the Viewer wars

[Kaiser Bogomil]

I was recently booted from a sim because of my viewer ( yeah I'm a technologist. ).  Yes I have done quite a bit to go beyond the normal SL viewer & now & I am getting "no thanks" for my efforts.   Both by the Lindens and "Phoenix" zealots.

Ya know ... really this is such a sad state of technology where ppl use position rather than argument or a contest only to suppress a challenge, innovation and productivity.  As long as this happens we shall just burn rubber.  

[Tiffy Vella]

May we ask what viewer?

[Six Igaly]

I can answer this for you. Almost sure it is the Moreland Grove viewer:

http://www.primphilia.com/store/MorelandGrove.html

[Tiffy Vella]

Ah thanks, Six- (runs off to read......oooh weirdly interesting.......ok I have to read this a few times to get it, when I don't have people poking me for food....I'm sure by the time I come back here tomorrow there'll be more posts explaining everything.....runs off to kitchen...)

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Interesting concept but I am not sure what you mean in that write up about "the Moreland Farms Server".  Do you mean the server for the sim or a server you yourself have, run and maintain?

If the answer is the sim server, I have a feeling that LL's reason about the viewer not being acceptable because SL is a "shared experience" means that LL would not be able to share the users money and charge for 10K slim prims via tiers.

If the answer is your own server, I am not sure what they mean by that.  If guests to your unit can see the scenery, even though other's outside the unit can't, what is the difference between that and a private sim whose owner limits access to selected people?

 

[Arkady Arkright]

I take it your viewer is on the LL approved list of TPV's ?

 

Edit: And that the source is available for others to check and compile for themselves ?

[GothGirl Demonia]

@OP

First, Which viewer were you using, and why did the person kick you from the Region/Estate, or Land.

This could be due to a number of reasons, some RP sims for example might not want people running third party viewers on them such as Phoenix, or Imprudence.

Second, If a person did not kick you, then chances are you may be (Globally Banned by a system called)  (CDS) Client Detection System, and this system basically uses a simple LSL method to obtain a few features about what viewer you are using through media more than likely if you ever enabled it, and if for any reason you  get Flagged as a known Copybot, or griefer you are there for life, and good luck getting off that list of griefers.

As for the general Viewer Wars, I have found that if you even talk about technology in SL, know a bit about scripting, or know about the Viewer Wars in general for any reason someone comes your way and griefs you they automatically accuse you of being a griefer, I have had this happen to me big times recently, and I have been griefed by some of these systems, my friends who used Emerald for example got banned mistaken for another griefer client they never had their names removed.

Now the fact of people getting kicked off a region, or Land for being on a certain viewer is just really messed up like any open sourced viewer that is out there with its source code can be turned into a griefer viewer by someone who knows what they are doing, so if they kicked you for this reason without any evidence, well by all means they have the right to kick, or ban from their land without reason, but honestly in my opinion it isn't right.

My policy on such is I honestly don't care what viewer a person is on, Just don't abuse it, Dont steal stuff, and it is up to Linden Lab to black list the viewer if it is one of those types of viewers, because honestly if any one person in SL were to run such a detection system such as CDS, it is actually just a line of text, and a simple LSL script that can obtain a persons viewer information, just like Red Zone in some ways, so detection through these systems, or use of these systems to detect alts, or ban people through massive ban networks I consider them a form of griefing and harassment, on top of that they can't back up their accusations on what viewer a person was really using, unless they admit to it, and of course information can easily be fake because someone dislikes someone this goes for any ban network system.

While I understand that Theft is a problem, and there needs to be a solution to such I do not believe that this is that solution at first I did at one point for a very short time, but after finally looking at how the systems work, being abused myself by the system and people who control it, I know that these systems cant be trusted and do nothing other than create a public panic as it stops people from going to Clubs they once trusted because they don't want to turn on media, people who shop are often afraid to go to stores, and hey the problem is until LL removes such systems from SL even if very few use it it creates a panic to where people feel they are being stalked, harassed, defamed, griefed, or don't trust spending money in SL.

I mean if you were a new user to SL, and could easily be griefed, harassed, or defamed by such systems, or groups of people would you honestly want to put your RL money into SL?

I have seen Linden Lab make improvements in SL, and I am waiting for LL to make a policy against such ban network systems, as well as improvements to help prevent griefing, I am sure this is on their to do list, and myself I have very little problems dealing with griefers on my own, my only problem is defame ban networks, and people that believe griefers over myself, and then others who trust them so they believe what they say too, but I guess that is the bad thing about a social game right?

I mean another true fact, and don't get me wrong, I have seen griefers with accounts way over 1.8k days old, and even some of them with payment information on file, so avatar age in SL doesn't always matter when it comes to the Viewer Wars, or Griefing.

[Caitlin Tobias]

There are Viewer Wars?
geez, I always miss all the fun!

 

[Qie Niangao]

I very much doubt that the linked site licensed the music in that Flash video -- there don't seem to be any music credits at all.  And that makes me wonder if the whole point of the exercise is to provide a way to share illicit copies of content outside the ability of the Lab to enforce DMCA.

It's not at all clear that the reported ban was generated through any networked ban system (which, I agree, are more likely to be abused than to be valid, and have become universally more subject to abuse since BanLink was abandoned).  

Also, how is it known that the ban is in fact viewer-specific?  (That's assuming there's a real complaint here at all, and it's not all just veiled spam.)

[Void Singer]

at a guess, OP was booted from the region for using a custom viewer that wasn't recognized by the person doing the booting as one of the the well known "approved" viewers.... whether it's that persons policy to only allow approved viewers, or they thought it might be a hack viewer is anyone's guess, but likely has nothing to do with any specific viewer

@OP
considering the rollout of LL's "land privacy" settings, you should probably resubmit. Their original reason for denial that you claimed, is no longer valid as far as I can see. And I say this as someone that has been supremely pleased with phoenix, so you may want to adjust your "who's out to get me" lenses.

 

ETA @Qie
The ad spam possibility occured to me, since it was a complaint of mine in the past (as was unlicensed content), but if so, it's so muted compared to the past that I ignored it. the point about not knowing the actual reason for the ban is also salient... heavens knows we get plenty of people with persecution complexes.

[Qwalyphi Korpov]

The resident who provided the previous content, if any, has replaced it with this generic statement.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

Looks like 'stealth spam' with a side of self pity and some whine.

---

they would probably get farther if they just told us about the viewer hehehe

because they are not saying anything about what happened at all..

may as well leave some kind of information about one or the other hehehe

[Marigold Devin]

You don't say much, but the mardy attitude which you use to say it doesn't make me want to lend a sympathetic ear to you.

If you believe you have something valuable to offer LL, you're going to have to find a more convincing way of putting it across, instead of having a pointless whine on these forums, where you are more likely to become the target of cupcakes and popcorn (on a good day).

And what's with the personal jibe at the "Phoenix" "zealots". Why is "Phoenix" in inverted commas? - are you using Phoenix as a blanket term for all the approved Third Party Viewers created, of which you are so eaten up with jealousy you were urged to begin this thread?

"Ya know ... really this is such a sad state of technology where ppl use position rather than argument or a contest only to suppress a challenge, innovation and productivity.  As long as this happens we shall just burn rubber.  "

I see a lot more happening than Second Life/the residents and developers of just burning rubber.  Tons of improvements have been made since I joined up in 2007, and continue to be made, and I'm grateful to all for providing me with exactly what I require.

 

*****

 

Alternative response:

Do you ever watch the innovations that pass through such shows as "Dragon's Den"? You might want to use your technological talents on a different virtual reality platform where the creators/developers/owners are more likely to appreciate your efforts.

I wish you luck in your endeavours.

 

 

[Ceka Cianci]

why does everyone think burnin rubber is so bad Oo hehehehehe

i burn lots of it..any chance i get..

[Void Singer]

oh that comment was probably aimed at me, since I slammed his marketing several months back.... even though I have no position, and actually said the concept was interesting and novel.

[Marigold Devin]

Aha, thanks Void.



[Deej Kasshiki]

Came expecting the normal LL vs. TPV donnybrook and am leaving disappointed. Stealth marketing and PR attempt detected... :matte-motes-evil:

[Hitomi Tiponi]

In Kaiser's previous post - http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Lindens-Please-stop-deleting-my-changes-harsh-language-censored/m-p/963217 - he accused a Linden of moving his stuff.

---

Kaiser Bogomil wrote:

...

someone did this - not me ... (I suspect a Linden - I doubt a hacker .. my password is longer than 8 characters mixed case alpha-numeric characters)... I fixed it by placing it on the ground.  The next day it was up in the air again.  And it had been on the ground for months.

---

 

 

[Tiffy Vella]

Hmm....I thought we'd have heard something from the OP re what this is all about. Not sure what all of that was in aid of, unless you guys are right and it was sneaky spammage.

Not fair to come in, flounce about as if are repressed victim, then poof leaving us with nothing to go on with.

 

[Genesis Montagne]

I took the time to do some research about your viewer Kaiser (for those of you who immediately claimed he was a spammer, I recommend you take a moment to Google if you are interested) amazing work and what a fabulous idea! I was away from SL when it was first being brought to peoples attention. I know that you must be incredibly frustrated by the hurdles and roadblocks which have been put in your way as you seek acceptance of your project. Your attempt to submit your viewer for listing on the TPV list was obviously railroaded due to the impact it would have on LL as their entire land pricing is based on prim usage. You really should have known though, any addition to SL that would result in LL being unable to make $$ or, that would reduce our dependence on land prim counts will be fought, denied and blocked if at all possible. If your viewer were to catch on, it would be a very big problem for a company that has based so much of its profitability on that formula.

That being said, you did yourself a disservice by posting a knee-jerk response to the actions of an obviously uneducated sim owner/viewer zealot (whichever they may be) and missed a valuable opportunity to educate people about your invention. For the individual who banned you, shame on them...but really? Not worth getting upset over' sweat it, you don't need them. 

To those who are "supremely pleased by phoenix", speaking from personal experience there are many, MANY out there who use it and other viewers and do in fact believe it is their duty to police SL and harass/coerce/annoy others who use alternate means to access this world.  Being a bit of a geek myself, I usually have several viewers installed for testing (although I have limited most use these days to V3 clients only) and regularly have to tell people to worry about their own viewer choice rather than mine and they are usually phoenix users, why? I do not know, but its annoying....so....his "who's out to get me lenses" may very well be adjusted perfectly.

Kaiser, if you've managed to shake off the initial annoyance that caused you to post in the first place, come back to the forums and explain the frustration rather than allow the usual sarcastic responses that permeate these forums go unanswered. But, some advise? Don't take them personally, not worth it.

A quick bit of info for those interested (as I said, I did a bit of Googling about the Moreland viewer) :

1. No the viewer is not on the TPV, it was submitted, follows their policies but was denied because of the slim prim technology. 

2. Listing on the TPV Directory is not a requirement. If I wanted to download LL source and create my own viewer for my use or my friends use, that is completely fine to do. Not being listed on this directory is not an acceptable reason for banning. 

3. From varous videos, interviews and articles I've read, the OP has attempted to provide access to his technology, going so far as to enter a round table discussion with several well known individuals in second life, including members of the Phoenix development team to gain input on how to move forward with his discovery. 

4. Really though, Kaiser....you should be the one explaining all of this not me!

[Qwalyphi Korpov]

The resident who provided the previous content, if any, has replaced it with this generic statement.

[Void Singer]

well since you quoted me I'll respond to that bit. I can't speak for the vocal minority of (psuedo) religious users; Honestly, I wouldn't want to. But generalizing what a few ignorant people do, out to all people that share something in common with them (whether it's software choice, political affiliation, religion, race, etc) is equally ignorant.

I also run multiple viewers, most frequently Cool, Phoenix, and V3, along with whatever I happen to be checking out, yet I have NEVER run into anyone inworld that even suggested that I change viewers, let alone insulted my choice or banned me for it. In fact, the only conversation I've ever had about viewer choice inworld is along the lines of "hey what do you use / how good is it". That doesn't mean those other people don't exist, we hear enough about them, and even see a few on the forums.

on top of that, as you pointed out, the phoenix devs (who are perforce phoenix users) were willing to offer suggestions and help, which is contrary to the characterization.

re: LL not wanting to devalue land.
that's kinda silly as an assertion, since his idea would increase the value of small parcels, and also increase the exposure of large parcels, since scenery that you can't interact with gets boring, but once people have a taste for larger, they'll want more.

re: TPV listing & Banning
All reasons that do not violate ToS are valid. They may be ignorant or foolish, but that's the land owners prerogative. for all we know OP could have been banned for anything from promoting his viewer, to wearing the color green (no really, I've seen someone banned for that). it's all valid.

final thought:
I don't see OP''s development as the problem, though I do share concerns about cohesiveness of the SL world (which I think LL's new "land privacy" runs contrary to) and the external hosting (and therefore exclusion) of possibly stolen content, as well as a single source viewer cross connecting multiple basic content services. What I do see as a problem are OP's "ready, fire, aim" practices, and attitude of entitlement (hint: just because you create something that's free does not mean everyone should thank you for it or even want it.) I am not surprised phoenix devs declined to include the code, if for no other reason than the code was already turned down by LL for TPV Listing inclusion. Doing so would jeopardize their own inclusion in the listing, and I'm sure they have no desire for the drama that would ensue from such an event.

[Genesis Montagne]

---

Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

---

---

Genesis Montagne wrote:

2. Listing on the TPV Directory is not a requirement. If I wanted to download LL source and create my own viewer for my use or my friends use, that is completely fine to do. Not being listed on this directory is not an acceptable reason for banning. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Really it's completely fine to ban with or without a reason.  One persons acceptable is another persons not acceptable.

 

---

 

---

The fact that we have the ability to ban without reason does not mean that it is acceptable to do so. By that logic the fact that it is possible for one to grief, steal, harm or otherwise disrupt others is equally as acceptable to do at will. Just because something isn't mentioned in a TOS does not mean that the practice is ethically acceptable. Those who would look to a TOS as a holy grail instead of realizing that it is merely a guideline put in place to promote ethical treatment of eachother in this virtual world are missing the point. Not every scenario is or could be outlined in it and there will always be individuals out there who will read between the lines and find joy in "technically doing no wrong."  

We are raised from children to recognize and choose between right and wrong, and whether we choose to denounce such behavior is a personal choice. I always remain hopeful that people would keep an open mind, or at least investigate prior to making blanket judgements but do realize that many do not. I still feel comfortable with my statement and respect and appreciate your response. Gray areas exist (thankfully) in a free thinking society so there will never be complete agreement on any topic.

 

[Genesis Montagne]

---

Void Singer wrote:

"well since you quoted me I'll respond to that bit. I can't speak for the vocal minority of (psuedo) religious users; Honestly, I wouldn't want to. But generalizing what a few ignorant people do, out to all people that share something in common with them (whether it's software choice, political affiliation, religion, race, etc) is equally ignorant."

~ I'm unsure what you are suggesting here as I made no generalizations at all, I merely pointed out that based on my experience there are a number of people who do exactly as I stated in my initial message which and do "harass/coerce/annoy others who use alternate means to access this world." Pointing out ones personal experience does not a generalization make. I re-read the OP comment as well, I didn't see a generalization of all Phoenix / LL users either but perhaps I missed something? I'm unsure if the last statement was directed to me or the OP but...I am many, many things I assure you but ignorant is not one of them.

"I also run multiple viewers, most frequently Cool, Phoenix, and V3, along with whatever I happen to be checking out, yet I have NEVER run into anyone inworld that even suggested that I change viewers, let alone insulted my choice or banned me for it. In fact, the only conversation I've ever had about viewer choice inworld is along the lines of "hey what do you use / how good is it".

~ I'm happy that you haven't run into these individuals, I hear from them regularly and simply blow it off or use it as an opportunity to teach. I usually hear most from them because I actually rather enjoy the new LL viewer and have transitioned completely (I usually download the Snowstorm Project Development viewers a few times a week for testing). When asked what I use the usual response from Phoenix users is "I hate viewer 2, why would you want to use that? so on and so on."

 

"That doesn't mean those other people don't exist, we hear enough about them, and even see a few on the forums."

~ Exactly my, and possibly the OP's point. 

"on top of that, as you pointed out, the phoenix devs (who are perforce phoenix users) were willing to offer suggestions and help, which is contrary to the characterization."

~Actually, I didn't point that out. I simply stated that he participated in a roundtable discussion about his invention. I didn't say that they offered much in the way of help. My overall opinion of the interviews I saw was a lukewarm reception at best. Why? My belief is that it annoyed them that it wasn't something they thought of themselves. Of course I could be wrong here

The Phoenix Project and its predecessor the Emerald Viewer regularly introduced viewer specific code that other viewers could not see and in general were praised for their invovation / efforts to push LL to improve on their viewer. And I'm thankful for the work they did, I just don't believe they should be the only project recognized for advancing viewer technology. Much of what has been done was first realized by Henry's Cool SL/VL Viewer but his work is rarely mentioned. 

"re: LL not wanting to devalue land.

that's kinda silly as an assertion, since his idea would increase the value of small parcels, and also increase the exposure of large parcels, since scenery that you can't interact with gets boring, but once people have a taste for larger, they'll want more."

~ This is far from silly. Respectfully, I would say that your view of this is a bit naive. The increase in value for small parcels of land would likely not cover the loss in income from those who might lower their land holdings if this were to become wildly popular. While I agree that inaccessible land gest boring over time and it may likely lead to larger land purchases over time the all mighty L$ means a great deal to residentsl. Ultimately a parcel owner who today would have a 1/4 SIM might get by with a 4096 instead.  LL will never take this risk, period, they are too reliant on land.

re: TPV listing & Banning

All reasons that do not violate ToS are valid. They may be ignorant or foolish, but that's the land owners prerogative. for all we know OP could have been banned for anything from promoting his viewer, to wearing the color green (no really, I've seen someone banned for that). it's all valid.

~ I posted a reply just above this one on this very topic. While yes, technically it does not violate TOS it is extremely ignorant and foolish and should be discouraged. In the end we all know there are people out there who behave this way and there always will be. And in this perhaps I am a bit naive, but I believe that people can make a difference in life. I believe that if we see others treated wrongly we have a responsibility to speak out about it instead of accepting it as "valid."

"final thought:

I don't see OP''s development as the problem, though I do share concerns about cohesiveness of the SL world (which I think LL's new "land privacy" runs contrary to) and the external hosting (and therefore exclusion) of possibly stolen content, as well as a single source viewer cross connecting multiple basic content services. What I do see as a problem are OP's "ready, fire, aim" practices, and attitude of entitlement (hint: just because you create something that's free does not mean everyone should thank you for it or even want it.) I am not surprised phoenix devs declined to include the code, if for no other reason than the code was already turned down by LL for TPV Listing inclusion. Doing so would jeopardize their own inclusion in the listing, and I'm sure they have no desire for the drama that would ensue from such an event."

~I don't believe he offered the code to other viewers but did express a willingness to do so at the roundtable. At that point in time he had not been declined but had submitted for acceptance on the TPV list. As I said, the reception was lukewarm at best. I agree 100% that he should resubmit for approval and hope he does so, its a very interesting discovery.

Thank you for your comments!

 

---

 

[Marigold Devin]

---

Genesis Montagne wrote:

---

Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

---

---

Genesis Montagne wrote:

2. Listing on the TPV Directory is not a requirement. If I wanted to download LL source and create my own viewer for my use or my friends use, that is completely fine to do. Not being listed on this directory is not an acceptable reason for banning. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Really it's completely fine to ban with or without a reason.  One persons acceptable is another persons not acceptable.

 

---

 

---

The fact that we have the ability to ban without reason does not mean that it is acceptable to do so. By that logic the fact that it is possible for one to grief, steal, harm or otherwise disrupt others is equally as acceptable to do at will. Just because something isn't mentioned in a TOS does not mean that the practice is ethically acceptable. Those who would look to a TOS as a holy grail instead of realizing that it is merely a guideline put in place to promote ethical treatment of eachother in this virtual world are missing the point. Not every scenario is or could be outlined in it and there will always be individuals out there who will read between the lines and find joy in "technically doing no wrong."  

We are raised from children to recognize and choose between right and wrong, and whether we choose to denounce such behavior is a personal choice. I always remain hopeful that people would keep an open mind, or at least investigate prior to making blanket judgements but do realize that many do not. I still feel comfortable with my statement and respect and appreciate your response. Gray areas exist (thankfully) in a free thinking society so there will never be complete agreement on any topic.

 

---

It's not acceptable that the man in front of me on the bus picks his nose either, but neither is it against RL TOS. The man may well have been brought up to know picking his nose in a public place is not acceptable, but he has the right to do it if he wants, so he does it, perhaps even knowing it is turning the stomach of those sitting behind him. 

But that's real life, and although Second Life is "ruled" by real life values - moral or otherwise - I would personally totalyly agree with Qwaliphi's statement "...  One persons acceptable is another persons not acceptable."  Anyone can ban whoever they want from their land. That is their right and choice.  It is our right and choice whether to be butthurt by such action.