glTF Roadmap?

[Rondure]

I stopped paying close attention to the "what's next" side of SL for a while, and now trying to play catch up.  

If I understand correctly, we're currently here:  SL has implemented PBR, requiring creators to use reflection probes and learn about environment lighting.  

Looking forward, I hear about a push towards implementing other glTF features.  Something about animations and Blender scene imports?

What does glTF have to do with animations?  Do they mean texture/material animations or an overhaul of how objects/animesh/avatars are moved and manipulated?

I guess Blender scene imports means what it says, that you could just import an entire scene from blender (lighting and all, maybe?) rather than individual objects?  Or am I wrong there?  

Any other major updates in progress besides puppeteering, mobile, and the scripting changes?

Thanks, just trying to get an overview and plan my next steps.

 

[Extrude Ragu]

glTF is a 3d format like .dae, although it more modern and standardized and supports a lot more features.

LL intends to support the full spec, all of the 'musts' of the spec which will give us a lot of new features. https://registry.khronos.org/glTF/specs/2.0/glTF-2.0.html#gltf-basics

Animations - You'll be able to make 3d objects in blender with custom armatures (in glTF speak these are nodes) and embed animations in the objects. These animations can also include scale atribute, which SL's animation system currently doesn't have.

A scene is a collection of one or more objects in glTF. You don't have to export your entire blender scene, you can just export the object(s) you want (It is possible to export the entire blender scene though).

[Janet Voxel]

Hopefully, puppeteering isn’t off the table now that we got to see it in action in inZoi. 

[Porky Gorky]

4 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

A scene is a collection of one or more objects in glTF. You don't have to export your entire blender scene, you can just export the object(s) you want (It is possible to export the entire blender scene though).

Is it known what the size limitations will be? Could we import a full region sized scene for example?

[Extrude Ragu]

4 minutes ago, Porky Gorky said:

Is it known what the size limitations will be? Could we import a full region sized scene for example?

as far as i'm aware any limits are current TBD

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

Hopefully, puppeteering isn’t off the table now that we got to see it in action in inZoi. 

I see this game as not just competition for The Sims, but for 2nd life as well.

[Cynite00]

14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I see this game as not just competition for The Sims, but for 2nd life as well.

To clarify, to even compete at anything, you actually have to be in play. SL isn't even on the map in the grand scheme of things, and therefore has no competition, and can't compete with anyone.

[Luna Bliss]

16 minutes ago, Cynite00 said:

30 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I see this game as not just competition for The Sims, but for 2nd life as well.

To clarify, to even compete at anything, you actually have to be in play. SL isn't even on the map in the grand scheme of things, and therefore has no competition, and can't compete with anyone.

What I mean by seeing it as competition is that I can very well see, with InZoi, residents (not creators necessarily) preferring it over SL.

[Cynite00]

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

What I mean by seeing it as competition is that I can very well see, with InZoi, residents (not creators necessarily) preferring it over SL.

Imagine if SL had that kind of character creation and at that level of quality. Character creation is the entry point and most important feature for virtual worlds, RPG games and has ALWAYS been a point of contention for gamers. The Senra avatars are so uncanny valley and ugly, SL is LOSING customers just by providing them. It was the same as their other project, Sansar. The avatars were ugly and even the default suggestions were even scary and uncanny valley as well. I would even go so far as to say, what will draw more users to SL that could probably be measurable (and even documented by YouTubers) would be their avatar creation screen. I know I'd be happier with such an interface and quality.

Who cares about PBR and shiny things when the intro avatars are FUGLY.

I'm also an advocate of having a quality standard avatar, so that all of us can make clothing ,accessories and w/e for them - without having to beg for kits or 'be friends' with the 'top creators' bodies. I'm all for competition and letting the best designs and innovation win - not taking away tools from people so there is no competition.

Sansar and its users were fortunate as they had secured a deal with CLOE to provide the ability to make and upload clothing that could be simmed on the avatars - not just the standard but ANY avatar given enough effort. This allowed so many more creators to participate, got CLOE more MD sales, and everyone wins with so much choice.

For those who made rigged clothing items, they at least had a standardized avatar to rig for, that gave many other non-MD sim clothing options. Standard sizing is important.

LL is missing the ball on so many things, and are pigheaded. On a social platform that is mostly AVATAR BASED, one would think they'd be flexing their muscles at the front door starting with an amazing avatar.

Then.. then.. yes only then, could anyone even consider that LL is competing with anyone.. Right now they're just laughed at.

 

Picture: INZOI can even 'cartoonize' their avatars, to take the 'realism' edge off of them, to fit sims and worlds like GTA4 like - would be a good feature for SL avatars to do the same thing.

Edited September 6 by Cynite00

[WeFlossDaily]

9 hours ago, Rondure said:

I stopped paying close attention to the "what's next" side of SL for a while, and now trying to play catch up.  

If I understand correctly, we're currently here:  SL has implemented PBR, requiring creators to use reflection probes and learn about environment lighting.  

Looking forward, I hear about a push towards implementing other glTF features.  Something about animations and Blender scene imports?

What does glTF have to do with animations?  Do they mean texture/material animations or an overhaul of how objects/animesh/avatars are moved and manipulated?

I guess Blender scene imports means what it says, that you could just import an entire scene from blender (lighting and all, maybe?) rather than individual objects?  Or am I wrong there?  

Any other major updates in progress besides puppeteering, mobile, and the scripting changes?

Thanks, just trying to get an overview and plan my next steps.

Hopefully, glTF will help creators make more optimized stuff, allowing us to all view it as an improvement. I'm trying to be optimistic.

As I understand it, the puppet thing was quietly abandoned for a variety of reasons. I'm fine with it either way.

I still don't understand why anybody would want to play SL on their phone, but it doesn't hurt me, so whatev.

I'm not looking forward to some of the scripting changing. I believe we are getting some kind of version of LUAu 5.3 after LL has taken it apart and put it back together igen. My two main complaints about it are: 1.) I think LUA is ugly to look at. And: 2.) The LSL wiki might be dated and incomplete in places, but it provides enough explanations and examples for many of us to gradually learn from it and improve our scripting skills. Mostly, I am worried that there will not be enough resources and information directly related to SL for us to learn from. I'm willing to try to learn, though.

Just a personal observation: Some of the PBR viewers are still dumpster fires. Probably me and many others who struggle with PBR are still safe for awhile, mabey even years considering that there appears to be no defined standards on how to use PBR in combination with EEPs to achieve consistent results.

We are getting some kind of voice update. I'm calling it PBR Voice. Not interested. And don't care.

Currently, I think 2k textures are the biggest threat to performance for everybody. If they become widely adopted, a lot of ppl are going to start experiencing texture thrashing who normally wouldn't and won't be happy about it. I believe any TPV that doesn't already have options in place to limit the max texture resolution needs to make sure they implement such options sooner rather then later. I know Cool VL can, and I think Firestorm can, I don't know about Alchemy, Catznip, or Kristen's. Radegast operates for the most part on the idea of 0 FPS so I guess that viewer doesn't count.

1 hour ago, Cynite00 said:

Picture: INZOI can even 'cartoonize' their avatars, to take the 'realism' edge off of them, to fit sims and worlds like GTA4 like - would be a good feature for SL avatars to do the same thing.

That's pretty cool. I wonder if reshaders could be made so that SL looked more like a cartoon. But also could they be made in a way that achieved that and mabey reduced the cost of rendering on our systems. That would be even better. Personally, I want to render in ASCII or rotoscope. But I'm weird.

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

Hopefully, puppeteering isn’t off the table now that we got to see it in action in inZoi. 

I've seen some videos for inZoi (thanks @Ayashe Ninetails!).

The lighting is impressive as hell. The avatars and animations are not particularly an improvement over SL, from what I saw, although maybe there is more room for improvement there. It's great that you can scan and import mesh items yourself, but the current library is hugely limited to Swedish Modern.

But there are two issues: the first is that it's not multiplayer.

And the second is that the computer specs required to play it would make a lot of gaming computers look like toasters. If PBR has caused issues, the introduction of this level of graphic quality would depopulate SL like a nuclear event.

It's a nicer looking version of the Sims.

Edited September 6 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Coffee Pancake]

8 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

Hopefully, puppeteering isn’t off the table now that we got to see it in action in inZoi. 

As demoed .. yes. Dead. Long dead and not even useful.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Couple thangs...

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I've seen some videos for inZoi (thanks @Ayashe Ninetails!).

Welcome!

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The lighting is impressive as hell. The avatars and animations are not particularly an improvement over SL, from what I saw, although maybe there is more room for improvement there.

I actually didn't send you any character customization videos or anything on the face capture features. The customization system is NICE. The face anims are cursed, but that's just me, lol. Maybe they'll clean that up at a later date. I imagine SL's puppetry would've looked equally as cursed on release, too. It's a tough thing to get right.

 

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But there are two issues: the first is that it's not multiplayer.

A multiplayer mode is supposedly on the roadmap after release. Like all games, the players are demanding it. What it'll look like is anyone's guess (likely smaller-scale).

 

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And the second is that the computer specs required to play it would make a lot of gaming computers look like toasters.

It's got high requirements (a 3070 is listed as the recommended, at least at the moment), but that's to be expected. It's Unreal 5. Games like this (and the Sims) drive a lot of Twitch and YouTube engagement, though, and popular content creators are usually on the best available hardware at any given time (sometimes sponsored by the companies to push it), so I'm sure at least some will be nudged to upgrade along the way.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I actually didn't send you any character customization videos or anything on the face capture features. The customization system is NICE. The face anims are cursed, but that's just me, lol. Maybe they'll clean that up at a later date. I imagine SL's puppetry would've looked equally as cursed on release, too. It's a tough thing to get right.

Ok, impressive! I'd love this level of customization and realism (although we're definitely hovering on the brink of Uncanny Valley here) but it's not going to happen in SL unless they rebuild the avatar skeleton from the ground up, AND insist upon a standard for mesh heads and bodies from creators.

Also, what are the processing costs of this?

11 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

A multiplayer mode is supposedly on the roadmap after release. Like all games, the players are demanding it. What it'll look like is anyone's guess (likely smaller-scale).

It would surely have to be.

11 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

It's got high requirements (a 3070 is listed as the recommended, at least at the moment), but that's to be expected. It's Unreal 5. Games like this (and the Sims) drive a lot of Twitch and YouTube engagement, though, and popular content creators are usually on the best available hardware at any given time (sometimes sponsored by the companies to push it), so I'm sure at least some will be nudged to upgrade along the way.

Yeah. Implementation of something like this would decimate SL, at least for the foreseeable future. 5 or 10 years down the road, perhaps even "toasters" would be capable of this kind of processing power, but for now, it's just not feasible, sadly.

Honestly, I'd just settle for the improved lighting.

[AmeliaJ08]

9 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

These animations can also include scale atribute, which SL's animation system currently doesn't have.

Oooooh! been wanting this

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

(although we're definitely hovering on the brink of Uncanny Valley here)

That might be why they offer a few different modes to play in. As mentioned above, you can "cartoonize" everything to bring it in line with other competitors and sidestep the realism.

 

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Also, what are the processing costs of this?

Couldn't tell ya! That's way above my head.

 

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yeah. Implementation of something like this would decimate SL, at least for the foreseeable future.

Not entirely. That grab and pull face design system is almost exactly what's offered by Black Desert Online (an MMO released in 2014/2015). The Sims 4 (also 2014) also has that ability in their creation tool. The main difference here is they're using a more powerful engine, which I doubt we'll ever be using in SL.

[Cynite00]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

As demoed .. yes. Dead. Long dead and not even useful.

 

I want to be able to create bones and animations for my projects in Blender and import them intact into SL. I don't want to have to script even a simple offset and hinge mechanism to open a chest, when it can be easily done with bone animation, and allows far more options, like turning it also into a Mimic , and add more animations like biting, chasing, fleeing, reacting, etc

[Love Zhaoying]

* reads posts and plays "Guess the Alt" *

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Implementation of something like this would decimate SL, at least for the foreseeable future.

10% isn't terrible.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 hours ago, Cynite00 said:

I want to be able to create bones and animations for my projects in Blender and import them intact into SL. I don't want to have to script even a simple offset and hinge mechanism to open a chest, when it can be easily done with bone animation, and allows far more options, like turning it also into a Mimic , and add more animations like biting, chasing, fleeing, reacting, etc

Aaaaaand kissing?

Biting, chasing and fleeing all sound terribly annoying. How about some NICE ones?

Hmm? HMMMMMMM?

Edited September 7 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Janet Voxel]

8 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I see this game as not just competition for The Sims, but for 2nd life as well.

Yeah, it will be in a tangential way. I actually did play around with it and thought it was an impressive beta. My first thought when I saw it was ‘wasn’t second life going to do that? It’s the same concept as puppetry on SL.’

I have no idea why, but it just…disappeared. My guess is the default SL skeleton just doesn’t have enough bones in the head for that kind of animation. Just making a good head like Lelutka do a smile turns your avatar into the joker. So maybe it just isn’t possible in second life in its current state? Maybe it’s because SL can’t handle something that real time? I dunno.

I just know it got a pretty good reaction from people that tried the demo and someone beat LL to the punch.

 

[Cynite00]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Aaaaaand kissing?

Biting, chasing and feeling all sound terribly annoying. How about some NICE ones?

Hmm? HMMMMMMM?

Sure why not.

[Raven Huntsman]

Has LL mentioned support for blendshapes/morphs/shape keys (vertex animation) at all? 

[Nalates Urriah]

7 hours ago, Raven Huntsman said:

Has LL mentioned support for blendshapes/morphs/shape keys (vertex animation) at all? 

SL has morphing for the system avatar. It did not get adapted to work with with "fitted mesh" add-ons.

For freedom of creation by end users morphing bodies and faces is way restrictive compared to what we have. One can only use 0-100% of whatever the designer included and other parts relate to the morph in restricted ways. I think morphing would also increase the data transfer load. The system AV morphs were built into the viewers, so one download by everyone when they installed the viewer.

I doubt we would ever see vertex animation in SL. LL was very emphatic about not allowing mesh flipping, quick swapping between meshs to fake animation.

[Rondure]

Thanks everyone for your help!