Merchants that seem to be able to decipher what most other Merchants here cannot. I suspect is because you were a Closed Beta Tester and already know the answers and can map the truth to the cryptic FAQ that LL posted. PS... that is NOT answered in the FAQ like you just stated. How in your superior logic over most of us did you read how a Merchant would update an MP listing when the OUTBOX folder is EMPTY? No... the LL gobbly **bleep** FAQ has not clearly answered the folders Math and did not explain how a Merchant executes an upgrade of an existing item. EDIT POST... So Sassy use your knowledge of the closed beta and your ability to understand LL Geek Talk to provide us the exact step by step process that a Merchant like me would update a BOXED item that is already in MP. STEP by STEP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 When will LL make a presence in this thread and start answering the the questions we merchants have on DD instead of getting "educated guesses" from Merchants that think they know the answers from their interpretations of the cryptic / incomplete FAQ. We have to assume that any Merchants on here providing answers are just guessing since a couple ppl in this thread have already stated that Clode Beta Testing Merchants are still permanently legally gagged to speak to the rest of the Merchant community on the knowledge they have gained in the closed beta. Unless of course they are violating their contract with LL. LL - you promised to answer questions in the forums. WHERE ARE YOU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident CommerceTeam Linden Posted November 4, 2011 Resident Share Posted November 4, 2011 Thank you for all of the questions! We have tried to pull out the questions up to about 1pm SLT today and are posting them here with answers. We will review next week for additional questions. Q: Do I need to create a folder for everything I plan to list on the Marketplace, even if I am selling fully boxed items?A: Creating a folder is not necessary. If you are using the Second Life Viewer, and you drag an item into the Merchant Outbox, a folder will be created having the same name as the item. The newly created folder will contain the item. For example, an item named “Furry Cat” dragged into the Merchant Outbox will cause a folder called “Furry Cat” to be created. “Furry Cat” the item will be inside the folder.Q: How will folders work on the Marketplace?A: Each top-level folder in the Merchant Outbox will become an inventory item on the Marketplace, named according to the scheme described above. Merchants and customers will be able to view the full folder hierarchy on the Marketplace to determine if all items and folders have been delivered.Q: What are the capacity limits of the Merchant Outbox?A: Only the first 100 folders in the Merchant Outbox will be pushed to the Marketplace at a time. For example, the 1st through 100th folders would all be pushed, but the 101st and remaining would not be pushed until the next attempt. Example: For EACH folder in the Merchant Outbox, there can be up to 200 objects in total (regardless of whether there are sub-folders). For example, attempts to transfer these “Furry Cats” and “Furry Dogs” folders would both fail: Furry CatsCat 1 Cat 2 ... Cat 204 Furry Dogs Large DogsLarge Dog 1 … Large Dog 50 Small DogsSmall Dog 1 … Small Dog 151 For EACH folder in the Merchant Outbox, there can be up to 20 folders in total. These folders may be up to 4 folder levels deep in total, including the folder just under the Merchant Outbox. For example, “Furry Dogs\Large Dogs\Large Brown Dogs\Large Brown Short Haired Dogs” is an allowed folder depth. But “Furry Dogs\Large Dogs\Large Brown Dogs\Large Brown Short Haired Dogs\Large Brown Short Haired Blue Eyed Dogs” would be rejected. Each folder at ANY level in the hierarchy will be counted as a folder, including the top level “Furry Dogs” folder.Q: Do we have to use folders?A: No. It’s OK to keep products boxed up.Example: A texture Merchant would like to sell a bulk package of textures.With Magic Boxes, the Merchant would either (1) place all the textures into a box, then place that box into the Magic Box, or (2) sort the textures into folders, place the folders into a box, and then place the box into the Magic Box.With Direct Delivery, instead of placing the items from either scenario 1 into a Magic Box, they are placed into a folder. Instead of placing the folders from scenario 2 into a box, they are placed into a folder. The folder is then copied to the Merchant Outbox for pushing to the Marketplace.Q: What’s the migration process for moving my items from Magic Boxes to Direct Delivery listings?A: The process is not completed yet. Once a process is working in test, we will communicate the details. We are working on a method that will not require each listing to be edited to replace the Magic Box inventory item with a Direct Delivery inventory item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 So the other thread asking LL to take direct ownership and responsibility to answer the Merchants questions on Direct Delivery has been flooded with tons of questions mixed in with other Merchant's educated guesses as to how DD works. Strangely LL is the only ones that has yet to participate in these Q & A threads. So I am starting a new thread where Merchants can ask questions, and we will all wait for LL to answer these questions. Before I kick off this thread with my set of questions to LL, I will ask that other Merchants should not be trying to answer these questions since you are likely providing your educated guess and us Merchants deserve the 100% confirmed and true answer. If you are a Merchant with an answer then you are likely from the closed beta and you are violating your own GAG order you signed with LL. So... DEAR LL COMMERCE TEAM, please answer: Please explain - possibly with a diagram or hierarchical chart of some nature how this folder in folder model math works for MP listings? Your FAQ on this limit for unboxed objects within a listing in MP is confusing. If a Merchant (most of us initially) plans to only continue to sell BOXED MP items, do they need to create a FOLDER in the outbox for each boxed item? i.e. 100 boxed MP selling items = 100 MP folders to be created? OR can I place all my magibox items into the root of the Outbox folder and get it uploaded into MP? If LL is forcing MP Merchants to create a folder in the outbox for every Boxed selling item, how many can they create in the Outbox folder before they need to upload to MP? i.e. can I create an oubox with 100 folders with Boxed items or am I limited to 20 at a time? What is the actual trigger that initiates the Outbox "upload to MP & empty outbox" process? Is it a new Synch button on my marketplace management screens? Is it timed? Why did LL decide to delete the master Outbox in the Merchant's inventory? If I have 100 MP selling boxed items and it needs 100 folders in the outbox to get the content up to MP, why not leave the folders in the outbox so we can simply update one of the boxed items and start the synch again in the future? Please provide a step-by-step process of how a Merchant would take a boxed item from my magicbox and get it 100% working on the DD delivery. List each step (dont assume we know some of your terminology). How does a Merchant subsequently update an MP product that has already been initially been uploaded? i.e. if I have SCULPTYPACK1 in MP and a month later I want to replace that pack with a new SCULPTYPACK1, what would me steps be? Is it critical that the folder names used to get content up to MP use exact names as the listing? What happens in the future if I create a new folder in the empty Outbox folder with the same name and the if the folder is empty? Will nothing happen or will the empty folder delete all the content of a folder in MP with the same name? If some of my listings in the new year deliver product via DD and others via Magicbox, will the buyers be notified and tell them the method of delivery that was used? How does a Merchant delete an MP item of content? Will there be any new / improved sales delivery notification / tracking / reporting as the DD performs its delivery? How does a Merchant issue a re-delivery if a Customer still says they didnt receive their product or for whatever reason? Other Merchants that are as dumb as I am and didnt understand the FAQ's or that have other questions related to DD, please pose a question. LL - we wait for you to be the one that posts here to answer these questions... dont shurk your responsibilities to other Merchants that are only guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Toysoldier Thor wrote: WOW Sassy its amazing how you are one of the rare Merchants that seem to be able to decipher what most other Merchants here cannot. I suspect is because you were a Closed Beta Tester and already know the answers and can map the truth to the cryptic FAQ that LL posted. PS... that is NOT answered in the FAQ like you just stated. How in your superior logic over most of us did you read how a Merchant would update an MP listing when the OUTBOX folder is EMPTY? It's a rare gift I know and i'm just trying to help but to answer your question, using logic, one can infer that the process would be to first get the item from Outbox to MP DD system. That is described in the FAQ, you place it there and do something to upload it. Once it's uploaded you follow the FAQ where it says:- "Once those items have appeared in your Marketplace inventory, for each item you will be able to create a new listing or associate it with an existing listing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arwen Serpente Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Thank you CTL (Commerce Team Linden) for responding with more info. The information about folder creation for boxed items (i.e., dragging boxed item to Outbox and a folder is created automatically) is great news, as is the prospect of low maintenance migration of listings. The folder hierarchy part (including the example with the cats and dogs) is still a bit difficult to wrap my head around (it makes using exisiting boxed items sound simpler), but perhaps for those who are interested in the folder option it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 CommerceTeam Linden wrote: [..] Q: Do I need to create a folder for everything I plan to list on the Marketplace, even if I am selling fully boxed items? A: Creating a folder is not necessary. If you are using the Second Life Viewer, and you drag an item into the Merchant Outbox, a folder will be created having the same name as the item. The newly created folder will contain the item. For example, an item named “Furry Cat” dragged into the Merchant Outbox will cause a folder called “Furry Cat” to be created. “Furry Cat” the item will be inside the folder. Based on the above, I will infer that the "Inventory Name" that now refers to the object name of the item delivered, will under DD be derived by the name of the top-level Folder. (In your example above, the "Furry Cat" folder would be the top-level folder.) That makes good sense and I'm glad to hear it. However ... When I update an item and want to update it on SLM, I understand that I will drag it to the Merchant Outbox folder and drop it in, whereupon a new folder will be created for it and the item placed within. I will then launch the "Upload" process (however that works) and the new updated item will be copied up to SLM and removed from my Merchant Outbox folder. The question is: Will the item just uploaded automatically replace the same named item such that I will NOT have to update the Listing? Or must I visit the Listing and edit it in some fashion before the new updated item is delivered instead of the old outdated item? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WADE1 Jya Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 My only question would be how many days (or weeks... or months) of business will be lost during what will surely be a messy, grinding & painful transition process to arrive at this direct delivery... and how many design cycles will we lose to the many hours that must be spent reconfiguring all our listings yet again (I personally have 300+ to deal with). With respect, this is surely a better system we are moving onto, but I predict getting there will not be any fun at all :matte-motes-stress: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Not everyone here is a Tech Geek. Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to create things and market them properly and conduct business here, without having to have a Computer Programming degree, or a real life job in Tech. In other businesses, we use different phrases, different styles, different approaches. That does not equate to being stupid by asking questions. I've got a degree in Psychology. We could talk about agendas all day long. The explanations are written by tech geeks. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Susanto Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 It's my personal impression at this point that the explanation is about as clear as it probably can be without seeing the system actually in operation. My experience tells me to expect that something in the explanation will be incorrect, but, honestly, I can't yet see what it would be (yet). I would, nonetheless, like an explicit confirmation of what the real limit of listed items per user account will be. Also, what if I prefer to just keep usig magic box technology? Would LL have any reason to object to that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Pinion Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Toysoldier Thor wrote: The new DD could have used these MagicBoxes (or even a new DD version of this Magicbox) that is rezzed inworld and used it as the "OUTBOX" source that would be uploaded into the MP DD system. Couldn't you just think of this folder as a "magic box"? I'm sure you must keep master copies of your items in your inventory and you don't rely on the box to keep them, right? When an external object is an intermediary in the delivery process, you get the problems we have now. "Direct" delivery means just that: from one inventory directly to another. Another advantage of using a folder instead of an external object is that merchants without land can sell without having to find a place to park a box. I admit it will be the end of the rent-a-box-space business, but so it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Pinion Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Josh Susanto wrote: I would, nonetheless, like an explicit confirmation of what the real limit of listed items per user account will be. Also, what if I prefer to just keep usig magic box technology? I think LL's response here was pretty good, it clarified a lot for me. There is no limit to the number of items you may sell. Each item you sell can have up to 200 objects in its folder. You can divide those into subfolders if you want, but regardless of subfolders, no more than 200 objects per listing. Any of those objects can be a box of a zillion other objects, so in reality there is no limit. If you do want to use subfolders, no more than 20 subfolders per item listing. If you want to use sub-sub folders, you can't nest them more than 4 levels deep. Regardless of how many nestings, subfolders, etc. you use, the total number of folders all together cannot exceed 20. That's per listing. There is no limit to the number of items you may list in the marketplace. I'm very pleased about the automatic folder creation for already-boxed items. That means all I have to do is drag my master copies into the out box and I'm done -- especially if LL can finish up the automatic marketplace linking. That'd be a nice touch. Then I wouldn't even have to change my existing listings, they'd just connect up automagically. As for magic boxes, the FAQ says you can continue to use them and there is no cutoff deadline. In fact, the beta grid has a place to pick up a magic box customized for the beta test so that you can see how they work alongside the new system. I really need to find some time to go and test it. I'm actually kind of jazzed about this. The delivery problems people have had should be a thing of the past when this is done. One thing I do depend on is ANS. The FAQ says there will be a similar substitute. I'd like to see that in testing too, because I rely on it so much. I may have to keep my magic box around for my one product that needs ANS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Josh Susanto wrote: >There is no 4000 item limit Josh Zanara, do you see how easy that was? I gave you the answer, Josh, in the following line of my post that you decided to delete when quoting, LOL. Really... And it had already been explained previously as well (by ?Darrius), and has several times since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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